Help with high ES

[IdahoSpud]

I was thinking maybe if you did a ladder 20 off and 50 off to see if the load would be happier at a longer coal. But the mag is what? 2.260”? They make mags that allow a longer coal.

I went down the rabbit hole looking at longer mags to accommodate that. Most required another chassis which I considered but I already started off loading them .002 off the lands and so on and ran into the same problem.

I started off with 75 grain Berger’s. Ended up in the same situation after 100 rounds of attempting load development so idk why I suck so bad.

 

[918v]

Do your bullets have a ring on the nose close to the tip after you seat them?

 

[IdahoSpud]

Do your bullets have a ring on the nose close to the tip after you seat them?

Ooof. Yes.....what does that mean.... an answer to why I suck so bad?

 

[918v]

It means your seating pressure is too high. Maybe because you are compressing the powder or too much friction in the neck or both. If you’re not compressing the powder then you should lube the neck with graphite prior to charging it and seating the bullet. If you’re compressing the powder then you should use a funnel with a long drop tube and drop the charge slowly so it settles better in the case. What could be happening is the powder column is pushing the bullets back out after you seat them.

 

[IdahoSpud]

It means your seating pressure is too high. Maybe because you are compressing the powder or too much friction in the neck or both. If you’re not compressing the powder then you should lube the neck with graphite prior to charging it and seating the bullet. If you’re compressing the powder then you should use a funnel with a long drop tube and drop the charge slowly so it settles better in the case. What could be happening is the powder column is pushing the bullets back out after you seat them.

Oh shit. That would explain a lot.


So to rule out which I guess I could hit them with my comparator before firing? If they are the same BTO then I know my necks are too tight?

 

[918v]

Oh shit. That would explain a lot.


So to rule out which I guess I could hit them with my comparator before firing? If they are the same BTO then I know my necks are too tight?

Yes

 

[918v]

Too tight or too rough. A lot of people say that you should lap the seater stem to make it fit the bullet better but most of the time it’s the seating pressure. I have found that anything over 85 PSI will leave marks on the bullet, but below that no problem.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Too tight or too rough. A lot of people say that you should lap the seater stem to make it fit the bullet better but most of the time it’s the seating pressure. I have found that anything over 85 PSI will leave marks on the bullet, but below that no problem.

Thanks for helping identify that. Sounds like that may be the issue. Either my neck tension is way too high or I’m compressing too much.

what velocities should I be shooting for with a 75grn .223? If it’s not neck tension I guess I have to drop down in the 22s where I’m only getting like 2600fps

 

[IdahoSpud]

Also, not sure I did this right but... Measure the case mouth before seating and after. It was .003/.004 larger so I don't think my neck tension was too far off...?

 

[918v]

I don’t shoot your combo but you’re 100 FPS faster than Hoddon’s data. Most people use 8208 for what you’re doing because it takes up less room in the case. They use Varget for 80’s seated out far because that way there is room in the case.

You can back off the charge or use a long drop tube. Or try tricking it in slowly then tapping the case on the table to settle the charge.

Also, make a dummy by seating a bullet into an empty case and that will eliminate the neck as the problem.

 

[IdahoSpud]

I don’t shoot your combo but you’re 100 FPS faster than Hoddon’s data. Most people use 8208 for what you’re doing because it takes up less room in the case. They use Varget for 80’s seated out far because that way there is room in the case.

You can back off the charge or use a long drop tube. Or try tricking it in slowly then tapping the case on the table to settle the charge.

Also, make a dummy by seating a bullet into an empty case and that will eliminate the neck as the problem.

So the dummy round still had a bit of a black ring on the bullet. But my measurements show the neck only expands 0.003” after seating a bullet.

Also, my bullets don’t appear to be pushing back out.

What’s the deal?

 

[918v]

Decrease seating pressure somehow. Graphite lube is the cheapest, easiest.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Decrease seating pressure somehow. Graphite lube is the cheapest, easiest.

