Headspace
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Re: Headspace
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fired cases and a Hornady LNL Headspace gauge. I know the chamber is frigged without taking readings but I am getting .017"+ growth. I cannot rechamber fire-formed brass in this rifle. </div></div>
Way over.
A nogo gage is .004" longer than a go gage. Therefore, if you size brass to fit a case fage perfectly, then fire it, and it's more than +.004", your chamber is out of spec long...not to say it won't run well though.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fired cases and a Hornady LNL Headspace gauge. I know the chamber is frigged without taking readings but I am getting .017"+ growth. I cannot rechamber fire-formed brass in this rifle. </div></div>
Way over.
A nogo gage is .004" longer than a go gage. Therefore, if you size brass to fit a case fage perfectly, then fire it, and it's more than +.004", your chamber is out of spec long...not to say it won't run well though.
Re: Headspace
It won't run well for sure, and I am through with it. Dang shame too as Remington has had two chances already to take care of it. Long story and I plan to furnish details later after it is settled, but it has been a journey. Two month old 700 5R 300WM to boot....damn shame.
It won't run well for sure, and I am through with it. Dang shame too as Remington has had two chances already to take care of it. Long story and I plan to furnish details later after it is settled, but it has been a journey. Two month old 700 5R 300WM to boot....damn shame.
Re: Headspace
With the belted mags the go to no go is .003. The news is that your brass is short not a surprise there.
Are you measuring the over all length change or base to body shoulder junction?
Ive found that Winchester brass is the shortest. Yet are still within minimum spec.
With the belted mags the go to no go is .003. The news is that your brass is short not a surprise there.
Are you measuring the over all length change or base to body shoulder junction?
Ive found that Winchester brass is the shortest. Yet are still within minimum spec.
Re: Headspace
Case head to datum line for measurement. Remington told me that I should not be hand loading for their rifles and only shoot their factory ammo. I said I differed as any competitive shooter or military sniper would disagree. It has been an interesting journey and I will post their replies later. I have always been a 700 fan, but the taste in my mouth now resembles feces.
Case head to datum line for measurement. Remington told me that I should not be hand loading for their rifles and only shoot their factory ammo. I said I differed as any competitive shooter or military sniper would disagree. It has been an interesting journey and I will post their replies later. I have always been a 700 fan, but the taste in my mouth now resembles feces.
Re: Headspace
Post a few more details please. What caliber are you shooting? If it's a belted magnum the long shoulder jump that you mentioned is not out of the ordinary. You should definitely try the go and no-go gauges.
I have owned two belted magnums (7mm Rem Mag.) Using various types of brass, the initial shoulder fire-form jump is .015. It will chamber freely after first firing though. Sorry about your trouble.
Post a few more details please. What caliber are you shooting? If it's a belted magnum the long shoulder jump that you mentioned is not out of the ordinary. You should definitely try the go and no-go gauges.
I have owned two belted magnums (7mm Rem Mag.) Using various types of brass, the initial shoulder fire-form jump is .015. It will chamber freely after first firing though. Sorry about your trouble.
Re: Headspace
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCourt Munitions LLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be easier to put a no-go gauge in, if bolt closes then you have excessive headspace. </div></div>I partially disagree. AI rifle chamber spec (a "plus .002 chamber" I believe its called will close on a no-go. Mine does.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCourt Munitions LLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be easier to put a no-go gauge in, if bolt closes then you have excessive headspace. </div></div>I partially disagree. AI rifle chamber spec (a "plus .002 chamber" I believe its called will close on a no-go. Mine does.
Re: Headspace
If your comparing new brass to fired brass then yes most rifles will have excessive HS, but if its fired only brass and your not even touching the shell holder and bumping the shoulder then............................................, also decapp before using the Hornadee HS gauge, primer flow effects the reading, take the rifle to a Gumsmith, have him use his nogo gauge, if it chambers Remington has to fix this, if not your GTG and use this as a learning experience.
If your comparing new brass to fired brass then yes most rifles will have excessive HS, but if its fired only brass and your not even touching the shell holder and bumping the shoulder then............................................, also decapp before using the Hornadee HS gauge, primer flow effects the reading, take the rifle to a Gumsmith, have him use his nogo gauge, if it chambers Remington has to fix this, if not your GTG and use this as a learning experience.
Re: Headspace
If its a .300WM firing virgin brass... seems like its normal for it to have to blow out quite a bit...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...906#Post2776906
Mine was using Winchester brass in a chamber done by a quality gunsmith, etc. Still had to 'blow out' the cases on the first firing.
If its a .300WM firing virgin brass... seems like its normal for it to have to blow out quite a bit...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...906#Post2776906
Mine was using Winchester brass in a chamber done by a quality gunsmith, etc. Still had to 'blow out' the cases on the first firing.
