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Night Vision Headborne and rifle setup questions

adamjma

adamjma

Cold hands, lukewarm heart
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 13, 2017
486
280
Canada
A few hypothetical questions for the experienced here.

If you are going to answer, please consider that this is my reality and it may not be yours and what I have is what I have and I don't have the ability to get more at the moment. I'm in Canada, so yeah, fun times lately.

I've got a PVS-14 with a Photonis Echo tube in it (thanks ITAR!), a couple of options for aiming lasers (Perst 4, Streamlight TLR-VIR II) and plenty of white light options as well.

They will be going on a SBR for complete SHTF get out of the city use. Assumed use is on foot, hoofing it with the wife (not carrying, she's along for the ride) into the treeline once we are clear of the city and most folks.

Reasonably, if one were to need to defend oneself, I'm assuming most occurrences would likely occur in daylight, followed by white light at night and only in the rarest of cases at night under NVG. Rationale is that everyone is equal under daylight, so I'm just as likely to bump into someone as they are to bump into me. In this part of the world NVGs are not at all common (yay ITAR!) so movement at night will be by white or red light for the dumb and either through some sort of NV or unaided by the more tactically thinking folks.

Systems using active IR light such as the Sonyx Aurora are more likey to be seen than passive only systems. As such, using a passive NVG I can expect to see those folks coming in the darkest conditions.

In this part of the world I'm not expecting a peer (in terms of kit) adversary and I'm looking to avoid contact at all costs. Plan would be to get to a concealed, survivable and defensible location and wait out the situation.

So, how should I set up the single PVS-14 I have considering the above?

How should I set up the SBR?

My thought is to run the NVG over the non-dominant eye so that I can still use white light and traditional aiming if I need to (which would be my preferred frankly as I've never shot under NVG). Head up IR laser aiming would be the next choice and last option would be passive aiming through the NV-compatible red dot sight, which would mean swapping shoulders in this setup.

For the SBR, I'm thinking the Perst 4 and a white light, both button activated so I don't ND either.

As a bonus question, if I was going to get something else down the road, what should I prioritize? A second PVS-14 to go dual or for one each for me and the missus? A hand-held thermal? Dual band with a Breach?
 
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You are on the right track. You next most important move would be to add thermal. The Breach is an excellent small thermal that will let you know something is out there. Not that great at PID but pretty nifty at letting you know a live critter is in your area, say out to 500 yards consistently. Plus you can get a Mod Armory Battery Extender and run 16650 rechargeable Batteries which will power it at about 5 hours.

You need a good IR Illuminator and IR Pointer. Go with the Perst 3. Also, FYI you can find the USGI 3x Magnifier pretty cheap on Fleabay from time to time.

All tubes pretty much equal when you apply IR. So don't worry about your Photonis Echo. They are pretty good units.

The Luna ELIR-3 combined with a 3x Magnifier on your 14 will let you positive ID critters at a pretty good distance at night.


So get some of the following

1. Rechargeable AA such as: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QYM4DJQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

2. Rechargeable 16650 https://www.orbtronic.com/16650-li-ion-battery-rechargeable-protected

3. Rechargeable RCR 123 for Luna Elir & Perst 3 https://www.fenix-store.com/fenix-a...ISh18EobZz7RS9lpZIJhEsYs6mKYQ6NRoCuJcQAvD_BwE

3. Breach Battery Extender https://www.modarmory.com/product/battery-extender-for-flir-breach-ptq136-thermal-monocular/

4. Perst 3 https://ivantactical.com/shop/weapo...actical-laser-designator-with-ir-illuminator/

5. Luna ELIR-3 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1342500-REG/luna_optics_ln_elir_3_laser_ir_illuminator_picatinny.html?c3api=0980,255933575514&gclid=CjwKCAjw2a32BRBXEiwAUcugiI1X-3-peOQVBftZ-qai3h-auGe0dPVrswzOrEyaGE37cRM9uzvKrxoCEEIQAvD_BwE

6. USGI 3x Magnifier for PVS 14 https://www.modarmory.com/product/usgi-3x-magnifier-mil-spec-afocal-lens/

7. Fold Up Solar Panel https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012YUJJM8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

8. The Dark Secrets of SHTF Survival: The Brutal Truth About Violence, Death, & Mayhem You Must Know to Survive

The Dark Secrets of SHTF Survival: The Brutal Truth About Violence, Death, & Mayhem You Must Know to Survive: Begovic, Selco, Luther, Daisy: 9781792159220: Amazon.com: Books

The Dark Secrets of SHTF Survival: The Brutal Truth About Violence, Death, & Mayhem You Must Know to Survive [Begovic, Selco, Luther, Daisy] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Dark Secrets of SHTF Survival: The Brutal Truth About Violence, Death, & Mayhem You Must Know to...
www.amazon.com


Ok, so with all of the above, you can become an effective "refugee" on the run from the "Golden Horde" when the Boogaloo occurs. Lay up in the daytime in heavy cover and only move at night.
 
