Help from the Wind Masters

Alaskaman11

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Ok Wind Masters got a question….

I was shooting on a beach up here in the great north. I had targets set at 300, 500, and 1000 yards. I had good dope for 3 and 5 but the wind was giving me a hard time at 1000. 3 to 500 I was 4 mph at ¼ values (at my 5 o’clock) my software was calling for 1 click right. At 1000 it was calling for 4 clicks right. Somewhere at about 850 to 900, the wind switched to full value left to right. It was gusting at about 10 to 15 mph. (there was a draw coming off of the hillside and the wind was barreling out of the draw). How do I set my windage in a situation like that? I was getting hits from center mass 5 to 6 sometimes 10 inch right. I’m shooting a TRG 42 in 338 Lapua, 250 scenars with RL 25 as powder
 

Criver600

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

Sometimes (with a Palma/308 everytime) you are making wind calls every shot. It really helps with an indicator flag/string/mirage. Establish primary direction/value then try to keep up with the pushes and let-offs. Its not easy.

If your widest shot in a 10/15 MPH full value was 10 inches right at 1000 yards your pretty damn good.
 

Jedi

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

Wind is a cruel misstress

Reading wind is a skill that is not so easy to learn.

Firstly think of wind as water, invisible but flow dynamics are much same.

Spend some time watching water flow thur creeks etc see how objects affect direction change

Then Cheat
by far, easiest way to read wind is via mirage in scope, watch mirage in scope carefully
Break each shot when scope mirage matchs previous shot

pratice pratice
 

wnroscoe

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

Mirage in the scope is what I use 99% of the time. I also use other indicators like grass, dust, leaves etc. to try and get a clock direction. The mirage in your scope will give you an average wind velocity reading across the course and for me, its damn close. Look close and you'll see an angle to the mirage in your scope, it flattens out as the wind speed increases. It's good for up to about 10mph, after that, it means squat. Clock direction is the main factor to determine but, mirage in the scope doesn’t help. That’s why I use the other factors I mentioned. Wind reading is a perishable skill, to keep the edge practice and good notes are a must. Sounds like your doing good. Like Gail McMillan said in an article, "No one gets it right 100% of the time but, winners get it right most of the time." Good luck to you.
 

Bluejazz

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

Not being an experienced longrange shooter yet, take this for what it is worth.
If you had a full value wind for the last 200 yards, it seems to me you would need to add that value for the 200 yards, to the rest of your dope.
Example:
1000 yards 4mph wind @ 5:00 oclock= 1 MOA wind= 11.3 "
200 yards @ 4mph wind @ 9:00 oclock= .25 MOA= .70"
Total wind = 12"
So you would need to dial for 12" of wind at 1000yards.
Since I have not shot at that distance yet, I could be all wrong. Just seems like a logical way of looking at it to me.
I would be interested to here from others on this as well, just to be able to learn something about it.
 

Lindy

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

Just make sure to calculate the wind effect for that last 200 yards using the actual velocity of the bullet during that last 200 yards, not the muzzle velocity.
 

Alaskaman11

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

this helps alot, I will try this next week, i will set at the last few hundred yards
 

zscurlock

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

I was told never to dial wind, so generally I don't. If I am out past 1500 yds and the wind is constantly 2 to 4 mils. I will sometimes put 1 to 2 mils in. Otherwise it changes with every shot, so why dial. I (try to) read it and then shoot.
 

shankster..

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sotexhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was told never to dial wind, so generally I don't. <span style="font-weight: bold">If I am out past 1500 yds </span>and the wind is constantly 2 to 4 mils. I will sometimes put 1 to 2 mils in. Otherwise it changes with every shot, so why dial. I (try to) read it and then shoot. </div></div>

Holy shit. That's a long way.
 

Lindy

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was told never to dial wind...</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Never</span> is a bit too unconditional. I have seen conditions where one pretty much had to dial wind, because the wind correction was greater than one could hold using a reticle.
 
G

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

I'm far from being a good wind reader, but some of the time (if time permits on square range targets), I'll dial for what I see right then,... then relook and hold more or less, at the shot. My reticals are marked every 1 moa, with 30 moa of windage both ways.

The more I shoot these reticals, the less dialing I do.
 

zscurlock

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was told never to dial wind...</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Never</span> is a bit too unconditional. I have seen conditions where one pretty much had to dial wind, because the wind correction was greater than one could hold using a reticle.</div></div>

Yes, that would be when I have done it. Which is usually 1 to 2 mils.
 

shankster..

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sotexhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was told never to dial wind...</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Never</span> is a bit too unconditional. I have seen conditions where one pretty much had to dial wind, because the wind correction was greater than one could hold using a reticle.</div></div>

Yes, that would be when I have done it. Which is usually 1 to 2 mils. </div></div>

What rifle are you shooting to shoot 1,500? I think a 1,000 is a long way.
 

