headspace and bullet seating depth for savage rifles

[Mas]

How to measure the headspace and bullet seating depth for a savage rifle which has a floating bolt head?

Should I remove the cocking mechanism and the ejector in the bolt in order to feel true length of the case and position of the bullet ogive? On the internet I saw that some people do this by locking the bolt and feeling small resistance but this requires removing the cocking mechanism and the ejector.

Alternatively for the headspace, can I simply resize a fired case such that the shoulder and neck get resized but the overall case length remain the same? Does this automatically guarantee a very tight fit? And for the bullet seating depth can I first load the bullet a bit longer and let the throat push the bullet in and then I further decrease the overall cartridge length by say 0.04 inch?

The savage bolt nut is really hard to remove and I would be happy if there's a way to set the resizing die and the bullet seating die without disassembling the bolt.

 

[47guy]

Buy a modified case and the Hornady OAL tool would be the easiest way.

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/570611/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gauge-bolt-action


https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/3...erall-length-gauge-modified-case-65-creedmoor

 

[Mas]

Buy a modified case and the Hornady OAL tool would be the easiest way.

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/570611/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gauge-bolt-action


https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/3...erall-length-gauge-modified-case-65-creedmoor

Thank you very much for the tip, if i understand correctly that's for the bullet seating depth, how about the headspace?

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

It’s hard to understand your question. But I think when the bolt is shut and the lugs are engaged the bolt head is no longer just floating around. The back of the lugs on the head would be engaged or locked into place by the action.

 

[47guy]

Is this a new rifle? Are you changing barrels?
If not I would not worry about head space if you are or are that concerned about it you’ll need a go no-go and a field gauge...the bolt should not close on a no-go gauge but if it does check it with the field gauge if the bolt closes on the field gauge I would not shoot it.

 

[47guy]

Also when I shot savages I pulled the ejector and extractor when setting head space...ppl say you don’t need to but with 60,000psi 3” from my face I personally want to know it’s right

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

I think he’s asking about figuring out how much to bump his shoulders and check coal to lands after he bumps his shoulders.

 

[Mas]

It’s hard to understand your question. But I think when the bolt is shut and the lugs are engaged the bolt head is no longer just floating around. The back of the lugs on the head would be engaged or locked into place by the action.

I think the floating bolt does allow the bolt lugs to contact the action better, but another thing that the floating bolt head does is to allow the bolt face be pushed back by the butt of the cartridge a little bit and therefore fit the cartridge better.

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

The distance from the back of the lugs to the bolt face will never change.

 

[Mas]

I think he’s asking about figuring out how much to bump his shoulders and check coal to lands after he bumps his shoulders.

The distance from the back of the lugs to the bolt face will never change.

I watched this video by Savage
maybe I have miss-interpreted it, could you please take a look?

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

100% (of the back of the) bolt lug engagement (to the front of the receiver lugs). Go grab your rifle and work the bolt slowly you’ll notice when you move the handle down it pulls the bolt forward, that’s the hard metal action engaging the back of the bolt head lugs and pulling the sloppy floating bolt head into a locked position aligning the case head the the axis of the barrel. But I may be completely wrong too.

 

[Mas]

100% (of the back of the) bolt lug engagement (to the front of the receiver lugs). Go grab your rifle and work the bolt slowly you’ll notice when you move the handle down it pulls the bolt forward, that’s the hard metal action engaging the back of the bolt head lugs and pulling the sloppy floating bolt head into a locked position aligning the case head the the axis of the barrel. But I may be completely wrong too.

Sounds very reasonable. Thanks for the explanation. By the way, is the dimension of a fired case a good measure for the headspace?

 

[47guy]

I’m still wondering what your trying to figure out here?

 

[Mas]

I’m still wondering what your trying to figure out here?

Sorry about the confusion. I was trying to figure out a couple of things here:

1. Is there anything different needs to be done when setting the head space for a Savage rifle because of the floating headspace? From the insights provided by you and TBagAmouseTrap I think the answer is no.

2. Is a fired case a good measure for the dimension of the headspace for a rifle? Some people say that one firing doesn't fully expand the case and therefore a once fired case could still be smaller than the actual headspace of the rifle that was used to fire it. I wanna verify this.

3. I know a precise way to set the headspace is to shorten the case little by little and until no resistance is felt when the bolt is shut (to be able to feel the small resistance when the case is just a bit too long one has to remove the cocking mechanism and the ejector first ). However, the Savage bolt is very hard to disassemble because of the factory loctite in the bolt nut. I just wondering if everyone takes the pain to open the bolt nut just to measure the headspace, or is there a easier way. e.g. the second question.

