I’m using TAC for my new load in my Tikka .223 T3 Varmint stainless. It’s a really fine ball powder and I find my Lee powder measure isn’t up to the task. I’m dropping kernels all over. Can anyone recommend a better powder measure?
P
P
- Thread starter Pharmseller
- Start date
Just bite the bullet and get a V3. You can even get used ones regularly here with the 419 kit on em now that the v4 is out. I shoot a lot of ball powder including tac and the v3 does very well once you get it tuned up. Just read about setting it up and have the straw angled a little but Upward and the speed somewhere just shy of the middle point and you will be very close.
Chargemaster works pretty well, but the V3 is great and more accurate and more consistent and faster.
+1 for an AutoTrickler
Borrow a plain Jane RCBS or Redding measure.
Set it, drop 20 charges and weigh each one. If your technique is even remotely good they will be super consistent.
The Chargemaster doesn't really like ball powders, nor does that Lee.
Extruded powders are a different story.
With the money you saved by buying a powder measure, you can afford more components.
It takes about two minutes to drop 50 charges with ball powder.
With the time saved, you can shoot more.
Set it, drop 20 charges and weigh each one. If your technique is even remotely good they will be super consistent.
The Chargemaster doesn't really like ball powders, nor does that Lee.
Extruded powders are a different story.
With the money you saved by buying a powder measure, you can afford more components.
It takes about two minutes to drop 50 charges with ball powder.
With the time saved, you can shoot more.
Basically anything but Lee. I mean, you kinda started with something so janky a tweaker wouldn't steal it. Ball powder out of an RCBS thrower will meter like water.
I have a hornady powder measure that throws cfe223(spherical) at +-.05 gr or less. As stated above extruded can be a shit show. H1k +-.1, varget is about the same, but h4831 long cut is stupid inconsistent.
Now the dillon slide bar throws titgroup equally as well if the process is the same. Any additional steps and it throws over from the flake powder settling/"compressing".
Now the dillon slide bar throws titgroup equally as well if the process is the same. Any additional steps and it throws over from the flake powder settling/"compressing".
How about an RCBS Competition?
Last edited:
Might as well step up to a Harrell's and you get the very repeatable micrometer adjustment.
I also have a Hornady and ball powder is extremely consistent usually after the first pull after making an adjustment. I usually just pull twice and dump that back and then weigh on the third pull. It’ll stay the same after that.
The Lee Perfect Powder measure is supposed to be one of the best at metering powder. I have never used mine, I always use my RCBS thrower. Most of them are pretty good with ball powder.
The Lee is a POS but works well. The mounting flexes, the adjustment markings are all but worthless and the paint wears off it. I've had one for 20 years.
Always wanted a Redding BR, but didn't have a good enough reason to do it.
As a machinist the Harrells gets my respect on looks alone. But never had the opportunity to use one.
The Lee powder measure and a Redding scale have since been supplanted with a V4.
Always wanted a Redding BR, but didn't have a good enough reason to do it.
As a machinist the Harrells gets my respect on looks alone. But never had the opportunity to use one.
The Lee powder measure and a Redding scale have since been supplanted with a V4.
I have the Hornady, but that competition model will suit you fine.
If you're shooting ball around 600 or less the RCBS with micrometer, Redding, or harrels is the way to go.
I wouldn't screw with the AT or charge master even if they were the same price as a manual thrower. Just not worth the aggregating or time.
Btw I say that as a guy that had a harrels and a v3, never shot past 600, and only uses ball.
I sold the v3.
I love my harrels but wouldn't pay for the needle bearings again.
Good move on the RCBS!
I wouldn't screw with the AT or charge master even if they were the same price as a manual thrower. Just not worth the aggregating or time.
Btw I say that as a guy that had a harrels and a v3, never shot past 600, and only uses ball.
I sold the v3.
I love my harrels but wouldn't pay for the needle bearings again.
Good move on the RCBS!
Last edited:
Just an update, my Hornady with A1680 is very consistently measured on an Fx120i tonight. 0.04 difference after 50 rds of 300 Blk getting loaded. Most of the time 0.02 or on the money. From an 8” barrel It doesn’t seem to make a difference. I didn’t have exact numbers when I posted previously but wanted to state it accurately. 
Edit: Here’s the SD Seekins SP8
Edit: Here’s the SD Seekins SP8
Last edited:
My RCBS lite consistently has me shooting tiny groups. Can’t see the point spending 4 times as much just because it’s the latest and greatest and measures to the kernel.
Same with mine. I check it on my beam scale consistently but it’s never been off enough to bother. I get more than acceptable SD and ES out of my loads as well. I think I paid $150 for mine when I bought it. I just can’t see anything else making me a better shooter.