Re: Headspace
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RHobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "Remington told me that I should not be hand loading for their rifles and only shoot their factory ammo."...That does not sound like anything that a Remington employee would say to someone. </div></div>
You would think so, huh? But trust me, that is what came out of the guy's mouth and it pissed me off. Here is the story on the gun.....it is a 300WM. First time at the range with the rifle it would not group anything under 3" at 100 yards. Brass had HEAVY machining marks and deep gouges from apparent reamer chatter. Fireformed brass would not re-chamber......out of round chamber. Sent rifle and three pieces of brass back to Remington and got it back in a week. They burnished the chamber, hand lapped the barrel, and chamferred the crown. Went back to the range as soon as I got it back and it did group better, but cases would not extract after firing and I had to knock them out with a cleaning rod through the muzzle.....still had marks and scrathes on brass.
I sent it back to them a second time with two more pieces of brass for reference. They said they polished the chamber, adjusted the extractor, and cleaned and inspected the rifle (It was spotless when I sent it to them). Two weeks later I got the gun back and went to the range again. Gun grouped so-so (sucked by MY standards), extracted OK and there were no more machining marks on the brass. BUT, when you tried to rechamber the fire-formed brass back in the chamber, the bolt would close with a lot of resistance, and when you tried to eject the brass the bolt would not come back. I had to take a hammer and peck back on the bolt to get it to move. I tried this on 5 cases and it happened every time, three of them would not extract and I would have to knock the brass out from the muzzle again.
After talking to Remington on the phone again for the 3rd time and 34 minutes of explaining, I e-mailed them this note...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> SN676xxxx…..Remington 700 5R 300WM. I would like for the President or CEO of Remington to pull up the serial number of this rifle and check its history and to receive this e-mail and reply back. I bought the rifle new in September 2011 and it has already been back for repairs twice and is getting ready for its 3rd trip in. All issues have been chamber related. As of the status of the rifle at present, I will not be able to reload ammunition for it and was told by a factory rep over the phone that I needed to shoot only factory ammo. This is bull and the reason that most competition shooters and military snipers prefer a 700 rifle is because they can tailor hand loaded ammo to the rifle for best accuracy. NO COMPETITION SHOOTER WILL EVER USE FACTORY AMMO DURING COMPETITION! If I am being told that I HAVE to shoot factory ammo in a Remington rifle now, then I will never own another. I have been hand loading ammo over 20 years and know what I am doing. I am the most anal and critical perfectionist you will ever meet when it comes to firearms and reloading.
I want it to be known that I have always been a Remington fan and I have over 20 Remington’s in my gun safe today. I only own three other long guns that are not Remington’s. I have been a loyal and repeat customer over the years. In over 30 years of owning Remington firearms I have never had to send on back until now. I do realize that every now and then that someone gets a lemon, but good grief take care of it when one slips by. After two phone calls to the help center, I have never been successful at talking to a supervisor or getting my phone calls returned by them as was stated that they would.
Turn-around time by the repair shop has been excellent, but one would assume so since problems still exist. I am having to spend my vacation time off work to take off when UPS delivers the rifle back home so an adult can be here to sign for it and am running out of that. PLEASE do something about it this time……I do NOT want this rifle in question back, I would either like a new rifle in replacement or my money back and I will move on. I am truly sorry about the tone of this note as I have been as accommodating as one can be under these circumstances. I have owned the rifle for two months and it has either been in for repair or in circulation by UPS for ¾ of that……..during hunting season too!
Please forward this to upper management or send me the phone numbers or e-mail addresses to them personally and I will.
Thanks, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>
I got en e-mail back in 10 minutes that said they would refund my money or give me a new gun. This was Wednesday, day before Thanksgiving. Will see what happens next week.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RHobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "Remington told me that I should not be hand loading for their rifles and only shoot their factory ammo."...That does not sound like anything that a Remington employee would say to someone. </div></div>
You would think so, huh? But trust me, that is what came out of the guy's mouth and it pissed me off. Here is the story on the gun.....it is a 300WM. First time at the range with the rifle it would not group anything under 3" at 100 yards. Brass had HEAVY machining marks and deep gouges from apparent reamer chatter. Fireformed brass would not re-chamber......out of round chamber. Sent rifle and three pieces of brass back to Remington and got it back in a week. They burnished the chamber, hand lapped the barrel, and chamferred the crown. Went back to the range as soon as I got it back and it did group better, but cases would not extract after firing and I had to knock them out with a cleaning rod through the muzzle.....still had marks and scrathes on brass.
I sent it back to them a second time with two more pieces of brass for reference. They said they polished the chamber, adjusted the extractor, and cleaned and inspected the rifle (It was spotless when I sent it to them). Two weeks later I got the gun back and went to the range again. Gun grouped so-so (sucked by MY standards), extracted OK and there were no more machining marks on the brass. BUT, when you tried to rechamber the fire-formed brass back in the chamber, the bolt would close with a lot of resistance, and when you tried to eject the brass the bolt would not come back. I had to take a hammer and peck back on the bolt to get it to move. I tried this on 5 cases and it happened every time, three of them would not extract and I would have to knock the brass out from the muzzle again.
