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Help me buy a lower

Some lowers offer Ambi controls and Billet. Right?
sure you can buy them in different configurations...but assuming a standard config "milspec" lower.....they all do the same shit.

ambi controls i dont believe are terribly necessary on an AR.....they are pretty ambidextrous as is.....they can be nice to have, but i certainly wouldnt pay significantly more for them.

and theres no reason to buy a billet lower other than looks and to say " its billet".....as a forged lower is technically stronger than billet (not that it really matters).
 
sure you can buy them in different configurations...but assuming a standard config "milspec" lower.....they all do the same shit.

ambi controls i dont believe are terribly necessary on an AR.....they are pretty ambidextrous as is.....they can be nice to have, but i certainly wouldnt pay significantly more for them.

and theres no reason to buy a billet lower other than looks and to say " its billet".....as a forged lower is technically stronger than billet (not that it really matters).
Toyota Avalon vs Lexus ES350.
Literally same car, one is a bit more luxurious than the other.
 
That’s a bummer. I have some of their early ‘gator’ lowers and they are great.

yeah my first build was a matched gator lower / upper. During that time mega machine shop kicked out quality! I remember reading an article about management changes and problems with employee retention and they never recouped.
 
ive never understood paying $100-300 for a lower.

spend $40 and get yourself an Anderson Lower....it literally does everything exactly the same as a Spikes/ Noveske/ Daniel Defense/ KAC/ ect.


honestly its hard to fuck up an AR.....even the cheapest AR-Stoner franken rifles shoot just fine.

Let's be totally honest it's not so hard to fuck up an AR if you are a moron.
A moron that can't figure out why the bolt is short stroking when you have installed a bolt into the back of a carrier tube that extends in the carrier space. 🤔
A moron that doesn't understand gas block alignment and it's correlation to the system as a whole working as designed. Paging Bobby Bushett
A moron that is to dim witted to figure out how to make a low mass carrier set up run without malfunction. I find this one in particular comical because if you have a problem with this your to stupid to be building an AR and you should be a professional cat box cleaner.
 
....you must be new around here eh?....

pal, im a professional firearms instructor, NRA master shooter, and shot NCAA rifle.....i really dont need my experience questioned by someone who thinks spending $300 on the least critical part of an AR15 is necessary for proper function.


tell me, since you have all the answers, and i apparently know nothing.....exactly what a Noveske lower does than an Anderson lower doesnt do?....how exactly does it have any bearing on performance?

if you take a DD barreled upper, and put it on an anderson lower, is it going to shoot any differently?
Noveske is nothing special, even moreso since John Died. The only thing they really brought to the table, at the time, was good barrels which were nothing but PAC Nor rebranded. It was also at a time(Mid 00's) where there were only a few AR companies building components and rifles correctly. The switchblockwas a novel idea at the time, because it was the only AGB out there.

There are hundreds of critical dimensions in a lower receiver. If they are not machined properly there are hundreds of issues that can arise. I would take a book to list them all, and how they effect the other components and function of the rifle.

Just because you can physically smash the parts in, doesn't mean its done correctly. Just because you can function test it, doesn't mean its built correctly. Just because you can get it to fire a few mags, doesn't mean it is built correctly and will continue to do the same after 500, 5000, 15000 rounds.

That is not even getting into the materials side of it for LPK, but that is another discussion.

Am I supposed to be impressed by your resume? We have lots of "Professional Firearm Instructors" in my local area. Most are a slight step above functionally retarded with zero real experience. Blind leading the Blind. Oh cool you can pay to take a NRA instructor course and be just as clueless as most of them.

Like I said, you have very little knoweldge of this platform. Just because you shoot them doesn't mean you know how they work. All race car drivers are not master mechanics. Most understand just enough to help them do their job effectively. The fact that you do not understand why a quality lower is important, tells us what we need to know about your knowledge and experience.
 