Been using a plain old RCBS measure that my son purchased for me a couple of decades ago. I can throw powder charges faster than waiting on his electronic powder measurer and trickler and i still weigh the charges on a beam scale anyway. Works great, gets me single digit SD's.
It works, can't say much else really works that much better or conveniently.
All this said, yes there are nicer tools and if a fellow can afford them and wants them, I say go for it. This is the same comparison of a Mercedes compared to a Chevy Pickup. Both will get you where you are going, but some people prefer and appreciate the niceties of a very expensive Merceds and others and just as happy arriving in a 1995 Miata. (which is Me, either in the Miata or the Chevy Pickup. (technically GMC))
Last edited:
You will be just fine with the RCBS.
I have them all - Uniflow, Redding, Horn, Lee, Harells, Lyman ( new and old ) as well as several dispensers ( CM, LITE, Etc ). One of these days I'll do a group photo LOL.
The Lee Perfect Powder Measure has always been A+ for me with the ball stuff like H355 & TAC but they are pretty flimsy and the QC is not always there so there are a number of YouTube videos showing how to tune them.
But I'll be honest, the Harrells is my favorite followed by the Redding. They just feel better.
I have them all - Uniflow, Redding, Horn, Lee, Harells, Lyman ( new and old ) as well as several dispensers ( CM, LITE, Etc ). One of these days I'll do a group photo LOL.
The Lee Perfect Powder Measure has always been A+ for me with the ball stuff like H355 & TAC but they are pretty flimsy and the QC is not always there so there are a number of YouTube videos showing how to tune them.
But I'll be honest, the Harrells is my favorite followed by the Redding. They just feel better.
I think there are few and far between that can shoot the difference. Not between those two but between those two and anything below.
I put myself in the latter. Best and Nice are great but the cost and the ROI are probably far apart until you get to measurable level on target.
Bullshit. Watching your ES/SD drop in half will shrink your WEZ which will result in more hits.
Not to mention if you shoot any of the BR disciplines or ELR you live and die by your ES.
People say that kind of shit just prove they do not have the knowledge and experience they think they do.
Feniks Technologies
Premium Ammunition and Loading Supplies
Supporter
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Your SD won’t drop by half from something like a charge master to an auto trickler. It’s been tested to death. In fact, many top F and BR still use them.
Also, the only BR discipline that care about chrono data are the longer range. Short range throws on harrels and such and most have no idea what their chrono numbers are. They don’t even know what the actual charge weight is. Just the clicks on the thrower.
Also, SD is a far, far more important statistic than ES. Those still looking more so at ES aren’t fully informed/educated on the differences.
Feniks Technologies
Premium Ammunition and Loading Supplies
Supporter
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Also, ball powder with a good manual thrower can be very consistent. Plenty good to shoot practical stuff.
You won’t half your SD with a good thrower and ball powder going to an electronic thrower.
In fact, if you’re looking for speed at the bench, unless you have a Prometheus (and now possibly a v3 with ingenuity), then a thrower like harrels will ball powder will significantly speed up your process.
You won’t half your SD with a good thrower and ball powder going to an electronic thrower.
In fact, if you’re looking for speed at the bench, unless you have a Prometheus (and now possibly a v3 with ingenuity), then a thrower like harrels will ball powder will significantly speed up your process.
Last edited:
Deathbydiscount,
Your statement is nothing but bullshit.
If buying the best of everything prevented bad loading, then tell me why, when I'm at the range, I see some of the best equipment that can't make consistent hits at 800yds?
These guys load on their top dollar equipment. They have rifles with top tier optics. They even drive $90k vehicles.
If buying the best loading scale/measure makes all the difference in the world, why are they having ES/SD issues? Why can't they consistently hit the target?
It's because some people can fuck up a pushup.
It's because some people just can't shoot for shit.
It's because buying the best doesn't make you the best.
Buying the best doesn't mean a person automatically uses it correctly. If it did, we'd buy the best golf clubs and become the Tiger Woods of the early 2000s.
If buying the best car made the difference, we'd all become Mario Andretti.
Buying the best scale/measure just means we have the opportunity to charge the cases correctly.
But then, there's still resizing, primer seating and topping it all with a projectile.
All of that has to be done correctly or you still end up with shit.
It's too bad that loading great ammunition requires more than one step, otherwise you could have been right.
Your statement is nothing but bullshit.
If buying the best of everything prevented bad loading, then tell me why, when I'm at the range, I see some of the best equipment that can't make consistent hits at 800yds?
These guys load on their top dollar equipment. They have rifles with top tier optics. They even drive $90k vehicles.
If buying the best loading scale/measure makes all the difference in the world, why are they having ES/SD issues? Why can't they consistently hit the target?
