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Horizontal Dispersion

Chiller

Moderator
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Dec 18, 2008
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    Sole resident of Mt. Crumpit.
    What skills or drills can I work on to improve my horizontal dispersion?
    I use my 300 yard shots as a check to see what is happening, and I am currently shooting ovals. I have been able to get a good grip on my breathing and as such I am seeing .5 moa or less in the vertical (on a good day .25 and less) where I am finding frustration is in the horizontal. I understand the concepts of applying pressure in a linear fashion straight back to keep everything inline. I also understand the importance of follow through (I do admit I do jump off the trigger on occasion).
    What drills can I do to bring my game back into balance.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Dry fire, from what I saw in your shooting last time, you're pressure on the grip is not correct, you're trying to hold the rifle too lightly, and while the trigger might be good, you have to control the weapon.

    Generally, the firing hand has two purposes, first and foremost to manipulate the trigger and fire the weapon, secondary is gripping and holding the rifle into the shoulder pocket.

    You dont want to over grip it, but you have to support the rifle. Then, trigger is the most important element to controlling the horizontal, aside from NPA, it's trigger, trigger, and more trigger.

    Isolating the muscles, making sure you're not shouldering the weapon or potentially that you have a sympathetic squeeze with the firing hand... so the keys to all this:

    Dry Fire.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Frank,

    I am doing the dry fire drill as prescribed and I am watching for any shift in the POI as I manipulate the trigger. I will review my notes and the online. I am trying to consciously use my three fingers to “pull” the stock straight back into my shoulder. I am applying pressure with the tips of my fingers along the vertical mold line of the AICS so as not to induce a torque on the chassis.
    I will continue to do as advised and look forward to any and all other input.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Let me throw something into the mix here. There are a couple of "canonical" rules of marksmanship I've actually gone against in figuring out what works best for me. Trigger finger placement is one of them.

    It's generally taught that you want to use the meat between the tip and first joint, and concentrate on pulling straight back. Related to this is keeping the trigger finger generally off the stock, etc.

    I don't teach that and personally don't recommend it. Instead, I always teach new shooters the "closed fist" approach. Wrap your hand around the stock and the trigger as though you're going to make a closed fist around them, and consider the trigger pull as a closing the fist motion. I've found that the "straight back" approach puts unnatural strain on your hand. It's an unnatural position and pulling back in a straight line is not the way those muscles were built to move. It's a little counter intuitive- straight should equal straight, but I think the strain and unnatural position can actually lead to unnecessary lateral movement, because your joints were not built to move in a straight line, and trying to maintain that through the pull can cause problems.

    By going with a close the fist model, you may find it's a lot easier and you don't have to think as much about your trigger finger. I also find you need to exert a lot less energy using the lower joints of your finger than the tip- again, it's a close the fist motion, which your hand is already adept at doing. You'll find doing it this way that the trigger naturally comes to rest much lower on the finger - usually between the first and second joints or even in the crevice of the second joint. But that's fine. Your muscles now have much less work to do and you can get your focus back on where it belongs- the sight picture and alignment!

    Now, the big caveat- there are plenty of great shooters on here with lots of real world experience, and they teach the other way. So take this as an alternative, not a challenge to the doctrine. I do some other things that would make some on here cringe
    wink.gif
    , but it works for me.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Chiller,

    You may be getting a sympathetic squeeze with the support hand.
    Don't worry about what feels natural, firing a rifle is an unnatural act. Besides that, the rifle doesn't give a shit if you are comfortable
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    There could be a multitude of errors for the groups you've described, but, Frank pretty much summed it up with his statements about trigger control and NPA. Remember too, you've got to control the rifle until recoil subsides, and, contact with the gun and ground: stock-weld, grip, non-firing hand, elbows, and butt-to-shoulder must be consistent to a molecular level when seeking the best result. Anything about your position which is less than perfect will produce less than perfect.

    In teaching folks how to shoot, most coming into class confusing executing the firing task with actually knowing something about good shooting, the first thing I do is get them to accept that the bullet will always go in the direction the gun is pointed. If the bullet does not go exactly where aimed, the misplacement's got to have something to do with the shooter not knowing where the gun is pointed, and/or not maintaining aim until the bullet has cleared the barrel. Outside of obvious errors, it comes down to getting a shooter to recognize the position must be consistent, again, until recoil has subsided.

    One way of recognizing consistency is though muscular relaxation. When the position is built with bone and artificial support, the position will be muscularly relaxed and the sort of varible muscular tension which is associated with inconsistency will not contribute to shots going someplace other than where aimed.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Big,

    There is no physiological way to come "straight back" on the trigger with your hand wrapped around the stock and your finger dug in to the joint... you're hand is not designed that way.

    it's the difference between form and accuracy. There are those that shoot well, but not consistent or repeatably well, they can execute one shot good, which in some cases is all you need, however bad form will never take you to the next level.

