Help diagnosing stuck brass in a 308

[gconnoyer]

Need some reloading expert opinions/help.

-308, James Lederer barrel on a TL3 action.
-175SMKs .020 off the lands (2.85x OAL)
-44.3gr Varget
-Federal 210Ms
-Same load as the last 2 or 3 matches with zero issues, 2730fps, and have shot up to 47gr at 2850 through it. The ONLY difference is that this is its 4th round of firings.
-Eagle Eye Ammo brass
-Same lot of powder since May, coming to the end of the same 500ct box of bullets, same box of primers, and no pressure signs on the brass (other than this if it is one)..
Havent touched my sizing die or seater

This weekend I kept getting brass stuck in the chamber ruining my stages. I wasnt getting a heavy bolt lift, and it cycled completely normally, other than not pulling the brass out of the chamber and having to knock it out with a cleaning rod.

Every other piece looks perfect, only the stuck ones get this 1/2”ish ring around the base (pic #1 attached)

Cleaned the barrel before the match, put 12 through it to foul it in morning, no issues.
Brushed the chamber out after the first time it happened.
Gun temp doesn't seem to have any effect on it happening or not.

Probably have 2000rounds on this barrel now and this is the first time its happened.



(Pic #2 Attached to show the measurements below)
After doing some measuring...with no forcing, just dropping them into my sizing die..
The stuck brass from base to the opening of my sizing die has .5155 sticking out.
The ones that ejected are .480
A freshly sized one is .397 bumping into the neck bushing and sliding free in and out.
At the same .5155 depth each measure .4685, .468, 466 (respectively)

Testing in the chamber...
The stuck pieces take force to push back in, the extracted ones will drop in all the way but remove easily with the bolt, the sized ones drop in and out no issue.

So what causes/allows the brass to expand at that “height” inside your chamber and not allow it to be removed?

Is it a weak section of the brass there allowing it to expand too much and puts too much tension on the brass and chamber walls?
Junk brass and I should just buy a few hundred pieces of Lapua and start load development over?

Sorry for the long post, I'm stumped on the issue. Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[XLR308]

Have you checked to see if there is a difference in case head expansion between the problem cases if you have a blade Mic?

I would also second the recommendation for Lapua brass, I am on my fourth firing with neck sizing only running the 178amax at 2650 and a max book charge of AR-COMP in Lapua Palma brass and am just starting to feel slight resistance on closing the bolt.

 

[gconnoyer]

Have you checked to see if there is a difference in case head expansion between the problem cases if you have a blade Mic?

Yup, at the “problem” spot on the stuck cases, they are .0005 thicker than the fired extracted cases.

I figure its a problem with the brass, but I’m no reloading pro so I thought before I throw a shitload of brass out I would look for some better informed opinions.

 

[XLR308]

Yup, at the “problem” spot on the stuck cases, they are .0005 thicker than the fired extracted cases.

I figure its a problem with the brass, but I’m no reloading pro so I thought before I throw a shitload of brass out I would look for some better informed opinions.

I'm at work but just off of memory I recall anything over .0003 is excessive in relation to your other fired brass.
I'm sure one of the gurus will chime in and confirm or rebuke.?

 

[gconnoyer]

What are you using to measure just above the extractor groove? The average vernier caliper is only accurate to .0005.

Just a Starret 799 digital caliper, and yeah it only measures .0005.
I dont have a good blade mic. Just the standard tipped stuff

 

[XLR308]

What are you using to measure just above the extractor groove? The average vernier caliper is only accurate to .0005.

Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/rel...-trick-monitoring-pressure-your-rifle-reloads

Correct, if it doesn't line up exactly on the .0005 hash mark one could make an educated guess.
Maybe I was being a little to critical in my recollection of the max.

 

[gconnoyer]

As far as your link,
“These signs include very flat primers, slightly cratered primers, ejector marks on the case head, and stiff extraction. All these case head signs indicate high pressure, and loads should be reduced until these signs disappear.”

Everything else looks perfect. The other 80 rounds at the same load all fired and worked flawlessly.
I also should add that the dope for these stuck rounds was dead on with everything else the rest of the day.
No extra felt recoil, no change in impact height, just a failure to pull them out and that ring mark on the base

 

[918v]

You loaded 47 grains of Varget in that case under a 175???

 

[XLR308]

Up until now I had never heard of eagle eye brass but from the website and advertising it sounds to be of very high quality and the price seems to mirror that assumption.

The speeds you are running the 175 at aren't watered down but aren't insane either, I personally switched to the Palma brass not only for the Lapua quality but have been trying to standardize on the CCI 450 primer when possible. An added bonus of course is that the small primer case heads handle pressure better and seem to add longetivity in case life over the larger variety.

Just out of curiosity the load you mentioned of 47 grains of Varget would happen to be from this same batch of brass would it ?
And if so how many pieces, if the total equals the same number that you are having issues with you've possibly found the culprit. FWIW

 

[gconnoyer]

You loaded 47 grains of Varget in that case under a 175???