It's because some people can fuck up a pushup.
It's because some people just can't shoot for shit.
It's because buying the best doesn't make you the best.
Buying the best doesn't mean a person automatically uses it correctly. If it did, we'd buy the best golf clubs and become the Tiger Woods of the early 2000s.
If buying the best car made the difference, we'd all become Mario Andretti.
Buying the best scale/measure just means we have the opportunity to charge the cases correctly.
But then, there's still resizing, primer seating and topping it all with a projectile.
All of that has to be done correctly or you still end up with shit.
It's too bad that loading great ammunition requires more than one step, otherwise you could have been right.
Did you ever test thrown vs weighed charges? At a range?
I think this has boiled down to a ”if you don’t spend the money to purchase the most expensive equipment, you are stupid, no good and can’t shoot worth a shit” as opposed to, ”hey, my old 20 year old, old fashioned stuff is still working just fine., and spending more money is dumb, stupid and crazy” Type of discussion.
I’m just as much a snob as the fellow who purchases a $1500.00 powder trickler.
Fellows, if it works for you, go with it. If it does not, try something else, but just because its expensive, does not make it better, only nicer.
Remember, its the nut holding the trigger that really determines the accuracy.
I’m just as much a snob as the fellow who purchases a $1500.00 powder trickler.
Fellows, if it works for you, go with it. If it does not, try something else, but just because its expensive, does not make it better, only nicer.
Remember, its the nut holding the trigger that really determines the accuracy.
TAC works in my Dillon like water. Always perfect.
The reason TAC wont work in your Lee is the reason the Lee is probably so great for powders like I4064 and 4895.
It is probably built so sloppy that those logs get metered perfectly by it and it is highly recommended for their use but slippery old TAC goes sifting through all that "imprecision" and ends up on your bench.
The reason TAC wont work in your Lee is the reason the Lee is probably so great for powders like I4064 and 4895.
It is probably built so sloppy that those logs get metered perfectly by it and it is highly recommended for their use but slippery old TAC goes sifting through all that "imprecision" and ends up on your bench.
Have to agree on this only, with this fella this time. With all that we spend on glass and guns and bullets, it's insane to me not to use an auto trickler. Save up for it, do what you have to do, but it's sooooo much easier and better. I haven't "upgraded " to the V4 because I don't know what advantage it really gives plus I am on the list for the ingenuity trickler thing which won't work for the v4. Honestly with that new ingenuity, I can't see any reason for me to ever move away from the V3. It's a very worth while investment.
Ball powders can be done pretty consistently using other devices though, I'd defer to others on just how consistently vs the v3 with a AD120
Last edited:
Question would be what are you buying the Autotrickler and Prometheus for? To the kernel accuracy? That's not going to matter much or you can't shoot the difference. This has been proven over and over again. For speed? I could see the point of that, but then again, I know people who run multiple tricklers and can get the same result. I like nice gear as much as the next guy, but I still can't justify getting a 1500 dollar machine that isn't any faster then what I currently run now.
I bought the Hornady kit and have recorded quite many lots of ammo I have throwed.
Here is N540 or N140, N540 meters slightly better.
Charge at "100%" was 25.36gr.
Edit:
Here are all 3 of my tests that I have now graphed. The first test was one of my first runs with it and I had not yet formed a technique to using it. (One the reasons I started documenting)
Looks like .1gr is the SD that is to be expected when using it properly (no yanking the lever, avoiding shaking the table). I do use it swiftly.
Here is N540 or N140, N540 meters slightly better.
Charge at "100%" was 25.36gr.
Edit:
Here are all 3 of my tests that I have now graphed. The first test was one of my first runs with it and I had not yet formed a technique to using it. (One the reasons I started documenting)
Looks like .1gr is the SD that is to be expected when using it properly (no yanking the lever, avoiding shaking the table). I do use it swiftly.
Last edited:
I really don't get the "can't shoot the difference " theory.... we all try to remove every variation we can to arrive at the point where our shots are "all us and not something else ". If getting a more accurate or more consistent load cuts my cone of fire down an inch or 2 in diameter , I have definitely made myself more accurate, regardless of me being able to shoot closer to center of that cone of fire every single time I go out(aka shoot the difference). I have given myself a smaller cone to work within.
When it's gets down to a very small degree, I can get behind the "shoot the difference " mantra, but there's a threshold we all try to get to and improving your load definitely helps in that pursuit.
Does that make sense?
I loaded 25 rounds of 6 Creedmoor recently with an AutoTrickler V3, and 25 with a Hornady powder thrower. H4350. The SD of the charges was indeed higher
What are you talking about? Maybe at your retard ranges but come out west where 800 yards is a chip shot and maybe you can learn something.