@IdahoSpud

And/or get a mandrel/die. It costs very little, and between those two (graphite + mandrel) you should see a pretty dramatic decrease in ES/SD.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Sometimes its just weird shit, I had one particular lot of Lapua brass that the necks were unbelievably hard.
Brass was unfired, I pushed a mandrel through the neck and chamfered the necks, nothing else.

When I tried to seat the bullet I immediately knew something was wrong as it required above normal force to seat the bullet and the seating stem left a ring around the bullet tip.

Checked the neck ID with a gauge pin and it was exactly where I normally expand them, the necks were just too hard.

 

[918v]

Maybe it was the oxide from the annealing and they didn’t wax the case like they should have. That stuff is abrasive and will halt your bullet seating effort.

 

[IdahoSpud]

All right, things are starting to actually work like they’re supposed to. I played around down more where I had the best results. At 23.4 I got an SD of 8.3 and an ES of 23. Played around with seating depth. All well under 1” and I settled on one in the middle that shot 0.37” Yay.

 

[918v]

Good job!

 

[IdahoSpud]

Thanks for the help guys. I learned a ton from this thread.

Im going to play with a few different loads until I’m comfortable and then move onto loading for my 300 WinMag for some real fun

 

[Mudflap621]

I’d also recommend getting an expander mandrel and seeing if that helps. You’ll always have a use for it down the road. I also run 21st century but brownells also sells them. I noticed a large improvement in seating consistency.

Can you hear the powder compressing? It’ll be like a crunching sound. I haven’t broken into my Lapua yet but I’m running 24gr of varget under a 77smk in LC brass and I get a small crunch right at the very end. I’m seated 5 thousandths off lands and a COAL of 2.29 also outa a t3 varmint.

 

[IdahoSpud]

I’d also recommend getting an expander mandrel and seeing if that helps. You’ll always have a use for it down the road. I also run 21st century but brownells also sells them. I noticed a large improvement in seating consistency.

Can you hear the powder compressing? It’ll be like a crunching sound. I haven’t broken into my Lapua yet but I’m running 24gr of varget under a 77smk in LC brass and I get a small crunch right at the very end. I’m seated 5 thousandths off lands and a COAL of 2.29 also outa a t3 varmint.

Ive felt and heard the powder crunch from a compressed load before and I didn’t hear or feel it at 24 grains.

So this expander mandrel is used in conjunction with a regular FL die? Do you bump the shoulder and then run the mandrel to uniform the neck afterwards?

 

[Mudflap621]

Ive felt and heard the powder crunch from a compressed load before and I didn’t hear or feel it at 24 grains.

So this expander mandrel is used in conjunction with a regular FL die? Do you bump the shoulder and then run the mandrel to uniform the neck afterwards?

Yes you will want to take the gutz out of the rcbs full length die. I than run cases through the mandrel just before loading.

 

[Mudflap621]

Left die is a fl Redding with decap rod and expander removed.
Right is 21st century mandrel and die body.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Yes you will want to take the gutz out of the rcbs full length die. I than run cases through the mandrel just before loading.

I really need to learn how these dies work ha ha… So in an FL die the “guts“ consist of the D capping pin which also has an expander on it that acts like a mandrel to resize the neck?

I plan on ditching these RCBS for another set of Forster ultra micrometer dies. I guess I will still need a separate mandrel?

 

[918v]

I really need to learn how these dies work ha ha… So in an FL die the “guts“ consist of the D capping pin which also has an expander on it that acts like a mandrel to resize the neck?

I plan on ditching these RCBS for another set of Forster ultra micrometer dies. I guess I will still need a separate mandrel?

Yes. You remove the expander ball. Then you use the mandrel die in lieu of the expander ball. You can get different size mandrels to control neck tension.

 

[Mudflap621]

I really need to learn how these dies work ha ha… So in an FL die the “guts“ consist of the D capping pin which also has an expander on it that acts like a mandrel to resize the neck?

