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Rifle Scopes HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I will give you an example of the attention Bushnell is giving this...

They just called me ASAP, I mean less than 1/2 hour of posting the image and they are seeking answers from the engineers. They know it is a coating thing, but they want to know what the colors are answering.
Will say I compared it to other optics in my stable and the main difference is the color, the purple versus a baby blue which does not stand out as much.

I can't give you anything more than to say, Bushnell is on it, and chasing it down for you...
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Frank,

great feedback
smile.gif
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Damn Frank that is exactly it, but at Hardrock it looks really nasty when the suns out shooting at those white targets. That picture is spot on.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Is this limited to the HDMR or does the CA exist on the new Tatical Elites aka 6-24 FFP G2 reticle as well?
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Thank you for taking the time to take the photo and getting Bushnell's attention.

I found some CA blue/purple fringing in my HDMR and posted about it earlier in this thread.

Not going to get crazy over it, but glad this was brought up. Happy to see the manufacturers take this site seriously.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

The past three days, I have been down at a sniper course at academi aka BW. Ive put my HDMR to good use on my 300WM and its holding up just fine. Their is a very very very slight CA but I have still been getting first round hits from 100 to 800 so far.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

LL, thanks for putting the image up. That's about what I saw the first time I had it out. Today, it wasn't nearly as bad, but the sunlight was different, as was the range and the background, which was also more dead-on and less oblique than the first day. It definitely doesn't like edge to edge contrasts, which would be a huge problem on certain targets at distance.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Ive been really interested in this scope but have yet to spend any time behind one on a range..does this CA just change natural colors or does it obscure resolution and targeting ability?
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

lowlight, thanks for taking an image and posting it here.

I was looking at these as a replacement for a 308 scope, but this thread has definitely made me wonder if I would get a faulty one or not.

For the people saying that this is to be expected for a scope at this price, that's just completely unacceptable. for most people (people who aren't on this board 24/7 like we are), 3-$400 for an optic is the most they spend. maybe if they want to go all out they get a nice leupold VX-3 for $800.

at the 1500+ price point optics should be defect free. Im sure im not the only person here to have that thought.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive been really interested in this scope but have yet to spend any time behind one on a range..does this CA just change natural colors or does it obscure resolution and targeting ability? </div></div>

It adds color shift (technically, it fails to remove some or all of the color shift caused when white light passes through a lens and is broken into something akin to a rainbow) to sharp contrasty edges which also has the effect of making them appear less sharp, almost fuzzy at times.

If you're shooting MOA white steel plates on a bright day, it might be annoying, but shouldn't keep you from hitting center mass.

If you're trying to find small plates in a brushy background, it could be very problematic, because everything will have a colored shadow or fringe making it that much harder to distinguish objects.

If you're doing the dot drill, each dot will seem slightly oval and have a colored edge to it. Where is your real POA supposed to be?

If you use your scope for more than just shooting, like those who spend long periods of time glassing, hunters, LEO or military, it could be particularly fatiguing to the eye.

Like a lot of things, the more you get educated, the more sensitive you become. But then there are people who just don't notice or don't care. They're not wrong, just different. Kind of like the guy who never cleans the inside of his windshield. Drives me nuts and he doesn't even notice.

John
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

It is my understanding that the HD part of this is supposed to directly affect the extent and appearance of this aberration. I never noticed this in the field and likely would never have noticed if not for this thread causing me to pick a white target at close range in bright sunlight and look for it. I don't foresee it bothering me at all when shooting targets at distance in the competitions.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I finally got a chance to shoot some TTL pics.

This image is through a HDMR TRemOR2 set at 21x. Target is just a couple houses away. The fringing in the photo is only slightly worse than with my eye. The human eye has a better ability to "white balance" than camera sensors. I also have to deal with the optics on a point and shoot camera, because the rig I am using won't support my DSLR.

