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Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A button barrel can be a good barrel. Not trying to poke at Benchmark, Hart, Shilen etc...

What we have found along with a host of other shooters etc...is that the consistency from barrel to barrel with twist uniformity etc...is better with the cut than with the button for reasons stated by 264charlie.

One comment made about so what Bartlein and Krieger own benchrest etc...

Besides those matches take a look at the European F-Class Championships shot late last year in the U.K. If memory serves me right 9 out of the top 10 guns in the F-Class Open had a cut rifled barrel on them. The top 6 place finishers had our barrels on the guns. 9 out of top 10 where all cut rifled barrels. Only one button barrel. Why? It goes back to consistency and uniformity.

European F-Class Championship Results & Equipment

Click on the above link.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

Frank,
If Bartlein barrels didn't exist... what would you have on your rifles?
whistle.gif
</div></div>

If we didn't exist what would I put on my guns?

Krieger, Obermeyer (if I could get my hands on one). If I couldn't get one of those I would have to sit down and think about it before I pick another.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A button barrel can be a good barrel. Not trying to poke at Benchmark, Hart, Shilen etc...

What we have found along with a host of other shooters etc...is that the consistency from barrel to barrel with twist uniformity etc...is better with the cut than with the button for reasons stated by 264charlie.

One comment made about so what Bartlein and Krieger own benchrest etc...

Besides those matches take a look at the European F-Class Championships shot late last year in the U.K. If memory serves me right 9 out of the top 10 guns in the F-Class Open had a cut rifled barrel on them. The top 6 place finishers had our barrels on the guns. 9 out of top 10 where all cut rifled barrels. Only one button barrel. Why? It goes back to consistency and uniformity.

European F-Class Championship Results & Equipment

Click on the above link.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

Frank,
If Bartlein barrels didn't exist... what would you have on your rifles?
whistle.gif
</div></div>

If we didn't exist what would I put on my guns?

Krieger, Obermeyer (if I could get my hands on one). If I couldn't get one of those I would have to sit down and think about it before I pick another.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
</div></div>

Thanks Frank, I've always tried to get a Bartlein first and if I couldn't get one quick enough I'd move to a Krieger. Never tried an Obermeyer though.

Currently I have a Krieger on my 6.5 Creedmoor but I'll likely start looking for a Bartlein at about 3k just to have it ready.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In fact, just a few years ago, Shilen was the darling of the group shooters
</div></div>

I posted up on a certain other forum about a shilen blank for a build and apparently they're garbage now lol.

Most of the f class and benchrest guys I meet up here are into cut rifled barrels but not all. Interesting topic to say the least.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

If its 17,20 cal I would get a shilen nothing else.

Any other caliber take your pick.
I have not fired a gain twist Bartlein but its my next try.

30+ in longer barrels with narrow profiles like a light palma I prefer cut barrels. I have a shilen palma that shoots the best and I'm saving it for state level matches

The Obermeyer 5r barrels tend to give you more pressure but they last longer. If your going to push the velocity envelope with a super magnum of sorts look at a more conventional depth of rifling. Its hard to get anything smaller than 6.5 from him. Its hard to beat a 30 cal Obermeyer for a 308 or 7mm 6.5mm in a 308 to 30-06 size case. Boots can cut steel and its harder to get good steel these days in the lot sizes custom barrel makers would like to purchase.

Hart makes a consistantly accurate barrel. I asked many shooters at the supershoot if they could only buy one barrel to shoot there, most replied Hart. Which stunned me because of the number of cut barrels being fired. That bunch can be real trendy.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I don't have the experience with as many different barrels as some of you guys here on the forum but I have had really good results with a 20" Lilja and a 24" Lothar. These were the first two precision barrels that I owned and both are tack drivers. Fortunately, there will be a third make being added to my collection very soon as I was lucky enough to speak with Boots this week and he actually had a blank in stock sitting on the shelf that I was looking for. So hopefully not too long from now there will be a 30" obermeyer in the safe. If it were not for Boots having the blank in stock, it would have been a toss up between Bartlein and Krieger. Although I have a funny feeling both of them will be added sooner than later.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I'm telling you guy's, Brux is not as popular but I was astounded by the accuracy of mine that's mated to a Surgeon 591 action. Hardly any copper fouling, if any. If you bore scoped a 4-groove Krieger and a 4-groove Brux you could not tell the difference.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

X-fan... short, to the point. Mostly I agree with what you said. Every once in a while the top producers will all turn out a dud... How they respond to the dud is what will set them apart down the road.

Frank...Thanks for the 2011 F-Class equipment link. What the link confirmed for me most was that my F-Class Barnard Action seems be a decent choice.
smile.gif


Jeffvn
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

While there are lots of good F-Class actions out there I do not think you can do better than the Barnard. It may be the tightest action in existence.
My 6mmbr is built on one and I could not be happier.