This guy is a fucking tard and the primary reason there should be a litmass test for new members.
I am not entirely sure this guy could be alive on his own without life support.
"Letting me kill those that don't deserve life matters "
 
Again, I can only go by personal experience. I've used Aeroprecision and Spike's Tactical lowers for four AR15 builds and one AR10 build. All have performed without issue. Several of these guns have thousands of rounds through them. So, my experience is 5 for 5. Now if someone else has personal experience with Aeroprecision or Spike's Tactical where they bought a lower that was out of spec. and simply didn't work for their build and the company was unwilling to make it right, I'm more than interested to hear about it. But if it's just your opinion that a $250 lower is better than a $70 lower because ... well it cost $180 more. That isn't really all that persuasive.

Ultimately, it's your money and you can spend it how you want. To me, spending $200-250 on a stripped lower when a blemished lower I paid $50-70 for performs exactly the same is a waste of money. Same with a lower parts kit from a known mfg. Again, I've never had a detent or bolt catch fail. I'd rather take the money I save building a lower and use it to buy a high quality upper. Or a good quality scope. Or ammo.
 
Noveske is nothing special, even moreso since John Died. The only thing they really brought to the table, at the time, was good barrels which were nothing but PAC Nor rebranded. It was also at a time(Mid 00's) where there were only a few AR companies building components and rifles correctly. The switchblockwas a novel idea at the time, because it was the only AGB out there.

There are hundreds of critical dimensions in a lower receiver. If they are not machined properly there are hundreds of issues that can arise. I would take a book to list them all, and how they effect the other components and function of the rifle.

Just because you can physically smash the parts in, doesn't mean its done correctly. Just because you can function test it, doesn't mean its built correctly. Just because you can get it to fire a few mags, doesn't mean it is built correctly and will continue to do the same after 500, 5000, 15000 rounds.

That is not even getting into the materials side of it for LPK, but that is another discussion.

Am I supposed to be impressed by your resume? We have lots of "Professional Firearm Instructors" in my local area. Most are a slight step above functionally retarded with zero real experience. Blind leading the Blind. Oh cool you can pay to take a NRA instructor course and be just as clueless as most of them.



Like I said, you have very little knoweldge of this platform. Just because you shoot them doesn't mean you know how they work. All race car drivers are not master mechanics. Most understand just enough to help them do their job effectively. The fact that you do not understand why a quality lower is important, tells us what we need to know about your knowledge and experience.


What a fucking narrow minded asshat you should crawl back into the sleazy world of BARFCUM and stay there.
Bring some knowledge or wash your brain out with buckshot.
 
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Again, I can only go by personal experience. I've used Aeroprecision and Spike's Tactical lowers for four AR15 builds and one AR10 build. All have performed without issue. Several of these guns have thousands of rounds through them. So, my experience is 5 for 5. Now if someone else has personal experience with Aeroprecision or Spike's Tactical where they bought a lower that was out of spec. and simply didn't work for their build and the company was unwilling to make it right, I'm more than interested to hear about it. But if it's just your opinion that a $250 lower is better than a $70 lower because ... well it cost $180 more. That isn't really all that persuasive.

Ultimately, it's your money and you can spend it how you want. To me, spending $200-250 on a stripped lower when a blemished lower I paid $50-70 for performs exactly the same is a waste of money. Same with a lower parts kit from a known mfg. Again, I've never had a detent or bolt catch fail. I'd rather take the money I save building a lower and use it to buy a high quality upper. Or a good quality scope. Or ammo.
Nothing happens in a vacuum. 4 builds is hardly enough to have any resemblance of statistical significance. You may very well have products that work for you. You may also have issues you are not aware of.

People tend to live in their own little bubble and ignore what we know as industry whole.

There is a whole spectrum of knowledge and experience. Not everyone is the same.

The AR believe it or not, is a complex mechanical system with ALOT of variables that can go from do nothing to complete failure. You have hundreds of manufactures all building various components, to different specs, with different materials , with varying amounts of quality control, with different monkeys running the machines, with assemblers who many times do it differently, requiring the gun to run in wildly different environments with different magazines and ammo.

It is more a testament to the inherent design that we are able to make this work at all.

Slapping parts together may result in a perfectly functioning weapon. It may also result in a weapon that appear to work but has serious issues that will show up when your round count goes up, it gets dirty, you change ammo, run it dry,ect.