When looking through with the naked eye, there is nothing that would distract me from hitting the target. However it is there and it is NOT there on either the Elite 4200 Tactical or Elite Tactical 6-24x that I have had pass through here. I took the 4200 out and pointed it at the same targets today and no CA was detectable with the naked eye. I didn't set the rig up to take photos because the 4200 is attached to a rifle and the neighbors already think I am nuts. When I get out to the range I will.

DSC00652.jpg


I fired this photo off to my Bushnell contact.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Good pic; thanks. Do you think you can take a pic of the same view with a different scope (say, your Vortex razor) on 20X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I finally got a chance to shoot some TTL pics.

This image is through a HDMR TRemOR2 set at 21x. Target is just a couple houses away. The fringing in the photo is only slightly worse than with my eye. The human eye has a better ability to "white balance" than camera sensors. I also have to deal with the optics on a point and shoot camera, because the rig I am using won't support my DSLR.

When looking through with the naked eye, there is nothing that would distract me from hitting the target. However it is there and it is NOT there on either the Elite 4200 Tactical or Elite Tactical 6-24x that I have had pass through here. I took the 4200 out and pointed it at the same targets today and no CA was detectable with the naked eye. I didn't set the rig up to take photos because the 4200 is attached to a rifle and the neighbors already think I am nuts. When I get out to the range I will.

DSC00652.jpg


I fired this photo off to my Bushnell contact. </div></div>
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Does this aberration depend at all upon the power the scope is on or is it there at all powers just perhaps not as easy to see ?

Sorry for all the questions and such. I am learning things here.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Magnification definitely makes it more noticeable. However I don't know if it increases it in this scope or not.

Parallax also makes it more noticeable. When you have the parallax dialed in the CA follows the lines closer, which makes it less noticeable.

When I took the photos above both scopes were set on 100Y although the target was closer.

I do want to add that I am making observations based on my experience with rifle scopes and camera optics. I know absolutely nothing about designing optical systems.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Superb photos, sir. That's precisely what I've seen through each of the one's I've had.

By way of my update, I got a call this AM from Bushnell's National Sales Director or LE who confirmed that my scope is indeed being given a going over in the lab and that I'll hear from a gentleman at Bushnell as soon as he has data to pass on. It's pretty clear now that, thanks to you all, this issue, such as it appears to be, will get taken care of.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: copdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Superb photos, sir. That's precisely what I've seen through each of the one's I've had.

By way of my update, I got a call this AM from Bushnell's National Sales Director or LE who confirmed that my scope is indeed being given a going over in the lab and that I'll hear from a gentleman at Bushnell as soon as he has data to pass on. It's pretty clear now that, thanks to you all, this issue, such as it appears to be, will get taken care of. </div></div>

awesome news! i think its also safe to assume that you have found something that appears to be common across several so they want to find the root cause.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">copdoc,

.... my post was pointed more at all the guys chiming in saying, "Mine's fine", as if that proves something. My point is that we don't know anything other than you, and I and a few other guys got bad scopes. There are factual reasons. We may or may not like them.

</div></div>

...hmmm mine's fine!
ha just busting ur balls
.
.
.
But seriously, mine is fine
grin.gif


and I say that with all the other guys chiming in saying it is fine, so the guys who are on the fence about getting one arn't scared away by a few that slipped by QC.

Regards,
_DT
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Mine was fine too until I actually looked for it hahahaha

Pics with me pretty centered on the scope at 75 yards
HDMR75yards.jpg


I intentionally offset a bit here at same distance
HDMROffsetAt75yards.jpg


Here is a 200 yard shot with being fairly centered
HDMR200yards.jpg


Here is me with a 200 yard shot offset a bit and a little camera movement during snap of shot. You can definitely see the CA here.
200yardsOffset.jpg
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARPredatorHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mine was fine too until I actually looked for it hahahaha
</div></div>

haha, now I have to go try looking for it. Dam it ARP
grin.gif


That also might be a good sign that your parallax is set at the wrong range??