During my last build I asked my gunsmith about bad barrels and he said they are very rare these days. During my dozens of builds I have never had a bad one.
You are right to make sure your gunsmith and the barrel maker have a good relationship (who are you?). If things go poorly you get into another barrel quickly. I have seen Kreiger replace a barrel (in a situation I was sure to be shooter/rifle induced) and do so without hesitation....Got my attention!
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.

Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
</div></div>
Not true at all.
Cut barrels look pretty crude through a bore scope compared to something from a top button maker.
Actually you might want to look inside Dan Lilja's barrels with a bore scope....No barrel I have ever looked in is more precisely finished. Dan's attention to detail is obvious through the bore scope.
No..I am not saying they shoot better... Just saying if you want perfect finish look no farther.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.

Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
</div></div>
Not true at all.
Cut barrels look pretty crude through a bore scope compared to something from a top button maker.
Actually you might want to look inside Dan Lilja's barrels with a bore scope....No barrel I have ever looked in is more precisely finished. Dan's attention to detail is obvious through the bore scope.
No..I am not saying they shoot better... Just saying if you want perfect finish look no farther. </div></div>

What is your definition of crude looking in a cut barrel? Most people who look at a cut barrel the first time or even a button barrel for that matter don't know what they are even looking at. Yes they can look different from a button in some cases and in some cases not.

Have you ever measured the surface finish of the bores in barrels from different manufacturers and compared the readings on the micro finish (surface finish) in them?

If not then how do you come to your conclusion?

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I have had Bartleins and Kriegers. Love them both equally.....

A little off topic:

How did so many of the great barrel makers end up in the great state of Wisconsin?

Sorry in advance for the sidetrack.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

How did so many of the great barrel makers end up in the great state of Wisconsin?

. </div></div>

I have wondered that myself, my guess is that they were offshoots of each other
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I use Bartlein, Krieger, Brux, and Broughton.
Haven't bought a Broughton in quite a few years, and have two Brux barrels.
I have more Krieger's than anything, but I expect to be adding more Bartlein's in the near future.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had Bartleins and Kriegers. Love them both equally.....

A little off topic:

How did so many of the great barrel makers end up in the great state of Wisconsin?

Sorry in advance for the sidetrack. </div></div>

Well Boots started making barrels around 40 years ago. At one time Rock did work for Boots. Rock left Boots and started up himself then.

Krieger and Boots we're shooting buddies but never worked for one another etc... like most people think. Krieger had a general machine shop. Always wanted to play with making barrels etc...Boots helped him find a drill, reamer and rifler but that was the extent of it. That's how Krieger started.

Ernie at Badger Barrels if memory serves me right worked for Boots at one time as well.

Ourselves we worked at Krieger. Parted ways for different reasons. That's how Bartlein Barrels got started.

Tim North at Broughton purchased Harold Broughton's button rifling shop out of N.M. He lived here in Wisconsin. So moved shop to WI.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.

Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
</div></div>
Not true at all.
Cut barrels look pretty crude through a bore scope compared to something from a top button maker.
Actually you might want to look inside Dan Lilja's barrels with a bore scope....No barrel I have ever looked in is more precisely finished. Dan's attention to detail is obvious through the bore scope.
No..I am not saying they shoot better... Just saying if you want perfect finish look no farther. </div></div>

I wonder about this as well. I have two Bartlein, 2 Schneiders, a Lilja, and two Brux barrels. The cut rifles barrels all appear to have cutter marks running the length of the grooves. Small marks that I am sure won't matter...but you can see them. On the button barrles, the grooves are as smooth as glass.

I have always wondered if that surface finish in the grooves made a difference.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

Seeing the Obermeyer barrels discussed, I have wondered about them for a good while. I have one being used in a build now but in speaking with several smiths on the Hide, they would have preferred other makers over an Obermeyer as they didn't feel the Obermeyer barrels were as "finished" and that they often required more work to get to shoot well...

I'm no expert and I couldn't begin to explain why or how...but why would one maker's barrel require more or less work to get to shoot and be "finished"...
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What is your definition of crude looking in a cut barrel? Most people who look at a cut barrel the first time or even a button barrel for that matter don't know what they are even looking at. Yes they can look different from a button in some cases and in some cases not.

Have you ever measured the surface finish of the bores in barrels from different manufacturers and compared the readings on the micro finish (surface finish) in them?

If not then how do you come to your conclusion?

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

Frank,
I'm talking about looking in the barrel with a top quality fairly high magnification bore scope...No measurements.

I found this out while at my gunsmiths place while I raved about how well my Kreiger 6mmbr shot....And (of course) how I need more Kreiger barrels in my collection! Always enjoying keeping me honest, my smith pulled out his bore scope and we had a look inside, then looked inside a few other barrels. The Lilja was in a class of its own with ZERO visible machine marks. I can't tell you what magnification we were looking at.
We looked inside another more popular brand cut barrel (not yours of course) that looked downright crude inside.
Clearly what I saw in the bore scope makes no difference in accuracy.


