Advanced Marksmanship Heresy! Todd Hodnett says bubble level is essential!

[ma smith]

You also don’t need a horizon. Not sure why that keeps coming up.

Because Todd Hodnett[sp] was pilot, and pysiological spatial dis-orientation is a fact of human physiology.

Visual meteorological conditions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When operating outside of VMC human pysiology is subject to spatial disorientation

Spatial Disorientation | SKYbrary Aviation Safety

Definition Spatial disorientation is defined as the inability of a pilot to correctly interpret aircraft attitude, altitude or airspeed in relation to the Earth or other points of reference.

www.skybrary.aero

To counteract this, artifical atitude indcator is used

Attitude indicator - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(ie, 3-DOF-level or artificial horizon)
To operate in these conditions, you need certification with the tools

Instrument rating - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This brings us to the question at hand: do .mil snipers ever operate ouside of VMC?

 

[Rant Durden]

I shot the Guardian this weekend and as I am a barely competent shooter I was paired with a much better shooter on day two for the team portion of the event. On the long stage in which all targets are between 800-1000 yards, he pulled out a level and attached it to some wazoo deal on his scope mount. At the end of the stage he took it off and put it away. I asked and he said he only used it at those distances and beyond. I didn't have a level and did pretty well on that stage. My problem wasn't a lack of wazoo gear, I missed because I have trouble spotting targets AND I suck at building positions. This is because I didn't properly prepare. It's WAAAY easier to buy some cool shit than it is to train. And I bet it's way easier to get folks to buy tchotchkes than buy training and practice.

 

[_Windrider_]

I shot the Guardian this weekend and as I am a barely competent shooter I was paired with a much better shooter on day two for the team portion of the event. On the long stage in which all targets are between 800-1000 yards, he pulled out a level and attached it to some wazoo deal on his scope mount. At the end of the stage he took it off and put it away. I asked and he said he only used it at those distances and beyond. I didn't have a level and did pretty well on that stage. My problem wasn't a lack of wazoo gear, I missed because I have trouble spotting targets AND I suck at building positions. This is because I didn't properly prepare. It's WAAAY easier to buy some cool shit than it is to train. And I bet it's way easier to get folks to buy tchotchkes than buy training and practice.

Exactly the whole point of what most of us have been saying.

 

[Tokay444]

My level cost me $3500 because that’s what it takes to get one I can trust from my craft.
Your $.03 bubble in a $3.00 cage and put into a $.02 box with a $60.00 price tag aren’t anything I would call trust worthy.
Most of the time the inside of the tubes aren’t cylindrical. The bubble conforms to the tube’s shape. If you rotate the tube keeping it true level, the bubble will appear to move as it distorts to conform to the irregularities of the tube. So as your angle of engagement increases, your bubble tells you gun is moving when it very well may not be. But what can you actually expect for $60.00? Or the $6.00 the thing is actually worth?

 

[ma smith]

Your $.03 bubble in a $3.00 cage and put into a $.02 box with a $60.00 price tag aren’t anything I would call trust worthy.

+1 Even most bricklayer are using stabilla level made in germany

Products - STABILA Messgeräte Gustav Ullrich GmbH (EN-US)

www.stabila.com

 

[Tokay444]

Here’s a nice cheap Japanese one.

Mitutoyo 960-613 Precision Level, 0.00024"/12"

Mitutoyo 960-613 Precision Level, 0.00024"/12". Great savings PLUS Free Shipping when you order online at ITM.com.

www.itm.com

 

[ilsrwy27]

Spatial disorientation can occur when being subjected to some level of acceleration in the absence of visual references.
Shooters will never experience this so inferring their need for a level is somehow linked to spatial disorientation is asinine.

If Todd Hardnett came up with this "explanation" then he is in dire need of some serious remedial flight instruction.
Or maybe he is making it up and using credentialism to sell a product to people unfamiliar with aviation physiology.

Either way, this is the most flawed line of reasoning I have come across in a long time.

Because Todd Hodnett[sp] was pilot, and pysiological spatial dis-orientation is a fact of human physiology.

Visual meteorological conditions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When operating outside of VMC human pysiology is subject to spatial disorientation

Spatial Disorientation | SKYbrary Aviation Safety

Definition Spatial disorientation is defined as the inability of a pilot to correctly interpret aircraft attitude, altitude or airspeed in relation to the Earth or other points of reference.

www.skybrary.aero

To counteract this, artifical atitude indcator is used

Attitude indicator - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(ie, 3-DOF-level or artificial horizon)
To operate in these conditions, you need certification with the tools

Instrument rating - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This brings us to the question at hand: do .mil snipers ever operate ouside of VMC?

 

[ma smith]

Spatial disorientation can occur when being subjected to some level of acceleration in the absence of visual references.

Spatial disorientation can occur for reasons as simple as head cold.

And "acceleration" can occur for reasons as simple as gravity (eg fatigue)

The gravity of Earth, denoted by g, is the net acceleration that is imparted to objects due to the combined effect of gravitation (from mass distribution within Earth) and the centrifugal force (from the Earth's rotation).

Gravity of Earth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Head colds and fatigue are common at altitude

Altitude sickness, the mildest form being acute mountain sickness (AMS), is the negative health effect of high altitude, caused by rapid exposure to low amounts of oxygen at high elevation. Symptoms may include headaches, vomiting, tiredness, trouble sleeping, and dizziness.