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@The King Your advice is 150% on everything except one item I take exception to.

Item 2. When you need white light, you need it now.

While the combo White Light/ IR Light is ok, the biggest common threat the average person would be subject to at night in a SHTF situation would be "Joe Shit The Average Thug" lighting you up with white light. If that occurs it is imperative that you respond immediately with white light (and preferably much stronger) to blind that person from getting a potential bead on you. Think Mod Light OKW kind of white light strong.

Taking the time to reach up and switch a light head from IR to White Light is totally unacceptable to me in a sticky situation where your life might depend on speed.
 
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The King said:
I understand this thought process. For me the balance is the other way - white light accidental discharges are far too common when you move if you have a tape switched white light on your rifle for rapid response.
Click to expand...
You are correct on the tape switch accidental discharges.

I will say that the Unity Taps Sync and Taps Pro were designed and do in fact work very well at eliminating the accidental discharges.

I have a lot of time in the field hog hunting under the Taps series of switches that are connected to white lights and never have ever had a accidental discharge. In all honesty with all the gear and rough terrain and slinging rifles on shoulders etc, it has been a very good trial for these switches.

The new Unity Hot Button will not be as good about eliminating accidental discharges as the Taps Sync or Taps Pro.
 
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When you're thinking for your next device I'd consider the handheld thermal like WhereNow&How mentioned and also a 2nd PVS-14 on a QD bridge like the D-14, Wilcox, KAC/RQE. The D-14 is the least expensive and works awesome. The reason duals, is you'll have better situational awareness, better ability to shoot passively with your red dot, and you can pop off a -14 and hand it to your Mrs. She can help with perimeter security and if you have to hold her in place/hiding and scout ahead, etc. you can communicate to each other using the onboard IR or other IR. If situations get hairy you may not always be side by side and if she got separated from you she'll have a big advantage with the -14.
 
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@Will-1. Spot on advice. I was trying not to overload him all at once, but I'd get the Breach first, then 14 for sure for just the exact reasons you stated.

OP: If you have the available funds do both as soon as possible. Hecque, who even knows how much longer this equipment may or may not be readily available.
 
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WhereNow&How said:
@Will-1. Spot on advice. I was trying not to overload him all at once, but I'd get the Breach first, then 14 for sure for just the exact reasons you stated.

OP: If you have the available funds do both as soon as possible. Hecque, who even knows how much longer this equipment may or may not be readily available.
Click to expand...

I agree. Thermal especially in the woods is hands down better for detection. Factor in the power consumption. You'll need to pack a lot of batteries to keep it going and use it sparingly to stretch it out. I'd recommend a good power pack and solar charger. They're a must anyways IMO for other electronics. Get a good one with all of the adapters/plugs you'll need. One thing leads to another and it adds up quick! Lol
 
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All,

Thanks for the replies. A lot to digest for sure. From a context perspective I'm assuming more of a 1992 LA riots scenario rather than a complete apocalypse scenario, so basically just get someplace isolated and survivable and wait out for things to calm down. Have comms sorted so I can monitor, communicate with wife and will definitely need to look into solar power systems.

Regrettably a lot of the kit @WhereNow&How has suggested is ITAR protected so a supreme pain in the ass to get. I think my immediate priorities are going to be power generation and storage followed by thermal and then another PVS-14 (although I might switch the last two). The Mod Armory D-14 looks amazing, but probably difficult to get here. Will look into it though.

I tend to prefer direct buttons for reliability and protection from Murphy, so if I can arrange things that way that would be my preference. Plus, Unity Tactical stuff is like unicorn shit in terms of being able to actually get here.