In order to ensure a weapon will run, you stick to quality, known components that have been proven to work together.

If you were to take the time, you can find numerous issues on the net from people having issues with many of the products mentioned. Not that the top manufactures aren't capable of letting a bad item through, however the frequency is a fraction of a fraction of what many manufactures consider acceptable.

Cheap parts are cheap for a reason. They use cheaper materials, cheaper machinery, cheaper tooling, Let the tooling wear longer before replacement, Do less or no QC, Instead of scraping bad parts, trying to salvage them/sell to discount sellers, Do little to no R&D to ensure the parts combination is durable/reliable over its life cycle, Employ low firearm IQ people, source the cheapest sub components they can, ect.

Quality costs money. Colt, BCM, FN, LMT & KAC all devote alot of time and money to ensuring their products come out ready to perform. They spend money in places most don't even have a person doing that function. KAC probably spends more on R&D than Spikes , Aero, PSA & Anderson does in a year combined, with a much much lower vollume. They do this becuase in the 20-30-50 years they have been producing hard use combat weapons, they know what needs to be done to ensure the end user can trust their life to this tool. You think they want to run pin gauges through lowers and barrels to ensure it was done correctly, even thought they know the tool path and tooling is good to go? Maybe through experience, they know a bit more than your cheap poverty pony or PSA.

And then nothing is constant. What was a fantastic product 5 years ago may be trash today. Its common in the firearms world for companies to sell out their "brand" to cash in. What is trash today may end up being very high quality in the future. You need to have a pulse on the market as a whole, in combination with understanding the history of this platform and the firearms world to have a good understanding to be able to make informed decisions and smart choices.
 
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Noveske is nothing special, even moreso since John Died. The only thing they really brought to the table, at the time, was good barrels which were nothing but PAC Nor rebranded. It was also at a time(Mid 00's) where there were only a few AR companies building components and rifles correctly. The switchblockwas a novel idea at the time, because it was the only AGB out there.

There are hundreds of critical dimensions in a lower receiver. If they are not machined properly there are hundreds of issues that can arise. I would take a book to list them all, and how they effect the other components and function of the rifle.

Just because you can physically smash the parts in, doesn't mean its done correctly. Just because you can function test it, doesn't mean its built correctly. Just because you can get it to fire a few mags, doesn't mean it is built correctly and will continue to do the same after 500, 5000, 15000 rounds.

That is not even getting into the materials side of it for LPK, but that is another discussion.

Am I supposed to be impressed by your resume? We have lots of "Professional Firearm Instructors" in my local area. Most are a slight step above functionally retarded with zero real experience. Blind leading the Blind. Oh cool you can pay to take a NRA instructor course and be just as clueless as most of them.

Like I said, you have very little knoweldge of this platform. Just because you shoot them doesn't mean you know how they work. All race car drivers are not master mechanics. Most understand just enough to help them do their job effectively. The fact that you do not understand why a quality lower is important, tells us what we need to know about your knowledge and experience.
you want to measure dicks then.....whats your experience?.....other than spending your time justifying over paying for ARs?.......what is your exact firearms experience that is so vast?....what is your experience in building guns?.....what is your experience in metallurgy?......what is your experience in manufacturing.

i can assure you, this is not a rabbit hole you are going to go down and come out succesfully.

also there are not hundreds of critical dimensions on a lower......i know.....i have the complete data package for the AR platform.

but i am actually going to call you out.. right now...i want you to list all the critical dimensions, what the values are and what tolerances they need to hold, and what the penalty is if they are out of spec

what stresses are going on in the lower that are going to cause it to fail after 500-15,000 rounds?......have you run FEA analysis on lower receivers?......i have, you wanna go down that alley too?

funny, ive never actually heard of a forged aluminum receiver failing under normal circumstances (not a result of a kaboom)........where are all these cases of recivers just breaking?


also, i never mentioned anything about LPKs......so dont try to strong arm that into the discussion to make it seem like im arguing a point i am not.
 
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I have no dog in the fight but at one time the Noveske roll mark meant you had purchased a product that was held to quality standards much higher than almost any mfg on the market.