    A lot of people who were okay shooters will find they have a tear down of their body and position which will effect their shooting -- why because for too many years they have done it wrong and have consistently reinforced bad habits which now much be broken.

    If during our fundamentals eval we see a shooter who is exhibiting bad form yet shooting a 1/2" we don't ignore him and move on, we correct that form, usually at the short term cost to accuracy because they fight the changes, either from the outside or inside, however our job is to reinforce the good habits and not ignore the bad so the shooter feels good.

    Teaching a shooter to "drag wood" or to manipulate the trigger in a way that forces them to compromise proper trigger control goes against good instruction. In fact you are probably one of those who's rifle is zeroed to your mistakes as a shooter, which is why nobody else shoots your rifle well, which is why you're positional shooting is probably not that good either.

    Like Sterling said, consistency, driving the rifle through recoil and being able to execute the firing task without disturbing the rifle which in turn not only affects the sights, but the recoil of the rifle like Sterling said.

    The trigger finger - thumb - pinch, doesn't work and moves the whole hand, we have tried. and adapting yourself to compensate for lack of instruction or a poor shooting style doesn't mean this is a "technique" that can be re-taught over and over and be considered successful.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Lowlight, I don't wanna take on the master in his own house here
    smile.gif
    , but I had offered this up as an alternative, that's all. This sport (like many others) is full of people who do things in an unorthodox way. Some can't sit in a certain position to save their lives. Some can stick their elbow firmly into their hip for bone support, others couldn't if they tried.

    Remember, as many on here told me themselves - the fundamentals are the basic building blocks. Take them and then find what works for you. In my opinion, the poster is beginning to overthink things, and I'm trying to get him to actually get back to the core part. Maybe this will work for him, maybe it won't. But just like some marathon runners go barefoot, sometimes a person's body just takes better to one thing over another. Ultimately, I don't think it's worth debating our approaches all that much- it's about this shooter getting more into "feeling it" than repeating steps in his mind, which we all know is what makes the holes start magically getting closer to their mark.

     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    my house or not, if you can't debate what you posted when called out on it, you might want to reconsider what you are doing because it sounds like it can't hold up to the most important question, "why"...

    I am all for debate and I am open to a better way if one exist, however you have to be able to tell me "why" ...

    Yes, the fundamentals are very vague but that doesn't mean they are open to doing them wrong... is breaking at the bottom of the breathing cycle open to interpretation ?

    If you can't put your finger correctly on the trigger, and if you're advocating compromising a straight pull, then I think it's wrong, and using the joint makes it "impossible" to pull the trigger straight to the rear, our hands don't work that way. Just look at your finger like its on a trigger, the crease in your joint moves left the bottom of the finger right.. There is no physical way to come straight back, it introduces an angle using the joint... unless you have some defect I have never seen ?

    Debating is the purpose of this site, if you think I will not listen to reasonable debate you haven't been paying attention. But it has to make sense and answer "why" body types usually stop at the trigger... saying you can't sit cross legged is one thing, saying you can compromise your trigger is another.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Fair enough. Here we go then
    smile.gif
    . I actually found while doing this that designing some diagrams was useful, so you'll see them included below.

    It all boils down to consistency for me. Now, you might think, what could be more consistent than pulling straight back, right? And I agree. But in my hand, what I suggested above actually ensures a more consistent, more repeatable straight back motion than the classic way. Here's the reason why-

    I want you to do an exercise for me (assuming a right handed shooter here). Wrap your hand as though around the stock, put your trigger finger straight out and then point it in at 9 o'clock. Now, in a very relaxed fashion, pull back with the tip of the finger. You'll find that the natural motion of the finger (especially the tip) is to curve inward, not straight back:

    hand1w.jpg


    Now do the same exercise with conscious effort to keep it straight as it pulls. You can do it, sure. But it requires a certain level of tension, and I guarantee an hour of this motion will tire out your finger much more than the natural closing motion. So in order to have consistency (that first important word), you have to do this tense motion the exact same way each time. Getting an unnatural motion perfectly consistent is much more difficult and prone to error than repeating a natural one that follows the joints' and muscles' natural range of motion.

    Ok, next step. This is basic mechanics- angular distance is equal to angle times length. This is why using the tip of the finger introduces the most potential torquing if you don't pull absolutely straight back. But if you use the closed fist approach, your length is much shorter and close to the center axis. Try this: hold out your shooting hand and pretend you're holding a bottle. Now shift your trigger finger away from the bottle and back to it, like you would be doing when pulling the trigger. You'll notice that with very little effort that the area around the second joint can be brought back almost completely straight.

    hand3.jpg


    Also while you're doing this, take a look at the tip of your finger- see how much more torque it's introducing? Remember- angle times length.

    As the final pitch, I find this part of my finger is much stronger, especially when this close to a fist, probably owing to the much larger joint controlling it. So with relatively no effort I can break like a glass rod, as opposed to the longer feel of pull and effort I feel is needed when using the tip.