Regards,
DT
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Same setting both pics. Taken one right after the other.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

HOLY DOGFUCK, I just realized i have a massive issue with chromazone abortion in mine too. WTF

ar15-sightpicture.jpg
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

If anyone here has an HDMR that they aren't happy with on account of CA like ARPRedator posted hit me up I'll buy it. Especially if you got it for the super-deal price Horus was selling them for.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I am still trying to determine what the level of fringing is compared to similarly priced optics as well as higher and lower tiers.

I can tell you that the chromatic aberration you are seeing in the photos and that I am seeing with my naked eye in the scope is not to a degree that it is going to turn a hit into a miss.

I am much more concerned with durability and tracking than a relatively minor issue.

Bushnell is looking into this and working hard to determine if it is a problem or not. They are talking to current military users as well as those of us in the LE and civvie world. I am pretty impressed so far with the level of interest they have taken in this.

Hopefully I will have more to report back in a couple days. I am going to try to get some more observation time with the scopes tonight, but I am still waiting on rings for the HDMR before I can start the shooting evaluation.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

btw, the last two pics of mine are from a NightForce NXS
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I have a Schmidt Bender that came back from a repair/objective assembly replacement with the same type of chromatic aberration: A bright yellow edge around the scope image that flares up in bright sunlight:
IMG_3876.jpg

IMG_3874.jpg


It's much brighter in real life, and the yellow rim is visible around the entire scope image. It won't turn a hit into a miss, but one would expect better quality from supposedly top-quality and highest-cost optics, especially after being sent to them for repair and with a request to fix an original glass quality issue from the factory.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Still waiting to get my rifle back from my smith. But looked through mine today, has the same CA as the others posted here. Tag to see what Bushnell finds out,,,
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Before I lost the light this evening I took photos through a couple different scopes. I think you will be a little surprised at the results. I will post them up tomorrow morning after I get them tagged and reduced.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you will be a little surprised at the results. </div></div>

Tag
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will give you an example of the attention Bushnell is giving this...

They just called me ASAP, I mean less than 1/2 hour of posting the image and they are seeking answers from the engineers. They know it is a coating thing, but they want to know what the colors are answering.
Will say I compared it to other optics in my stable and the main difference is the color, the purple versus a baby blue which does not stand out as much.

I can't give you anything more than to say, Bushnell is on it, and chasing it down for you...</div></div>


Thanks be to Frank and LoneWolfUSMC for making this thread very interesting. The first time I read it I just thought that copdoc was bitching about the typical chromatic aberration present, to varying extent, in all optics. The pics have made all the difference, especially that mailbox one. Looks like they definitely have a bit of a violet problem. Be sure to keep us posted on Bushnell's response Frank.

On a side note, has anyone checked out the Weaver tactical scopes to see if they display the same issue?
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

OK,

The lighting was not ideal because it was changing from shot to shot. It was cloudy with bright sun peeking through from time to time. Conditions were mostly low contrast.

All of the photos so far have been relatively close range, so I decided to show a long range background. The building is 1600+ yards away.

The first photo is take with my Canon 60D with a fairly high quality lens. This lens is prone to a little flare, but I have not seen any CA in photos taken with it.

IMG_6247.jpg


You can see that there is very slight CA on hard edges. There is a little lens flare because the camera has a 60+ mm objective. I feel that this photo is a more representative of what I was seeing with my naked eye. The rest of the photos are taken with a "point and shoot" camera that seems to magnify the fringing. I am using them for two reasons. First, since they magnify the fringing it's easier to compare it. Second, as a practical matter I can't get the DSLR behind scopes mounted on most rifles. It's just too bulky.

---------------------------

DSC00672.jpg


This is the same setup as above, but with a Sony HX9V compact camera. You can see there is slightly more than on the first photo.

---------------------------

DSC00679.jpg


This is a Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical 6-24x50mm. I have been told the coatings are the same as the HDMR. The photo isn't as clear as I would like. The wind was picking up substantially causing the sight picture to vibrate.

