Has anyone done a good comparison of the different rifles available for CMP shooting?
- Thread starter achancesw
- Start date
Which discipline? The different matches are layed out in the CMP rule book.
ETA- the M1903 is my favorite service rifle, with the M1 a close second... I own far more of each than I would care to admit. They are accurate, but for pure accuracy the Swedish mauser with M41 ammunition or the Swiss 96/11, G11, K11 and K31 are in another class. The 1910 Ross in 303 British is damned accurate as well.
ETA- the M1903 is my favorite service rifle, with the M1 a close second... I own far more of each than I would care to admit. They are accurate, but for pure accuracy the Swedish mauser with M41 ammunition or the Swiss 96/11, G11, K11 and K31 are in another class. The 1910 Ross in 303 British is damned accurate as well.
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just the vintage sniper rifles
The book tells be what I can use, yes but I'm more interested in performance and pricing.
As far as comparison is concerned, be prepared for sticker shock when it comes to the cost of doing business.
Look at the Quantico Rifle Club Vintage Sniper Match past standings for the rifles used.
ETA- a real 91/30 Sniper will be your cheapest mil-surp for this game. I have one, ergos suck badly. Love my No1 Mk 4 T but my L42A1 is my favorite...but converted too late for the Vintage Sniper Match.
There are replica 03A4s out there at varying price points.
Look at the Quantico Rifle Club Vintage Sniper Match past standings for the rifles used.
ETA- a real 91/30 Sniper will be your cheapest mil-surp for this game. I have one, ergos suck badly. Love my No1 Mk 4 T but my L42A1 is my favorite...but converted too late for the Vintage Sniper Match.
There are replica 03A4s out there at varying price points.
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Getting Started in CMP Competition - Part 2: Selecting Your First Rifle - The Truth About Guns
So you’ve decided you want to compete in Civilian Marksmanship Program matches, be it at local clubs or with me at the national matches at Camp Perry. It all starts with the rifle. This article will explain the criteria for selecting a rifle that will give you a competitive edge in the matches...
www.thetruthaboutguns.com
That article is fine for the military rifle matches...the Vintage Sniper Matches have specific requirements for scopes, etc. Replicas of the 03A4 and milsurp 91/30 PU rifles can be had without breaking the bank. The replica Weaver 330 scopes that were first used on 03A4 replicas were trash.
You could get an M1C or M1D from the CMP and a replica M82 or M84, but it won’t be as competitive as an 8X M1903 sniper in competition.
I agree with the article that the K31 is a fine rifle...the earlier Schmidt Rubin rifles are a smidge more accurate.
A good starting point is establishing a budget and go from there.
You could get an M1C or M1D from the CMP and a replica M82 or M84, but it won’t be as competitive as an 8X M1903 sniper in competition.
I agree with the article that the K31 is a fine rifle...the earlier Schmidt Rubin rifles are a smidge more accurate.
A good starting point is establishing a budget and go from there.
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I have shot the 03A4, 03 marine Unertl, top mount PE Mosin, Finnish SOV, Pu Mosin, k31/43, and M41b in vintage sniper cmp match games.... the Top 3 (for me) are the 03A4 and M41b (equal) and the top mount Mosin. I believe if the 03a4 had the 4x scope it would be the best of all. That’s just me. My go to weapon if I had to choose would be the 03A4 with a Lyman Alaskan. Thing is a laser. However, I personally enjoy the foreign weapons collecting and shooting though.
Preferred platform for CMP vintage sniper rifle competitions is highly subjective . Cost can vary a lot as well, depending on optics.
I happen to think the following are probably the best 3 flavors, but others will surely have different opinions.
Top: M1903 with 8X Leatherwood scope is used by most of the top shooters. I got mine for $2500. I have won gold, silver, and bronze
medals with that rifle since I started competing with it in 2012, and all of the local guys I shoot with use this platform.
Middle: Finnish M39 with 4x Accumont repo scope (aka 'M39SOV'). Not often seen at the CMP matches, but one was used
to tie the top shooter at Camp Perry a few years ago, I think 2016. Sometimes one can be found or built for $1500 or so.
I sold the rifle seen in this picture to fund another build without ever using it, but the new owner says its very accurate.
Getting the scope mount correctly mounted is a challenge, and its best to start with a rifle that was already drilled for a scope mount.
Bottom: Swedish M41B w/ original 4x AJACK scope. One of these rifles was used to win the first CMP vintage sniper match
back in 2011, but the downside is the lack of windage adjustment for those 600 yard shots in the wind. For compeition,
a better scope is the Weaver K4 that has windage adjustment. It is allowed on this platform. Cost for a real M41B is $3k plus.
Honorable mention goes to the M1903A4 flavor with 2.5x Lyman scope with a fine crosshair reticle. Along with an M91/30, a reproduction 1903A4 is probably the lowest price of entry, as a repo 1903A4 can often found for about $1200. (Obviously a real 1903A4 is about 2 or 3 times more, depending on condition and configuration).