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

I believe he’s asking if he resizes his brass long and chambers the long brass into the rifle until he gets and easy bolt to close (bumping the shoulder back the very minimal for his chamber) does he need to remove the ejector to get a good feel of when the bolt is no longer pushing the shoulder against the chamber. Then after doing that could he load a bullet in said brass long then chamber it into the rifle to so that the rifling seats the bullet to coal to the lands. Then back that measurement off .004”.

 

[Mas]

I believe he’s asking if he resizes his brass long and chambers the long brass into the rifle until he gets and easy bolt to close (bumping the shoulder back the very minimal for his chamber) does he need to remove the ejector to get a good feel of when the bolt is no longer pushing the shoulder against the chamber. Then after doing that could he load a bullet in said brass long then chamber it into the rifle to so that the rifling seats the bullet to coal to the lands. Then back that measurement off .004”.

That's exactly my original question. I also learned something important about the floating bolt head during the discussion. A minor correction, I wanted to set the bullet back by 0.04''.

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

That's exactly my original question. I also learned something important about the floating bolt head during the discussion. A minor correction, I wanted to set the bullet back by 0.04''.

I was trying to explain I don’t think the bolt head floats forward or backward in relation to the muzzle when the bolts closed. As far as needing to remove the ejector to carry out the procedure described, I’d vote no. I’ve done the procedure described with success but curious what others input on the subject is before I stuck my foot in my mouth. I also get matching long coals with 2 different Savage 6.5 Creedmoor chambers so was curious what people said about this procedure.

 

[47guy]

No you do not need to disassemble the bolt to see how far to bump your shoulders.

Yes a once fired piece of brass is fine to see how far to bump your shoulders back.

I shoot a 6.5x47 and wether fired once or 5 time it still measures 1.4735 from the base to the shoulder with a whidden comparator

 

[Mas]

I was trying to explain I don’t think the bolt head floats forward or backward in relation to the muzzle when the bolts closed. As far as needing to remove the ejector to carry out the procedure described, I’d vote no. I’ve done the procedure described with success but curious what others input on the subject is before I stuck my foot in my mouth. I also get matching long coals with 2 different Savage 6.5 Creedmoor chambers so was curious what people said about this procedure.

It's good to know that someone has successfully done this without messing with the bolt too much. Thanks again for the explanation!

 

[Mas]

No you do not need to disassemble the bolt to see how far to bump your shoulders.

Yes a once fired piece of brass is fine to see how far to bump your shoulders back.

I shoot a 6.5x47 and wether fired once or 5 time it still measures 1.4735 from the base to the shoulder with a whidden comparator

Thanks for the input, I think that answers all my quesitons!

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

I shoot a 6.5x47 and wether fired once or 5 time it still measures 1.4735 from the base to the shoulder with a whidden comparator

You bumping the shoulder every reload? When I shot a .243 r700 it would take 5 firing of just neck sizing the brass before I need to bump shoulders. I didn’t have a comparator to measure growth after each firing but that leads be to believe 1 firing doesn’t stretch the brass to the full chamber length.

 

[47guy]

yes i FL size every time...my go gauge measures 1.471 and my smith sets head space snug/tight to the go gauge...my last barrel measured 1,473 fired this barrel measures 1.4735...if i set my die high where it sizes my brass to 1.4745 1.475 its snug at the bottom of the bolt closing....my die is set now so it sizes to 1.4725 to 1.735.

i do get your point though that the OPs brass may need to be fired a few times to reach full length especially since he is shooting a factory rifle but i also think that most of this reloading is way over thought...and dont get me wrong im the same way and was even worse when i first started reloading but when you take a set of calipers and open them to 0.001-0.005 we are talking a hair so how much can that really matter when it comes to case expansion?

i think a lot of us...maybe even most of us...me included but not as bad as i use to be...spend way to much time looking for the perfect load when that time could/would be better spent shooting out to distance..getting trigger time..learning wind..working barricades and positions with a good load than running back and forth to the range shooting groups looking for the 1 hole load...besides most of us can not go out every day and shoot 1 hole groups so why chase them.

besides one hole groups cause more problems than they are worth...you shoot a one hole group on tuesday then go out friday and the same load shoots a 1/2" group then we..or me..is back at the bench scratching my head and reworking my load until late at night LOL!!