---------------------------

DSC00681.jpg


This is the Super Sniper 5-20x. The reticle is not crystal clear because this scope has never been mounted and the diopter has not been set.

---------------------------

DSC00685.jpg


This is the Vortex Razor HD. In this scope the fringing is green instead of the purple/violet in the other optics.

Here is another photo as the light conditions changes and the fringing goes to violet.

DSC00687.jpg


---------------------------

I realize the photos are not all the same magnification. For that I apologize. The zoom on the camera reset every time it shutoff. I was under a time crunch to get the shots before I lost the light or attracted too much attention.

As I really started looking for it, I began to notice that every single high magnification rifle scope I have has some manner of chromatic aberration. Some are more pronounced than others, but it is present in all.

Now we have to get down to the core of the matter. How does this effect the shooter?

I understand that the HDMR is not a cheap scope. It's a good deal of cash for most shooters and they expect a high level of quality for that investment. I agree with this. I just want to make sure we are setting a reasonable bar for this optic.

I won't try to convince those who are dissatisfied with their HDMR that they should just accept it. You spent your money, you get to choose if what you bought is acceptable to you.

I just want to make sure that they guys who are reading this and considering an HDMR purchase get a realistic idea of what they are buying.

This whole deal has taught me a couple things. It has taught me that something that may be relatively minor to me, may be a deal breaker to someone else. It has also taught me that I need to add a couple of steps to my scope testing.

I will caution that when you are looking for CA in a scope, test it at realistic ranges. When I stepped out my door and shot those pics at the mailbox, it was 69 yards away. Rarely will I ever shoot a 69 yard target on maximum magnification. As the ranges grow, the color fringing is less apparent.

In the real world with me eye on the objective sighting in on a long range target, the HDMR has more CA than the other three scopes I had out there. The Elite 4200 was second with the SS third. The Razor HD had so little that it wasn't really noticeable without the camera.

Again...the camera magnifies what I am seeing with my eye. When we photograph through the scopes we are adding another group of lenses that may or may not be of similar quality to the scope I am photographing. Please always keep that in mind when looking at "through the scope" photos. Most optics manufacturers will tell you how much of a PITA it is to get real world reticle shots that are high enough quality to use in advertising.

I have to duck out to do some family stuff, but I will try to answer any questions later today. This was far from a scientific test, and unfortunately I have no control over the lighting conditions. Later today I will be shooting another email to Bushnell outlining what I have seen comparing the scopes. Hopefully tomorrow I can get some side by side shots with a S&B and some Nightforce Scopes.

These photos would not have been possible without the HOG Saddle from Shadow Tech. It makes it way too simple to clamp scopes down for photos.

HOG_8576.jpg

http://www.hogsaddle.com/
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

John,

Thanks for those pics. I'm a little jealous. My 20D is sorely in need of an upgrade. That, and I can never seem to get pics anything near that quality through a scope. Well done. Thanks also for pointing out that we ADD CA any time we take a photo, simply because we add more lens groups and the quality of *those* lenses will determine how much.

I'm also grateful that you understand that what is important to one is not necessarily important to another. I, for one, do NOT need stellar optics and seem to be able to put up with a lot in other areas of optic measurement that a lot of others complain about, but for whatever reason CA is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Could I successfully engage my targets despite its presence? Most likely. Do I want to? NO.

FWIW, I found pretty much the same results with my scopes. The first thing I did was do an A-B at different ranges with the HDMR and the Razor. I had already determined that the HDMR was not a keeper, but I found it useful in terms of quantification. My particular HDMR was much worse than yours appears to be and was significantly inferior to the Razor I have at all distances and magnifications and was a LOT more sensitive to off-axis eye placement and parallax setting with regard to CA. I no longer have my SS 5-20, but memory says it was slightly better than the Razor in this area. I don't remember it catching my attention.