Triggerfifty

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

aahhh, let me see if I can remember any of this.

Aim somewhere in the same direction the wind is coming from? Wait, I remember something about bullets spinning, which complicates things, temp, bp issues, earth spinning? Please don't tell me sunspots are involved in this too? The smudge on jupiter? Only kidding, trying to keep a sense of humor to this cranky subject,

Trigger
 

Alaskaman11

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">aahhh, let me see if I can remember any of this.

Aim somewhere in the same direction the wind is coming from? Wait, I remember something about bullets spinning, which complicates things, temp, bp issues, earth spinning? Please don't tell me sunspots are involved in this too? The smudge on jupiter? Only kidding, trying to keep a sense of humor to this cranky subject,

Trigger </div></div>


HAAAHH I like this guy!~
 

Triggerfifty

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

Damn!!

I also spose that that old coke can taped into my crack to keep rain water from running down that really bad place that seems to be accountable for about 50% of a wind error!!

For example, if you're right handed, and tend to favor a knee cocked up just a bit to keep the old heart rate down, or you could just do some self-carotid massage to drive down the heart rate, anyway, I degress, without the old coke can in place, as water runs down that bad place, you tense up, pulling the gun in a bit too tight, drifting the barrel to the right, then flinching to the left, wincing, wincing, wincing... crack!! Then your observer opens his non-spotting scope attached eye and looks you over, seeing the obvious discomfort from the errant raindrop and applies immediate action... that being the form of a slowly cooling MRE heater pack to the sensitive spot between you legs to pre-warm radical running free rain drops...

Problem is then your decreased HR due to the carotid massage maneuver lowers your blood pressure too much... and it goes on and on and on. Eventually this leads to your observer having to resort to the best backup sniper rifle ever built... no, not a Stinking SR-25, now called the M110 SASS, the best one being a belt fed MG, preferrably a MAG58, which cranks at a nice 850 rpm. Or an MG-42, converted to .308 of course.

Sorry, got a bit off track again, crazy year.

Trigger
 

USAshooter

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Mar 14, 2009
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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

I can consistently get my first cold shot on target no matter what the wind. By consistently, I mean 7 outa 10 shots. I am comfortable with my rifle, load, and ability to read wind and temperature. You should try this some time. It is not that difficult to acheive.
 

djd

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

T-50,
LMAO! That of course, being that I've known you forever, and SF butt-crack humor! The belt-fed was good advise as backup.

USAshooter: Good job... you have learned what few others have not, it seems.

Dean, see you this weekend, or Monday at very latest.

djd

 

Triggerfifty

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

Dave,

Any and all SF humor should and usually does center around that part of anatomy, no sure why.

I've always watched this "backup sniper rifle" discussion with a bit of humor and when it gets serious, I usually scoff and go away. For cops, sure, but my opinion is even with them it's used the wrong way.

For Military shooters, to me, the ultimate backup "sniper weapons system", NOT the scabby M110 that's the rage of all the internet and rag writers ( I still get a little puke in the back of my throat whenever I see the false hype of any SR type rifle, had more of them fail, or bust the can on the end, than any MG in 27 years).

Sorry, back to the best backup sniper rifle...

Major Points.

1. Belt Fed.
2. 7.62mm preferably. 5.56mm if you have to, WITH a long barrel, none of that para setup, folding stock is nice though.
3. 1.5 - 10x day optic, Mark IV, M-3 would be fine.
4. UNS night sight w/ a PEQ designator.
5. If available an old M-79 because it's weird to fit a 8" M203 to a belt fed, and it's hard to wield.
6. Either belt fed setup with one of the Cheytac over the barrel bipod setups, (then I could be wierd and sling a 40mm launcher under the forearm of the MG.

Ancillary consideration, 4th person on any sniper team. Almost ANY one of the fine ladies on the "girlfriends" thread
smile.gif


Never forget a trip to Najaf in 04, a USMC patrol pulled into the compound with their hummers. The tail vehicle stops, vehicle had a Ma-Deuce mounted in the top ring. The gunner hops onto to the top deck, SNATCHES the gun out of the cradle mount, takes the barrel off, and starts cleaning. SHE had 1 foot of braided blonde pony tail. I was instantly in love. All business, now i'd put her beside me with that MG any time.

Now that'll start some conversation.
smile.gif


Have a good one fellas,
Trigger

Day by day, more of the smoke goes away.
 

Alaskaman11

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

How the hell did we go from calling variable wind directions to back up Sniper Rifles? Guys back on topic please. Your making a 1000 yard shot, you have full value l to r at 5 mph @ for the first 400 yards, then you have a full value wind from R to L for the remaining 600 yards. How do you set your Dope on he scope or hold over?