What is your national ranking in a precision shooting discipline that you do not use an AT or Prometheus?
I loaded 25 rounds of 6 Creedmoor recently with an AutoTrickler V3, and 25 with a Hornady powder thrower. H4350. The SD of the charges was indeed higher for the thrown charges. But both groups had SD 10fps when fired. So there may not always be any benefit to reducing the charge weight variance beyond that of a dropper.
Yes it will. Been there done that. Going from a CM lite with all the upgrades.
EVERYONE I know who shoots competitive and literally every f-class/BR guy I know and MOST of the top PRS guys I know are using them.
If you don't think ES is important, you don't know as much as you think you do. ELR guys have some things to teach you.
Have you done the testing on this? In my personal testing, with thrown with a thrower, vs, a trickler, vs to the kernel on the same loads yielded the same results. A lot of the stuff in reloading is really mental, people like to justify their purchases.
So you don't understand what the tool is for but find it funny?
Glad we got that cleared up.
For a site dedicated to long range precision fires there sure are alot of people who need to read more and post less.
Hate to tell you this but last year's F Class Nationals champ reloads on a ChargeMaster. To the kernel accuracy loads are not going to make you a top level shooter. There are way too many other variables in shooting for it make a difference that you can tell.
Says the person with over 1k post in 6 months.
This is a graph of charge weight vs velocity for the 25 thrown charges of H4350. You can see there is a relationship, as we know, but also that there is a ton of noise.
The key thing to understand is that noise does not add linearly. Many assume that is true and therefore even reducing a smaller source of error will result in a noticeable improvement in the system. But noise generally sums as the the root mean squared (so the combined effect of A and B is not A+B, it is sqrt(A^2 + B^2)). This means that the largest source of error tends to dominate, as it does here.
I’m not saying weighing charges never can make a difference. But it won’t always, and given the enormous time penalty it would be wise to test this in your system.
The key thing to understand is that noise does not add linearly. Many assume that is true and therefore even reducing a smaller source of error will result in a noticeable improvement in the system. But noise generally sums as the the root mean squared (so the combined effect of A and B is not A+B, it is sqrt(A^2 + B^2)). This means that the largest source of error tends to dominate, as it does here.
I’m not saying weighing charges never can make a difference. But it won’t always, and given the enormous time penalty it would be wise to test this in your system.
Yes I have tested it with a beam scale and vs chargemaster and the V3 is much more consistent, not to mention much easier. I was taught to load on a beam scale so I was partial to that but the results are simply not the same .
Did you test this by shooting the charges or just look at the weights?
For shiz n' giggles I tested a known accurate load with a small sample (20 rounds) of thrown loads at 1K. No wind holds/corrections, just elevation. Two sighters to find the center. One flyer at 1 O'clock that could be me or thrower tossed .2gr, I don't know. This +/- .1gr load gave an SD of 35fps. According to ballistic calcs, it equals +/- 5 inches.....that's within 1 MOA at 1,000 yds...
Yeah, makes a difference if you are shooting F-class or a 2 MOA steel. But maybe for the average Joe, does .02gr/1 kernel accuracy make a difference? I dunno, people here make it sound like you won't hit the side of a barn......
Yeah, makes a difference if you are shooting F-class or a 2 MOA steel. But maybe for the average Joe, does .02gr/1 kernel accuracy make a difference? I dunno, people here make it sound like you won't hit the side of a barn......
I think the other question would be what is the SD at the target with weighed charges.For shiz n' giggles I tested a known accurate load with a small sample (20 rounds) of thrown loads at 1K. No wind holds/corrections, just elevation. Two sighters to find the center. One flyer at 1 O'clock that could be me or thrower tossed .2gr, I don't know. This +/- .1gr load gave an SD of 35fps. According to ballistic calcs, it equals +/- 5 inches.....that's within 1 MOA at 1,000 yds...
Yeah, makes a difference if you are shooting F-class or a 2 MOA steel. But maybe for the average Joe, does .02gr/1 kernel accuracy make a difference? I dunno, people here make it sound like you won't hit the side of a barn......
A lot of people are going to jump on this and say an SD of 35 is horrible, not understanding this is measured at the target and not the muzzle, and therefore incorporates the effects of differing BC and wind as well.
You bring up a good point. There is a certain amount of BC variability in each of the rounds themselves that affect velocity in flight. It's entirely possible that the SD at the muzzle could have been lower, which makes an argument that a .1gr variation may even be less important. The Shotmarker is not "calibrated" and velocities may be completely inaccurate. As stated, this is a small sample and there could be other variables that put these results in a better light.
Last edited:
Attachments
Similar threads