AMS occurs in about 20% of people after rapidly going to 2,500 metres (8,000 ft) and 40% of people going to 3,000 metres (10,000 ft)

 

[ilsrwy27]

No, the earth's gravity doesn't induce spacial disorientation for the simple reason that it is constant at 9.81m/s
If it does for you then you should have someone rush you to the ER because scope levels are the least of your problems.

In fact it is the earth' s gravity that allows our inner ears to tell our brain what position we are in (works well most of the time).
Without that mechanism we would not be able to walk in the dark and blind people would be crawling on the ground.

Spacial disorientation often happens because the pilot was subjected to varying levels of acceleration in different directions.
A typical case would be abruptly coming out of a long constant rate turn (I'm sure you can find that online, it's in every IFR book)
Some people are more subject to spatial disorientation than others and if we are going to nitpick, it can also happen in VMC.
That you won't find in every IFR book because it is something few have witnessed and lived to tell how and why it happens.

But please, feel free to go back to quoting Wikipedia and continuing making a fool of yourself on a subject you know nothing about

 

[ma smith]

Cool story, bro

 

[Lowlight]

Funny I screenshot this yesterday from CoryT at the Gunsite class

This is what I am saying operator error that people are singing the praises of a level when they have no clue how to use a level and the context in which they claim the level helps them is crazy stupid, shorter rangers, off flat bottom rifles weighting 20+LBS and in a sand bag, how is a level helping at 400 off a prop on a 2 MOA PLATE

People mess up ballistic calculators every single day and miss a target because of it

You are using it wrong.

PS his post above was written in 2018, 2 years ago I have 10x more evidence on my side than any other in all of this

 

[striped1]

Wait, I thought Lowlight had come around and finally embraced levels based on the last podcast. I just bought one Accuracy 1st for every one of my scoped rifles. WTF...I am not getting a sense he has fully embraced.

 

[seansmd]

Funny I screenshot this yesterday from CoryT at the Gunsite class


View attachment 7477387

This is what I am saying operator error that people are singing the praises of a level when they have no clue how to use a level and the context in which they claim the level helps them is crazy stupid, shorter rangers, off flat bottom rifles weighting 20+LBS and in a sand bag, how is a level helping at 400 off a prop on a 2 MOA PLATE

People mess up ballistic calculators every single day and miss a target because of it

You are using it wrong.

PS his post above was written in 2018, 2 years ago I have 10x more evidence on my side than any other in all of this

Tippy toe

 

[Tokay444]

No, the earth's gravity doesn't induce spacial disorientation for the simple reason that it is constant at 9.81m/s
If it does for you then you should have someone rush you to the ER because scope levels are the least of your problems.

In fact it is the earth' s gravity that allows our inner ears to tell our brain what position we are in (works well most of the time).
Without that mechanism we would not be able to walk in the dark and blind people would be crawling on the ground.

Spacial disorientation often happens because the pilot was subjected to varying levels of acceleration in different directions.
A typical case would be abruptly coming out of a long constant rate turn (I'm sure you can find that online, it's in every IFR book)
Some people are more subject to spatial disorientation than others and if we are going to nitpick, it can also happen in VMC.
That you won't find in every IFR book because it is something few have witnessed and lived to tell how and why it happens.

But please, feel free to go back to quoting Wikipedia and continuing making a fool of yourself on a subject you know nothing about

9.81m/s/s, or 9.81m/s^2

 

[C.R. Adams]

this is my personal take on levels...................... Do I want the level to do a job or do i want the level to train me how to do a job? I settle into my shooting position, glance at the level, "Ok, i'm level........... this is what level feels like. This is the feeling I want to reproduce for each position".............. OR.......... i settle into a position, glance at the level, "Oh, i'm off. Let's square up. ok, this is what level feels like. This is the feeling i want to reproduce for each position".

This take, closely ties to the occupational therapy i went through a number of years back after being in a car accident. My balance was a bit out of whack. especially with my eyes closed or head in certain positions. One treatment I received was to relearn what level felt like. various exercises of me standing and closing my eyes, standing from one leg to another, etc. yes, there was always a wall or chair near me to catch me and i could always open my eyes at any point, but the ultimate goal was to learn how it felt. To me, the level, is to teach me how level feels and then it's up to me to reproduce that feeling. with my ability to accurately reproduce this 'feeling' becoming more consistent over time.

the 'level' in our ears and our ability to recognize level is pretty damn well evolved. Some of use don't have quite the acuity of others, but by no means does that mean we are unable to develop such acuity.

 

[Fig]

Wait, I thought Lowlight had come around and finally embraced levels based on the last podcast. I just bought one Accuracy 1st for every one of my scoped rifles. WTF...I am not getting a sense he has fully embraced.

 

[brianf]

For the older guys /trainers who kept data books not just ballistic apps.

When teaching students (pre/without level) were the students consistent in their “not level” position or they were anywhere from 11:00-1:00 etc

Im wondering if the wide use of ballistic solutions which is set for a level weapon system has made this more apparent.

Old school data books the shooter might have a few adjustments as the distance increases because he’s really compensating for cant but doesn’t know it.

And because his position is repeated the can’t is always there...so his dope is always good/accurate.

Just thinking early in the morning.

 

[Enough Said]

if one obstructs half of a sight picture with a with a dense grid of lines that one must then rely upon as a reticle, I can see why one would need a bubble to figure out which way is up. "Sell them a dense grid, then sell them a bubble so they know which way is up. It's for the KIDS."