If you want to send me a barrel I would proudly look inside then to test it for a few thousand rounds!
smile.gif
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

X-Fan, I too have had many Kreiger's and have also noticed the "cut marks" in all the bores. I called Kreiger and asked about this, I was told they are there for a specific reason. Kreiger believes that a glass smooth bore finish tends to pick up more copper than a slightly rougher bore. That is why they dont finish lap their barrels with as fine of a laping compound. I have to beleve them b/c my barrels never pick up copper. Just my .02
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

The finish is in the direction of the bullet travel from the cutting tool. Finish lapping it will polish it etc....Take what you hear with a grain of salt on the lapping compound number. If done with the right type of compound etc...it will break down and get finer and finer as you use it to lap the bore.

We've randomly have taken our barrels and cut them in half and inspected the bores surface finish for smoothness. We've seen them consistently down around 3 micro finish. A cut barrel might look rough but all your seeing is the lay of the finish. Hence my comment earlier in a previous post. I've even had customers do to this to our barrels as well. So it's not just me making a biased comment on the surface finish of how smooth the barrels are.

I've seen button barrels that can look like a cut barrel as well because of the finish lapping process as well.

Remember what you see with a bore scope is magnified a lot.

The first barrels we made and used for testing etc...we prelapped (this is after reaming and before rifling) rifled the barrels and didn't even finish lap it. I installed them on a rifle and tested them for accuracy and fouling with no ill effects etc.....how nice the cutter is cutting, the lot of material (steel) and how it machines has got alot to do with it as well.

There have been people who get into making barrels and take short cuts or skip processes etc...it effects the overall quality of the barrel and this applies to cut barrels, button barrels etc....

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What is your definition of crude looking in a cut barrel? Most people who look at a cut barrel the first time or even a button barrel for that matter don't know what they are even looking at. Yes they can look different from a button in some cases and in some cases not.

Have you ever measured the surface finish of the bores in barrels from different manufacturers and compared the readings on the micro finish (surface finish) in them?

If not then how do you come to your conclusion?

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

Frank,
I'm talking about looking in the barrel with a top quality fairly high magnification bore scope...No measurements.

I found this out while at my gunsmiths place while I raved about how well my Kreiger 6mmbr shot....And (of course) how I need more Kreiger barrels in my collection! Always enjoying keeping me honest, my smith pulled out his bore scope and we had a look inside, then looked inside a few other barrels. The Lilja was in a class of its own with ZERO visible machine marks. I can't tell you what magnification we were looking at.
We looked inside another more popular brand cut barrel (not yours of course) that looked downright crude inside.
Clearly what I saw in the bore scope makes no difference in accuracy.


If you want to send me a barrel I would proudly look inside then to test it for a few thousand rounds!
smile.gif

</div></div>

Read my post right before this one and hopefully it will make help as well. Yes some barrels can look crude inside both button and single point cut, broach cut etc....

If the steel was being difficult to machine or if the person making the cut barrel didn't pay attention to sharpening the tool or lapping it can look rougher more crude etc...

I didn't take no offense to what you said and hope I didn't mean it that way. There are a lot of things that some people see in barrels and don't always know what they are looking at.

I had a customer one time in the shop and he cleaned his barrel by us. He must of dry patched it say 25 times. When we bore scoped it he kept saying he was seeing pits in the bore etc...I kept telling him it was left over solvent. He didn't believe me. So I marked the outside of the barrel where the supposed pits where. I dry patched the bore and rebore scoped it. Guess what all the supposed pits magically disappeared.

Send you a barrel for you to look and test a couple of thousand rounds made me chuckle. I'll sell ya one if you want!

Thanks for your post and comments!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I thought you might get a chuckle out of that.
smile.gif


At the benchrest level of accuracy how much does the actual steel affect the outcome of a great barrel?
I understand when you get a great run of steel there is an increase in the "Hummer" factor?
Any thoughts?
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

My Krieger shoots great on my 300wm.

I dont have any fouling problems on any of my rifles, break in is important just for fouling issues alone. companies say to break in barrels for a reason.

In advance, please dont post the video that shows those idiots throwing their rifle around then shooting it, saying that's is how they break it in.
Those kinda people shouldnt breed and save the world from stupidity!