Quick question, why did you specify a DD barreled upper? Why not An Anderson barrel? Be honest, you know the difference in quality products and shit tier. Did you reach NRA Master class with junk equipment?
i specified DD upper because i have no qualms in admitting spending money on the upper/ BCG/ and barrel is worth the expense......its really hard to deny that, and but thats not what OP was asking about and not what im arguing.

but the lower, by pretty much every metric, is inconsequential.

regarding my equipment.....the stuff that needed to be quality was quality......the stuff that didnt wasnt.

for a lot my my shooting career early on, i used modified Savage mk2......hardly "top end" equipment......but when you are shooting 50' indoor 3P........you arent going to see much of a difference in accuracy between a $500 gun, and a $5000 gun.

when shooting 100M prone.....yes, an anschutz is going to outshoot the savage all day......so thats what i upgraded to

my shooting mat to this day is a $20 mat i got from midway.
my spotting scope is a $150 barska.
my rifle is a $4000 anschutz
my shooting jacket is custom fitted

where it makes senses to spend money....i spend money.......but im not going to drop cash if its not going to make a performance difference.

and the fact is.......putting a DD upper on a $40 lower is going to shoot just as well as the DD upper on a $300 lower.



people claiming "its held to a higher standard"......how do you know?......do you know the exact standard they are holding it to?...do you know what standard the Andersons are held to?.....

more importantly......what exactly are you getting with that "higher standard"?

if i build 2 cars.......1 car is built to a standard that allows the car to run fine.....but the 2nd car is built to a "higher standard".......what exactly am i getting from that additional cost?......both cars run just fine, so why pay more for a car that does the exact same thing the cheaper car does?

unless you are arguing the Andersons dont work as a lower.....in which case i personally have nearly a dozen examples of Anderson working just fine.......and youd be hard pressed to find examples of Andersons NOT working fine as a lower.

in Engineering, we design parts with the amount of precision we need for them to work, then we stop adding precision.....because all we are doing is adding unnecessary cost to the part.
 
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CrabsandFootball - It's true, 5 builds isn't 500 builds or 5000. But both Spikes and Aeroprecision make and sell a ton of lowers. While I'm sure if you scour the internet you can find someone somewhere who is unhappy with his Aeroprecision lower, I am simply unaware of there being a ton out there about these lowers being problematic.

Also, I'm a little confused by your point that I may have a problem I just don't know it. I have shot all of my builds ... a lot. Two have thousands and thousands of rounds through them. Shot both of them pretty dirty. Shot with multiple brands of ammo and bullet weights. Shot with Magpul and GI mags. Shot in the rain. Shot when it was 90 degrees. Shot when it was 10 degrees. While it's possible I may have had 1-2 FTF (I'm honestly not sure) all have run flawlessly. From my perspective an unknown problem that has zero effect on performance isn't really a problem. I guess you have a different definition.

Also, not really persuaded that a stripped lower (which is what we've been talking about) is massively complex. And the specs. of most military lowers are pretty standard - that's the point. Do you think Aeroprecision or Spikes are deliberately building out of spec. lowers? Any evidence of this. Similarly, to my knowledge Aeroprecision and Spikes use precisely the same materials as KAC - forged 7075 Aluminum. Is the metallurgy and mfg. process used by KAC different?

Finally, your point about all the money being spent by KAC on R&D seems kind of silly when we are talking about a stripped lower. Do you really think KAC is spending millions on developing a superior stripped lower? If so, it certainly seems like a waste of money since it seems pretty rare that a stripped lower ends up being the weak link in the AR15 chain.

I think Mcameron has hit it on the nose - as long as it's in spec. and made of forged 7075 aluminum the lower receiver is one of the most inconsequential parts of an AR15. It's kind of like arguing that we should all go out and buy custom made hand forged titanium staples for $500 a box instead of regular staples. I mean the hand forged staples are the result of millions of dollars of research, top notch quality control, superior materials and tighter tolerances, so they must be better - even if there is no discernible difference in the way they attach two pieces of paper together.
 
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