I am painfully aware that a high performance shooting optic is a very complicated piece of equipment with a list of performance criteria that could fill a small book. Getting all of them to be 10/10 and give the customer all of the features they want AND make it affordable is an impossible task. All manufacturers are forced to make compromises. It is conceivable that for what Bushnell was trying to bring to market at this pricepoint that they decided that good enough was good enough in this one area. Clearly that doesn't make it a "BAD" scope, just not right for me and maybe others. Then again, Bushnell may have had criteria for CA that upon second glance, a small number of scopes do not measure up. It would appear that Bushnell is well under way with their fact finding and we may or may not ever find out what really happened.

Most importantly, you've shown that this is not a ONE/ZERO, Black/White thing. All optics will display some level of CA. Some are better than others, but odds are they do something else not quite as well. It is up to us to find the right series of features and compromises that WE can live with. There is no perfect scope.

John

 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

John,

excellent work, sir. Really helpful to get a wider sampling of the CA. Each of your pics, if mine had it at the levels you've shown here, I could probably tolerate, especially because all I do is shoot steel plates and paper, so no life issues operate for me.

Steve at Bushnell told me that as of yesterday morning, the scope was in the hands of the main guy in the R&D section. He had hoped to have some feedback for me by the end of yesterday, but, no cigar. I'm hoping that I get some on Monday.

thanks, John
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I looked through a NF3-15 yesterday at a reflective object 100M away and noticed this so called CA if my eyeball wasnt straight behind the ocular lens..Once I was straight it went away..For me it would be a non issue since it goes away if centered behind the scope. Interestingly at the same time the Premeir 3-15 had none of this penomenon at the same object. If this new HDMR does the same thing and the CA goes away if centered behind the lens than It would be a non issue for me..
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

well, sir, mine is at Bushnell being evaluated; they'll either repair it, replace it (again), or send me a check for the value of it. OTOH, I'll be glad to have you send me a USPS MO for its full value - $1400 - together with your offer for shipping it to wherever you are. Upon receipt of that MO, I'll instruct Bushnell to send it back to me in whatever condition it's in, and when I get it, I'll promptly forward it to you.
There, how's that for a deal
laugh.gif
So, PU or STFU
wink.gif
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Most importantly, you've shown that this is not a ONE/ZERO, Black/White thing. All optics will display some level of CA. Some are better than others, but odds are they do something else not quite as well. It is up to us to find the right series of features and compromises that WE can live with. There is no perfect scope.


</div></div>

Exactly
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just figured that since they are so worthless that you require a new scope that you'd like to send them to me for disposal. I guess they are not so worthless after all. </div></div>

I would love to see where in the thread anyone said they were worthless...and not sure why you are being a prick about it...unless you have some sort of relationship with Bushnell and feel the need to be over protective. The whole point of the thread was people are recognizing issues with these scopes that they feel are quality control issues they shouldn't have to deal with for paying $1400-$1600 dollars for one. And if your opinion is they are worth it great, that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with your rationale.

Bushnell even recoginizes they have issues but yet you still feel they don't...interesting.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I have a scope that has what you people are talking about. It has not stopped me from making first round, and every subsequent round, hits out to 728 (the farthest I've had a chance to take it so far) yards. I thought this site was about tactical shooting. Not about who has the best gear. IMO the 3 most important qualities in a scope are that it 1. holds zero 2 returns to zero and 3 tracks correctly. Now, it seems to me that one needs to spend what these scopes cost to get all 3 of these features. The fact that these scopes have such a great reticle are just a bonus, adding to the value. I believe that the people in this thread who are complaining are like a white glove inspection in the military. They are looking for something wrong. They could buy a Hensoldt for $200 and it still wouldn't be right. Anyway, have fun complaining about your inferior purchase.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I finally got a chance to look through some of these scope this past weekend over at the Practical Marksman match.

probably 1/3 of the field were running these. they were not having any issues with them and were able to hit some pretty small targets at distance

for the money they are tough to beat, plus with the warranty you have nothing to loose.

no scope is going to be 100% clear in all conditions

i was impressed with the product