I'm tending to ascribe to the white light now train of thought, so a separate white light source and then the IR illum and laser in a single unit makes the most sense to me. I think I'll switch up to the TLR VIR-II and a separate white light for the SBR and either sell the Perst or set up a longer range upper perhaps. If there is any sort of distance between me and anything I won't be making noise unless I have to, so the shorter range of the TLR under NVGs is fine.

Boots are sorted as I have a pair of Meindls that are absolutely fantastic though heavy. I also have the ankles of a grandmother, so the fact that hey are rock solid makes them worth the extra weight. I have a pretty decent hiking pack but will look into that for sure.

Could still use some thoughs as to which eye to put the PVS-14 over. Still thinking non-dominant eye so I can white light shoot ASAP.

Thanks and please keep the knowledge coming!
 
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I don't think the D-14 is ITAR controlled, just the NV itself. I know the lightweight bridge didn't require ITAR release of liability, like the MAWL did.
 
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MarinePMI said:
I don't think the D-14 is ITAR controlled, just the NV itself. I know the lightweight bridge didn't require ITAR release of liability, like the MAWL did.
Click to expand...
That would be great news. I've heard that Wilcox mounts are EAR and not ITAR, but there is a great deal of uncertainty on this side of the border and a very string financial incentive to err on the side of caution on your side of the border.

I've got an email in to Mod Armory to see what they say.
 
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adamjma said:
Could still use some thoughs as to which eye to put the PVS-14 over. Still thinking non-dominant eye so I can white light shoot ASAP.
Click to expand...

When running a single, non dominate works well. As you have stated allows you to use day optics plus white light.

Also allows you to monitor ambient lighting conditions well. Who stays in the shadows usually wins. Putting on NV does not "cloak" or make you invisible. On full moon or high ambient lighting conditions it is pretty easy to see movement with natural eyes adjusted to the dark. Also, silhouetting against other ambient light sources will give away your presence.

Only downside to running a single for some (not all, not all) is that you cannot typically move as fast because of your depth perception and "perceived" much better vision due to both eyes looking through NV.

However, whether running a single or duels, proceeding "slow" is really proceeding fast when you factor in all the trips, stumbles and face plants that can happen with either setup.

You see guys run all fast and furious "operator style" on videos where they are on a course. Yeah boy, its flat and familiar to them.
Put them out in the "wild" in the real world and they ain't so fast any more. :)
 
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Thank you sir! This is why I love the Hide, lots of very knowledgeable folks sharing their wisdom.
 
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I'll add about a single -14 - for movement/navigating I find it works better over my dominant eye. If your j-arm is up to snuff you can switch it between non-dominant/dominant or the Norotos INVG and DDA work great for switching sides.

Lowering/adjusting the gain to better match your unaided eye does wonders and a single -14 can be pretty magical once you figure it out. Most people run a single -14 too bright which causes most of their issues IMO. It takes repetitive practice and getting accustomed to it.
 
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adamjma said:
Definitely need to get out and do some night hiking to get competent with the system.

Thanks all for the replies.
Click to expand...
Yep, the more time you spend out in the "wild" with NODS the more comfortable, familiar and proficient you will become.

Like I said, slow is really fast in the big scheme of things. You have the advantage over most critters.
 
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adamjma said:
That would be great news. I've heard that Wilcox mounts are EAR and not ITAR, but there is a great deal of uncertainty on this side of the border and a very string financial incentive to err on the side of caution on your side of the border.

I've got an email in to Mod Armory to see what they say.
Click to expand...
The only wilcox dealer i found in canada will only sell to military and law enforcement
 
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Hi,

Here is the new USML Sec 121 for ITAR controlled items. (Summary: The only things that have changed are Cat I, II and III)

www.law.cornell.edu

22 CFR § 121.1 - The United States Munitions List.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu

IF anyone had any type of NV shipped to them directly from a USA location...TREAD lightly and IMO remove that statement from any public forum.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
THEIS said:
Hi,

Here is the new USML Sec 121 for ITAR controlled items. (Summary: The only things that have changed are Cat I, II and III)

www.law.cornell.edu

22 CFR § 121.1 - The United States Munitions List.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu

IF anyone had any type of NV shipped to them directly from a USA location...TREAD lightly and IMO remove that statement from any public forum.

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...
Keeping it legal on my end
 
Here’s an example for you that my buddy and I came across while coyote hunting on public land. It’s not the boogaloo, but fits alongside your white light scenario.