Regardless of platform, the rifle needs to shoot about 1 MOA with its preferred match ammo to win medals at this match, and the shooter needs to be able to make correct wind calls at 600 yards. I'm still working on my wind calls...
I will also note that over the past two years I have seen some truly excellent match scores with
guys shooting semi-auto M1D or M1C Garands, with either a 2.2X M84 scope or 4X Kollmorgen.
The two guys in this picture are top-level shooters who have won the event at the National Matches
from time to time, and their team score of 390-12X shows that the shooter matters way more than
the platform. To encourage the use of M1C/M1D Garands, CMP offers separate medals under a
"semi-auto sniper rifle" class, but I have only competed in the "bolt-action" class with my 1903.
thecmp.org
The cost of reproduction M1D versus a real, documented one is significant, and even more so for an M1C.
My 2cts.
I happen to think the following are probably the best 3 flavors, but others will surely have different opinions.
Top: M1903 with 8X Leatherwood scope is used by most of the top shooters. I got mine for $2500. I have won gold, silver, and bronze
medals with that rifle since I started competing with it in 2012, and all of the local guys I shoot with use this platform.
Middle: Finnish M39 with 4x Accumont repo scope (aka 'M39SOV'). Not often seen at the CMP matches, but one was used
to tie the top shooter at Camp Perry a few years ago, I think 2016. Sometimes one can be found or built for $1500 or so.
I sold the rifle seen in this picture to fund another build without ever using it, but the new owner says its very accurate.
Getting the scope mount correctly mounted is a challenge, and its best to start with a rifle that was already drilled for a scope mount.
Bottom: Swedish M41B w/ original 4x AJACK scope. One of these rifles was used to win the first CMP vintage sniper match
back in 2011, but the downside is the lack of windage adjustment for those 600 yard shots in the wind. For compeition,
a better scope is the Weaver K4 that has windage adjustment. It is allowed on this platform. Cost for a real M41B is $3k plus.
Honorable mention goes to the M1903A4 flavor with 2.5x Lyman scope with a fine crosshair reticle. Along with an M91/30, a reproduction 1903A4 is probably the lowest price of entry, as a repo 1903A4 can often found for about $1200. (Obviously a real 1903A4 is about 2 or 3 times more, depending on condition and configuration).
Regardless of platform, the rifle needs to shoot about 1 MOA with its preferred match ammo to win medals at this match, and the shooter needs to be able to make correct wind calls at 600 yards. I'm still working on my wind calls...
I will also note that over the past two years I have seen some truly excellent match scores with
guys shooting semi-auto M1D or M1C Garands, with either a 2.2X M84 scope or 4X Kollmorgen.
The two guys in this picture are top-level shooters who have won the event at the National Matches
from time to time, and their team score of 390-12X shows that the shooter matters way more than
the platform. To encourage the use of M1C/M1D Garands, CMP offers separate medals under a
"semi-auto sniper rifle" class, but I have only competed in the "bolt-action" class with my 1903.
Think an M1 Cannot Shoot Well in the VSTM? - Civilian Marksmanship Program
By Andrew Hall From the Garand Collector’s Association Journal We are a little embarrassed to admit that the exploits of two shooters at the 2018 D-Day Matches at the CMP ‘s Talladega Marksmanship Park were not noticed until recently. In the Vintage Sniper Team Match, only three teams fired...
thecmp.org
The cost of reproduction M1D versus a real, documented one is significant, and even more so for an M1C.
My 2cts.
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The problem is we're talking in a lot of generalities... Comparing real sniper rifles of the era most are capable of shooting on par with any other. However, that isn't to say that some don't shoot better or worse, and that some reproduction sniper models can't outshoot the real thing.
What I have seen repeatedly from looking at scores is that the 1903a1 topped with an 8x Unertl usually almost always walks away with the top spot. There's a reason for this and it isn't because the 1903a1 is a more inherently accurate rifle than any of the others... Shooters skill is always the most important factor, but an 8x scope is going to allow the shooter to see the target better and that makes a big difference, especially when you're shooting against rifles topped with 2.5x or 3.5x scopes. There's a reason the military uses 10x and higher powered scopes despite most sniper shots still being taken within 600 meters or less.
I have 3 sniper rifles, all reproductions... I have a 1903a4 I commissioned that shoots regularly around 1.25 MOA with handloads. A Mosin PU sniper that I shimmed and sanded to improve the accuracy and will give me 1 MOA groups with 182gr PPU all day. And a Lee Enfield No4 (T) that I just took possession of. (I haven't had an opportunity to shoot the faux-(T) yet, but I have high hopes for it as it was converted and re-barreled with a Criterion by Bruce Dow and the stock was fitted by Brian Dick... The test shots he did are very promising.) I would argue that any of these could compete on the line but I have no illusions that I would beat a good shooter with a good 1903a1 without a healthy dose of luck that day.