After talking to Remington on the phone again for the 3rd time and 34 minutes of explaining, I e-mailed them this note...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> SN676xxxx…..Remington 700 5R 300WM. I would like for the President or CEO of Remington to pull up the serial number of this rifle and check its history and to receive this e-mail and reply back. I bought the rifle new in September 2011 and it has already been back for repairs twice and is getting ready for its 3rd trip in. All issues have been chamber related. As of the status of the rifle at present, I will not be able to reload ammunition for it and was told by a factory rep over the phone that I needed to shoot only factory ammo. This is bull and the reason that most competition shooters and military snipers prefer a 700 rifle is because they can tailor hand loaded ammo to the rifle for best accuracy. NO COMPETITION SHOOTER WILL EVER USE FACTORY AMMO DURING COMPETITION! If I am being told that I HAVE to shoot factory ammo in a Remington rifle now, then I will never own another. I have been hand loading ammo over 20 years and know what I am doing. I am the most anal and critical perfectionist you will ever meet when it comes to firearms and reloading.
I want it to be known that I have always been a Remington fan and I have over 20 Remington’s in my gun safe today. I only own three other long guns that are not Remington’s. I have been a loyal and repeat customer over the years. In over 30 years of owning Remington firearms I have never had to send on back until now. I do realize that every now and then that someone gets a lemon, but good grief take care of it when one slips by. After two phone calls to the help center, I have never been successful at talking to a supervisor or getting my phone calls returned by them as was stated that they would.
Turn-around time by the repair shop has been excellent, but one would assume so since problems still exist. I am having to spend my vacation time off work to take off when UPS delivers the rifle back home so an adult can be here to sign for it and am running out of that. PLEASE do something about it this time……I do NOT want this rifle in question back, I would either like a new rifle in replacement or my money back and I will move on. I am truly sorry about the tone of this note as I have been as accommodating as one can be under these circumstances. I have owned the rifle for two months and it has either been in for repair or in circulation by UPS for ¾ of that……..during hunting season too!
Please forward this to upper management or send me the phone numbers or e-mail addresses to them personally and I will.
Thanks, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>
I got en e-mail back in 10 minutes that said they would refund my money or give me a new gun. This was Wednesday, day before Thanksgiving. Will see what happens next week.
Re: Headspace
300WM factory chambers are just over .220" to meet SAAMI spec.
- 300WM brass is between .210" and .215" to the belt.
________________________________________________________
= New brass to chamber headspace error to belt is between .005" and .010", and even worse to the shoulder.
So you can fireform new brass to headspace off the shoulder on the following shots.
Or you can move the barrel back .005" or .010" or where ever your new brass wants in between.
300WM factory chambers are just over .220" to meet SAAMI spec.
- 300WM brass is between .210" and .215" to the belt.
________________________________________________________
= New brass to chamber headspace error to belt is between .005" and .010", and even worse to the shoulder.
So you can fireform new brass to headspace off the shoulder on the following shots.
Or you can move the barrel back .005" or .010" or where ever your new brass wants in between.
Re: Headspace
In a belted magnum cartridge, for new ammo or brass, the shoulder is an unreliable method to measure case growth, as the initial headspace for belted magnums is set by the belt and not my the shoulder. As the datum line on the shoulder for belted magnums is not critical to headspace, manufacturers tend towards the undersize to insure easy chambering. After the initial firing, the sizing die should be adjusted to headspace on the shoulder at which point the belt becomes entirely superfluous. If the headspace at the belt is 0.017", that is entirely unacceptable, while 0.017" at the shoulder is acceptable as long as the headspace at the belt is within spec.
To the OP,
Sounds like Remington tried to polish out your chamber to the extent that it became our of round. They need to make that right.
In a belted magnum cartridge, for new ammo or brass, the shoulder is an unreliable method to measure case growth, as the initial headspace for belted magnums is set by the belt and not my the shoulder. As the datum line on the shoulder for belted magnums is not critical to headspace, manufacturers tend towards the undersize to insure easy chambering. After the initial firing, the sizing die should be adjusted to headspace on the shoulder at which point the belt becomes entirely superfluous. If the headspace at the belt is 0.017", that is entirely unacceptable, while 0.017" at the shoulder is acceptable as long as the headspace at the belt is within spec.
To the OP,
Sounds like Remington tried to polish out your chamber to the extent that it became our of round. They need to make that right.
Re: Headspace
After firing brass the first time that had been full-length sized, trimmed to 2.610", chamferred, and primer pockets cleaned and deburred beforehand, the case overall length itself grows to 2.625+" (head to end of case). Specs say maximum trim length is 2.620", so brass would have to be trimmed after each firing.
Besides that, I planned on using a Lee Collet die after the intial firings, just as I have used in my other 300WM's. But they will not work as it only sizes the neck and does not bump the shoulder back. The cases will not extract from the chamber.
After firing brass the first time that had been full-length sized, trimmed to 2.610", chamferred, and primer pockets cleaned and deburred beforehand, the case overall length itself grows to 2.625+" (head to end of case). Specs say maximum trim length is 2.620", so brass would have to be trimmed after each firing.
Besides that, I planned on using a Lee Collet die after the intial firings, just as I have used in my other 300WM's. But they will not work as it only sizes the neck and does not bump the shoulder back. The cases will not extract from the chamber.