Yeah, trying to find pressure during load development. No heavy lift, no cratered or flattened primers, no signs on the few that I loaded. It was 2850 and not a good node so I didnt bother with going any further.

I cant remember what manual I read it from now, but remember seeing 46gr as a max charge.

Just out of curiosity the load you mentioned of 47 grains of Varget would happen to be from this same batch of brass would it ?
And if so how many pieces, if the total equals the same number that you are having issues with you've possibly found the culprit. FWIW

Thats immediately what I thought about as well. I have the date of firing written down with the brass in its box, so I’ll have to check that against my notes and the date I fired those.
My worry is that its not the problem and ruins the next match.

I’m probably just going to order up some new brass and just use the Eagle Eye for practice or anything but matches.

 

[SSGTHamlin]

I ran into a similar situation. When I checked the cases which had to be unstuck so to speak, i wasn't able to notice anything that pointed to the issue. I set aside the balance of the batch, until I had time to check the cartridges in my case gage.

What I found was the IWI match brass I had used, wasn't sized properly. found the issue was at the neck not the base. I ended up pulling bullets on 60 rounds, resizing and then checked in the case gage. The only thing I can think of is that I typically have a slight pause at the top of the stroke and probably ran through the cycle on my dillon press like I was reloading 9mm.

That being said I have slowed down while reloading my 308 ammo. FWIW

 

[918v]

Yeah, trying to find pressure during load development. No heavy lift, no cratered or flattened primers, no signs on the few that I loaded. It was 2850 and not a good node so I didnt bother with going any further.

I cant remember what manual I read it from now, but remember seeing 46gr as a max charge.

46 is max under a 168, and that’s in a Win case that is 13grs lighter. 45 is max under a 175 in a Win case. 44 is max in the case you’re using. You need to improve your attention to detail. Reloading is about detail. Details will make or break your load and equipment, like brass.

Brass is elastic but it also has limits. When you overcharge you exceed these limits and your sizing die can no longer change the direction of springback. In a normal reload, brass expands to seal the chamber then springs back a little toward its original size so you can easily extract it.

In an over pressure case, the sizing die is unable to size the case sufficiently to ensure the direction of springback is toward the bore center. The case springs back toward the chamber wall, away from the bore center and your cases stick to the chamber.

One way to treat this is through the use of a small base die, but that only gives you an additional .001” of sizing and may not be enough. I suggest you trash the lot and start over and don’t exceed your current load.

 

[gconnoyer]

One way to treat this is through the use of a small base die, but that only gives you an additional .001” of sizing and may not be enough. I suggest you trash the lot and start over and don’t exceed your current load.

Yup thats what I've decided. I can afford to spend the money on new brass to load, I cant afford to keep driving 5-10hrs for matches to have an issue 50-60% of the day.

 

[winniedonkey]

Did you size all the brass at the same time?

 

[tnichols]

You loaded 47 grains of Varget in that case under a 175???

Yikes ?

 

[gconnoyer]

Did you size all the brass at the same time?

Yeah I normally try and knock 2-3 hundred pieces, doing once process a night.

 

[gconnoyer]

You loaded 47 grains of Varget in that case under a 175???

Yikes ?

When I got into reloading everything I read, everywhere, said to take note of the minimum and maximum charges in reloading manuals, but ultimately you need to work up a load in your rifle and that that was just a recommendation.
The same goes with pulling a load from an online repository.
You can pull a load off of a forum and it may not work in your rifle.

I've seen it more than enough times where people try and swap ammo and run into issues because what is too hot in one gun, isnt in another.

As a general rule of thumb I'm sure that's alot. But without a certain rifle/chamber/brass/etc....and actual testing, how can you say that its too much?

 

[918v]

When I got into reloading everything I read, everywhere, said to take note of the minimum and maximum charges in reloading manuals, but ultimately you need to work up a load in your rifle and that that was just a recommendation.
The same goes with pulling a load from an online repository.
You can pull a load off of a forum and it may not work in your rifle.

I've seen it more than enough times where people try and swap ammo and run into issues because what is too hot in one gun, isnt in another.

As a general rule of thumb I'm sure that's alot. But without a certain rifle/chamber/brass/etc....and actual testing, how can you say that its too much?

Because book max is 45grs in a Win commercial case that weighs 157 grains and he loaded 47grs in a 168gr case. He’s at max pressure with his 44gr load and he went 3grs over. He put a .30-06 load into a 308 case. There is no 308 chamber on this planet where his load is not excessive.

I’m not saying his load is dangerous to humans, but it definitely is dangerous to his brass and explains his current predicament.

 

[MarinePMI]

His OP says 44.3grs. Did I miss something?

Edit: Never mind, I see the 47gr reference. Yikes!

 

[918v]

Yes u did. The OP said he previously loaded 47grs in those cases