What I have seen repeatedly from looking at scores is that the 1903a1 topped with an 8x Unertl usually almost always walks away with the top spot. There's a reason for this and it isn't because the 1903a1 is a more inherently accurate rifle than any of the others... Shooters skill is always the most important factor, but an 8x scope is going to allow the shooter to see the target better and that makes a big difference, especially when you're shooting against rifles topped with 2.5x or 3.5x scopes. There's a reason the military uses 10x and higher powered scopes despite most sniper shots still being taken within 600 meters or less.
I have 3 sniper rifles, all reproductions... I have a 1903a4 I commissioned that shoots regularly around 1.25 MOA with handloads. A Mosin PU sniper that I shimmed and sanded to improve the accuracy and will give me 1 MOA groups with 182gr PPU all day. And a Lee Enfield No4 (T) that I just took possession of. (I haven't had an opportunity to shoot the faux-(T) yet, but I have high hopes for it as it was converted and re-barreled with a Criterion by Bruce Dow and the stock was fitted by Brian Dick... The test shots he did are very promising.) I would argue that any of these could compete on the line but I have no illusions that I would beat a good shooter with a good 1903a1 without a healthy dose of luck that day.
The Mosin will be the cheapest way to go (especially these days) and as long as it has a good barrel can be made an excellent shooter with some shimming and trigger work. The M96 is a great shooter but that is arguably due to the round. If you have the money, I'd recommend the K31... Excellent rifles and shooters no matter how you look at it.
The CMP rules regarding the K31 is that only the WWII sniper rifle configurations are allowed, which were the models K31/42 or K31/43....and that's a rare rifle ($2k or $3k or so - if you can find one) They are really more of a collector piece given the scarcity.
See page 56 of CMP rule book: https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf
A few K31/43s were sold a while back, but IMO it is not a competitive design as the original 1.8x and 2.8x scopes are basically a POS... The FfK-55 (of 1955) is in a different league and far more advanced, but its not legal for CMP matches, which limit rifles to 1953 or before.
www.classicfirearms.com
The cheapest option is probably a M91/30 or a repo M1903A4, usually one or two for sale on gunbroker any given month. Sometimes a repo M41 built on a M96 can be found, but quality of the mounting system will be related to the skills of the gunsmith who made it...
As far as match ammo is concerned, its readily available and affordable in 30-06, the other calibers are more pricey and less available.
See page 56 of CMP rule book: https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf
A few K31/43s were sold a while back, but IMO it is not a competitive design as the original 1.8x and 2.8x scopes are basically a POS... The FfK-55 (of 1955) is in a different league and far more advanced, but its not legal for CMP matches, which limit rifles to 1953 or before.
Swiss K31/43 Sniper Rifle - 7.5x55 caliber - Very Good Condition
The Swiss experimented with scoped sniper rifles during World War II, and the results were the K31/42 and the K31/43. Only a couple thousand rifles were made between the two models, and they were only considered a partial success. Ultimately they were replaced by the ZfK-55 a decade after the...
www.classicfirearms.com
The cheapest option is probably a M91/30 or a repo M1903A4, usually one or two for sale on gunbroker any given month. Sometimes a repo M41 built on a M96 can be found, but quality of the mounting system will be related to the skills of the gunsmith who made it...
As far as match ammo is concerned, its readily available and affordable in 30-06, the other calibers are more pricey and less available.
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OP, I would make sure you become familiar with the Vintage Sniper Match rules and then decide how much money you are willing to throw at the proposition to get you where you want to go. Know going in that there isn’t an inexpensive turn key solution. A cheaper alternative is to shoot the As-Issued Military Rifle Matches.
Take the time to conduct your research...know how to spot a fake 91/30 sniper from a real one. Also, the PU scope reticle moves in the FOV as you adjust...real ones had the armorer zero for windage via the mount. Learn that a lot of 03A4 replicas were built on reclaimed drill rifle receivers...they were coded as scrap...most were lightly demilled, some weren’t. Be ready to accept the fact that the rifle you bought may not shoot as good as it looks...that is the cost of doing business. It may take more than one rifle to get one that shoots to your level of acceptance.
Good luck in your quest...decide first how far down the rabbit hole you are willing to go.
Take the time to conduct your research...know how to spot a fake 91/30 sniper from a real one. Also, the PU scope reticle moves in the FOV as you adjust...real ones had the armorer zero for windage via the mount. Learn that a lot of 03A4 replicas were built on reclaimed drill rifle receivers...they were coded as scrap...most were lightly demilled, some weren’t. Be ready to accept the fact that the rifle you bought may not shoot as good as it looks...that is the cost of doing business. It may take more than one rifle to get one that shoots to your level of acceptance.
Good luck in your quest...decide first how far down the rabbit hole you are willing to go.
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