 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

Hart makes great barrels......
We all have our preferences
Chanlynn, Obermeyer, Krieger, lilja barrels
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

Of your 3 choices, here is another factor to consider and ANOTHER reason to go Bartlein. Mr. Green is a TREMENDOUS supporter of our sport. I organized a match prize table for a couple years and every time Bartlein donated w/o hesitation. In fact, I think Bartlein has supported every match in which I have participated.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I dont have any facts to give you on helping make a decision, but I will say that I have a Krieger in .308 and I couldnt ask for any better results out of it. Very nice barrel.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I have a Hart and a Kreiger. Both shoot great and will sometimes shoot 5 shot groups in the .2s, both clean up well. I am very happy with both. Wait time would be a major facter in which I would pick for my next barrel.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

"Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?"

Yes. The answer to that question is "yes." Go with whichever of those that you can get the quickest.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the_fng</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So are Shilen any good? </div></div>
Tony Boyer did pretty well with them.
smile.gif
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I have several shilen select matches that shoot as good as my kreiger. I think they were mentioned in "Secrets of the Houston Warehouse".
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

That warehouse thing should have been better documented...IDK...

For a while everybody figured Shilen was the barrel to have until the secret came out....Tony was shooting over 30,000 rounds a year....And they say benchrest shooting is easy
smile.gif


Tony...there is your magic. Shilen makes a good barrel (no doubt), but Tony was going to win with whatever barrel you gave him.

A couple of my select Shilen's could have been finished better...This is purely judged on fouling...Nothing else.
I admit this could have been reamer related.
They all have shot like a SOB though...Definitely no complaints there.
On of my Shilen rifles has the best CCB I have ever seen in a hunting rifle.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the_fng</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So are Shilen any good? </div></div>
Tony Boyer did pretty well with them.
smile.gif
</div></div>
You may want to look at when Tony was shooting Shilen. They were the top of the heep in the short range benchrest game but in recent years, well they just arent what they use to be. I would stay away if it were me, unless you were buying a unused Shilen from the 90's.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

Have had good luck with 2 Broughton 5C's.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had Bartleins and Kriegers. Love them both equally.....

A little off topic:

How did so many of the great barrel makers end up in the great state of Wisconsin?

Sorry in advance for the sidetrack. </div></div>

Well Boots started making barrels around 40 years ago. At one time Rock did work for Boots. Rock left Boots and started up himself then.

Krieger and Boots we're shooting buddies but never worked for one another etc... like most people think. Krieger had a general machine shop. Always wanted to play with making barrels etc...Boots helped him find a drill, reamer and rifler but that was the extent of it. That's how Krieger started.

Ernie at Badger Barrels if memory serves me right worked for Boots at one time as well.

Ourselves we worked at Krieger. Parted ways for different reasons. That's how Bartlein Barrels got started.

Tim North at Broughton purchased Harold Broughton's button rifling shop out of N.M. He lived here in Wisconsin. So moved shop to WI.

Later, Frank


Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

I'm pretty sure Broughton was out of Texas. I almost ordered one back in the day as a lot of people were starting to do well with them.

Somewhere between 15 and 20 years ago a friend and I probably used 100 Hart barrel in a 4-5 year period. While this was years ago it was a pretty large sample of barrels. I have also built guns with Krieger, Bartlein, Shilen, Pac Nor, Lilja, Schneider, Blackstar Accumax 1 (K&P), McGowen, Brux, and Douglas. The problem I've seen with every button rifled barrel maker except Schneider is inconsistency. The most accurate barrels I've had are Harts but so were the worst shooting barrels. I'm talking 2+ inch groups for the worst and .0XX to .1XX for the best. These weren't competition guns all in HV contours either. We used full 1.25" barrels down to #5 sporters. The lighter the contour the less likely of getting a really good shooter by a good percentage. I've switched almost exclusively to cut barrels just because of the consistency.

Just my .02
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

Hart makes a great barrel. My IBA Chandler M-40A5 came with a Hart barrel, excellent and only 20 inches. I have three OBermeyer barrels in .30 cal. One of them I had put on my first GAP built .308. The rifle is a laser. AMU Plus, 5R 1-11 twist, taper is .007. It makes for a nice heavy barrel. in the AICS unloaded it's 19 lbs. I had it cut to the length they use on their Crusader 23" 22 from the recoil lug. The other two .30 cal OBermeyers are exactly the same, except I got them 27" unfinished. They are currently still in there shipping boxes. If given a choice I will buy OBermeyer every time.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

im going with Bartlein for my current build i have heard nothing but good things about all of the above though
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

I have many Hart's and Kreigers. Both manufacturer's barrels provide results beyond my abilities to discern the difference...

In fact, I have two receivers in each shop as I type. I have to tell you, I haven't lost a minute's sleep wondering if I should have sent all four to one manufacturer over the other.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

Find a good gunsmith, just as important as barrels. I've only shot benchmark, rock, lilja, and Douglas. Most people give me shit on Douglas but my gunsmith told me try it and am very happy. Next buy will be krieger.
 
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RustyShackelferd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Find a good gunsmith, just as important as barrels. </div></div>

This matters too!!! Get a reputable gunsmith!
 
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