I plan on ditching these RCBS for another set of Forster ultra micrometer dies. I guess I will still need a separate mandrel?

Your correct you will want to remove at very least the expander ball. Some guys keep the recapping pin if they use it, I decap with a universal die in another step.

Seperate mandrel would be needed with the Forster as well.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Lapua 223 brass still has thick necks compared to most everything else.

Originally I solved it by neck turning but got tired of that for 223 so I tried using a .001" larger ID bushing in my Redding sizing die. Recently I went with a Mighty Armory sizing die that has the built in mandrel.

Last time I tested the Lapua brass load with 77 TMK .010 to lands, 23.2 8208XBR , and Federal 205, I had an SD of 8 using a Labradar with 5- shot strings. I forgot to write down the ES but if I remember right it was 12.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Huh. I wonder if I got in a hurry and choked. Loaded up more and went back. First 5 shot group was awful at 1.05.

Then I shot a 3 round group at 0.3” and a 5 round at 0.4”.

Uhhh. Guess I’m going to have to shoot a handful more of these and make sure that was my shooting

 

[918v]

Map out your node, powder charge vs coal, and use the middle. That way your groups will be consistent.

 

[IdahoSpud]

SWEET BABY JESUS.

First group at 300 yards

I really hope this load is stable. So far it seems to be.

 

[IdahoSpud]

How many would you load and shoot before considering it safe? I shot five 3 round groups, two five round groups, and they all look plenty good

 

[Rocketmandb]

How many would you load and shoot before considering it safe? I shot five 3 round groups, two five round groups, and they all look plenty good

You're probably good - go shoot a bunch and find out!

 

[spife7980]

How many would you load and shoot before considering it safe? I shot five 3 round groups, two five round groups, and they all look plenty good

In that case I load up 10 and stick em in one group. If you can live with the results you’re good to go.
Usually I try to proof it out myself over several weekends before I’ll load several hundred of em but I have time and patience to piddle as much as I desire.

 

[IdahoSpud]

In that case I load up 10 and stick em in one group. If you can live with the results you’re good to go.
Usually I try to proof it out myself over several weekends before I’ll load several hundred of em but I have time and patience to piddle as much as I desire.

Gotcha. That’s my only concern is loading up all 100 and then having to pull most of them back apart. I suppose I’ll load up 20 get a time to prove it to myself before I start loading a ton.

 

[PilotCFII]

Others have answered about neck tension, but let me add my voice to theirs. I find that 0.002" neck tension works best for me. Your mileage may vary as they say, but consistent neck tension is important. Remove the expander ball from your sizing die and get and expander mandrel. I have 3 so I can set 0.001-0.003" to see which works in my application. 21st Century mandrels are really good, and I believe can be obtained in half thousanth sizes.
Do try varying seating depth. The jury is still out for me on recent tests, but firing 3 shot sets at varying seating depths showed promise of better ES & SD, and they were accompanied by decent groups. I used 7 groups of 3 at 0.003" steps in seating depth. Your choice may vary. AT least one nationally ranked F-Class shooter tried 0.001". Me and my rifle would never be able to take advantage of that but perhaps you and your Tikka can.
Good luck.

 

[10X Rifles]

Try more powder! 24.1 gr Varget with a bare 75-77 bullet. 24.5 with moly. Match load for a .223 You're not filling the case enough, Bring up your load density. Try different bullets. 77 gr SMK or 77 gr TMK.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Try more powder! 24.1 gr Varget with a bare 75-77 bullet. 24.5 with moly. Match load for a .223 You're not filling the case enough, Bring up your load density. Try different bullets. 77 gr SMK or 77 gr TMK.

I’m good with .3MOA at 2800fps...

About to resize all my brass and try it again. Hopefully I don’t loose it by bumping the shoulder less. Not sure it was completely fire formed last time.