We were headed back to our vehicles to switch up hunting spots. About 100 yards away we saw a vehicle come in to where we parked. Some shitbox car. We held our position because we found a needle on the ground when we first got there. So we are thinking could be a dope user or maybe even a deal waiting to happen.

Two males exit the vehicle and start walking towards our position. One of them had a very bright white light. They were scanning around with this white light about 45 yards away from us. We hid behind some brush and just observed. We could hear them talking about a fishing spot (stream was right there) but they ended up leaving. They never knew we were there.

My point is, NVG are such an advantage that someone using visible light will be made out by you long before they even have a chance to find you.

My SBR does not have a white light. I have Modlite IR 850 illuminator and my red dot on a Unity FAST mount for passive aiming. I will be getting a laser soon. I carry my G19 with TLR1 for white light if needed. Granted it’s on a pistol vs rifle but in my opinion, if I have NVG and need white light, it’s because I’m probably in pistol range of something anyway.

Just my 2 cents
 
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Boon20 said:
We can get them but do you want to trust a chinise nock off to hold thousands of dollars?
Click to expand...
Well here is a valuable lesson to learn. Lanyards are a thing. An important thing. Yet this "professional" whom "trains" people, well it is what it is.

This was all US mounts & equipment combined with US produced know how.



Moral to the story, don't be barebacking your NODS out there. :LOL:

Put the dam thang on the thang and don't worry about a thang.
 
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WhereNow&How said:
Well here is a valuable lesson to learn. Lanyards are a thing. An important thing. Yet this "professional" whom "trains" people, well it is what it is.

This was all US mounts & equipment combined with US produced know how.



Moral to the story, don't be barebacking your NODS out there. :LOL:

Put the dam thang on the thang and don't worry about a thang.
Click to expand...


I don't know why Wilcox does the G24's that way where they unlock in the same direction as the release knob. I have an older G24 that locks in the opposite direction, where even if you hit it on accident it's already locked so you can't release it. It's something to consider asking when you're looking at buying one - which way it locks/unlocks. A lanyard is definitely a must IMO.
 
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I run 2 Lanyards on my setups. I also have my COTI Lanyarded to my 3/4 " split ring on my PVS 14 which is connected to my helmet via Lanyard.

So another thing that cracked me up about his video, was his "high speed" flipping his NODS up drills.

So if you need to see so fast with your God given peepers, learn to raise your head up and look under your NODS. I can have both of my 14's down and hit one button and effectively use white light and Overide Vis Green laser in a split second with my peepers. Much faster than raising a set of NODS of any sort whether Force to Overcome or Push Button.

If I need to get down on a rifle scope lickety split I just rotate my right PVS 14 up and get on down to business.

Choosing mounts and how your NV system really works and the functions a particular setup offers and affords is very important to getting seamless and solid performance no matter what situation occurs.

Also, if you notice the bolts that hold my shroud on are longer so I can double nut and locktite them. Point being none of my stuff ever gets loose and and all my stuff whether Helmet or rifle mounted is pretty much lanyarded off such that you can NOT loose you NV-Thermal equipment. I also will not tolerate any wobble and wiggle in a system. Slivers of electrical tape in strategic areas to take up any "slack" is a good skill to learn. :)

You spend enough time out in the "wild" and you will learn how to secure your equipment properly or either shell out some big bucks replacing lost or damaged items.

1590690408360.png


1590690784399.png
 
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Boon20 said:
We can get them but do you want to trust a chinise nock off to hold thousands of dollars?
Click to expand...

If it comes to that I might go down that route. In the interim, I have a j-arm and a surplus Cadex mount that are working fine for me. I'd rather get my hands (legally) on the better, future-proof option. And I would rather reward the creators for their work rather than some knock off, regardless of whether it is sufficiently good.
 
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adamjma said:
If it comes to that I might go down that route. In the interim, I have a j-arm and a surplus Cadex mount that are working fine for me. I'd rather get my hands (legally) on the better, future-proof option. And I would rather reward the creators for their work rather than some knock off, regardless of whether it is sufficiently good.
Click to expand...
I did some looking and found newcon i might go with there mount
 
Boon20 said:
I did some looking and found newcon i might go with there mount
Click to expand...

Cool. Post up how you like it please. For now I'm good but always looking for options. Might as well have a list of things to buy if the confiscation happens.
 
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