And yes, here in Alaska, wind does stupid shit like this.
 

Triggerfifty

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

Take a breath,...

Wind does that stupid shit everywhere on the planet. Dope also, is a term used to establish a KNOWN, no wind is a known, therefore it's not dope, it's a Correction, or a guess. Just my .02

In relation to "back on topic", I stand chastised, but my problem is that I don't give a crap.
smile.gif
Hope I didn't offend you. Wait, 1000 yards? Haven't shot that short a range for serious work in quite a while. Another point, how do you KNOW at what point downrange the wind is switching directions, and at what speed?

Bullet in flight observation. Measured and PROVEN over years. Methodology too much to write here. When dealing with winds that switch directions as you're talking about, consider the winds past MAXIMUM ORDINATE as those having the greatest effect on the flight of the bullet. Now, I know the arguement that as the bullet leaves the barrel, it picks up a cross range velocity. True, but only a small amount, as the bullet goes over MAX ORD, the nose is also carrying high and the bullet is more susceptible to cross range push as it's less stable and not in a nose correct attitude.

Therefore, if given only one position to concentrate on, I'd go in this case with winds from 600 on, and give a little consideration to the winds at the gun.

Trigger
 

hydro556

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Re: Help from the Wind Masters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take a breath,...

Wind does that stupid shit everywhere on the planet. Dope also, is a term used to establish a KNOWN, no wind is a known, therefore it's not dope, it's a Correction, or a guess. Just my .02

In relation to "back on topic", I stand chastised, but my problem is that I don't give a crap.
smile.gif
Hope I didn't offend you. Wait, 1000 yards? Haven't shot that short a range for serious work in quite a while. Another point, how do you KNOW at what point downrange the wind is switching directions, and at what speed?

Bullet in flight observation. Measured and PROVEN over years. Methodology too much to write here. When dealing with winds that switch directions as you're talking about, consider the winds past MAXIMUM ORDINATE as those having the greatest effect on the flight of the bullet. Now, I know the arguement that as the bullet leaves the barrel, it picks up a cross range velocity. True, but only a small amount, as the bullet goes over MAX ORD, the nose is also carrying high and the bullet is more susceptible to cross range push as it's less stable and not in a nose correct attitude.

Therefore, if given only one position to concentrate on, I'd go in this case with winds from 600 on, and give a little consideration to the winds at the gun.

Trigger </div></div>

Fucking priceless answer.
 

Lowlight

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    Re: Help from the Wind Masters

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take a breath,...

    Therefore, if given only one position to concentrate on, I'd go in this case with winds from 600 on, and give a little consideration to the winds at the gun.

    Trigger </div></div>

    Fucking priceless answer. </div></div>

    Its does sounds authoritarian...


    However I would say, given only one consideration, the wind at you is the only wind you know. You have to have a base line regardless of which winds have the greatest effect and that base line starts at the shooter.

    Anyone, I dont' care who they are, who is telling you they can tell you what the wind 600m or more away is doing without a base line which starts at the shooter is absolutely, 100% full of shit. Mirage is only good up to point, trees and grass blowing will only tell you just that, wind is blowing... not how fast, and certainly when blowing faster than 12MPH is near impossible to tell any difference between 12MPH and say, 16MPH, cause it just lays everything over including the mirage.

    Every single class of AF Weather guys that come by I ask them about the wind, and they all say, without a base line reading, the only answer you get no matter if he's an old weather guy, or new weather guy, is, "it's blowing" ... none can give you a number to use, without a base first, after that they can tell you all sorts of things, direction of turn with elevation, effects over land masses, water, etc, but none can read the wind 1000 yards away from a tree blowing.

    So, while that "wind at the target" sounds good, you still need a base line to extrapolate what we know about the wind to overlay what we would consider the conditions to be downrange.

    When considering Max Ord, and going beyond 600m, you know the bullet flight takes it up enough to add about 2 to 4+ MPH to your base line wind reading at, "you" the shooter... so no matter what, I submit you have to consider wind at the shooter every bit as anywhere else. Anyone saying they don't consider it, well, I have already said... and that consideration has to be the foundation for everything else after that, period.
     

    wnroscoe

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    Re: Help from the Wind Masters

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone, I dont' care who they are, who is telling you they can tell you what the wind 600m or more away is doing without a base line which starts at the shooter is absolutely, 100% full of shit. Mirage is only good up to point, trees and grass blowing will only tell you just that, wind is blowing... not how fast, and certainly when blowing faster than 12MPH is near impossible to tell any difference between 12MPH and say, 16MPH, cause it just lays everything over including the mirage. </div></div>

    Agreed 100%, good, sound advice.