    But, after all is said and done, it's a personal mechanics thing. Like I was saying, if we were all built after robot model #247-658E, rules could be set in stone
    smile.gif
    . But it's a taste and fit thing. Always remember- any instruction in a book was written by humans for other humans, plain and simple. It's not the word of a higher power. If anything, I find the only truism is to get out there and shoot, as many on here say, because then you *do* find what works best for you.

    Oh, and don't get me started on breathing patterns
    wink.gif
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.pilkguns.com/hometrainer.shtml

    It tells no lies. You are doing more wrong than you can comprehend at this point. The Rika will show you. </div></div>

    that is cool, I may get one
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.pilkguns.com/hometrainer.shtml

    It tells no lies. You are doing more wrong than you can comprehend at this point. The Rika will show you. </div></div>

    Ahh, you doctrine mongers. As long as I do my part on breathing and NPA, I'm holding sub MOA consistently at 600 with my bone stock rig. I'd love to know what exactly is the grievous wrong that is beyond my comprehension. Maybe if I refine my broken technique to sub 0.5 MOA repeatably at 1000y, then I shall see the errors of my ways.

    I have no problem with pedagogy and instruction, but relax man, this stuff doesn't come down from Mt. Sinai
    smile.gif
    . Good ol' Carlos did plenty fine in country without properly slinging up, which was another debate you and I had back over yonder. These aren't rules, they're guidelines. What ever happened to figuring out what works well for *you*? Every other sport has noticeable variances in how its athletes perform the same tasks, and each excels with what fits. Why do you think shooting is any different?

     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    From a vector summation discussion the “fist” approach would seem to be frought with issues.

    At 300 yards (10,800 inches) I am getting 3-5 inches of horizontal dispersion on paper. Making a small angle assumption and solving for the angle it would mean I am off by .0265 degrees from a straight pull back. I am willing to do of try anything to improve the results, I just don’t see mechanically or from a vector summation how this would improve the results.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From a vector summation discussion the “fist” approach would seem to be frought with issues.

    At 300 yards (129,600 inches) I am getting 3-5 inches of horizontal dispersion on paper. Making a small angle assumption and solving for the angle it would mean I am off by .0022 degrees from a straight pull back. I am willing to do of try anything to improve the results, I just don’t see mechanically or from a vector summation how this would improve the results.
    </div></div>

    Now that's my kind of thinking
    smile.gif
    . The short answer is- it very well might not. All I'm saying is, *if* (and that's a big if), the trigger squeeze is the problem, this is a potential solution. But if, as you suspect, it's something else, I've got a whole other bag of witch doctor black magic techniques I can offer up to get flamed for
    wink.gif
    .

    I will say this though- don't negate the effect of that so quickly, because I can turn around and say that the same minute variance is to blame from an off NPA, improper breathing, etc. Remember, at the point of shooting, all minute variances can lead to these dispersions- you yourself just showed it with the math.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Right, and I'm saying go try the suggestions- and see what works for YOU. Maybe more focus and refinement of the traditional technique is indeed the fix. Maybe a variance. Have at it!
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.pilkguns.com/hometrainer.shtml

    It tells no lies. You are doing more wrong than you can comprehend at this point. The Rika will show you. </div></div>

    Ahh, you doctrine mongers.
    </div></div>

    Spoken like a true sub-Marksman card level shooter.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    9H I love you. We really need to get together some time for shooting and drinks. But in that order
    smile.gif

     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At 300 yards (10,800 inches) I am getting 3-5 inches of horizontal dispersion on paper.</div></div>

    With my .308 load at that range, that magnitude of deviation can be caused by 5 mph of crosswind, a factor that no one has so far mentioned. I wonder why not? Perhaps not all of it is attributable to the wind, but <span style="font-style: italic">some</span> of it might certainly be.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    in the horizontal (this past weekend) I am shooting 1.6 MOA horizontal and .5 or less vertical. I am shooting ovals....

    Statistically I want to shoot circles.

    Lindy, as much as I would like to attribute it to the wind I feel alot of it was the nut behind the bolt.

    I just want to do better.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Chiller, out of curiosity, have you tried another rifle or do you know how you shoot pistol? I'm curious if your flaw is in the core basics or has something to do with the ergonomics of that particular rig.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    All,

    The only thing for sure here is that the rifle was pointed in the direction where bullets hit. There can be a multitude of shooter errors; and, since all firing takes place at the weapon, only the shooter can properly analyze the source/sources of error. As a coach, I would ask the shooter, how did that shot look. Shots on call, but not where wanted would reveal a possible problem with NPA, or trigger control, not wind. Upon firing again, I would tell the shooter to be sure to first get sight alignment/NPA in order, and then, adjust NPA to establish a relationship with the reticle and target. I'd also advise the shooter to be SMOOTH on the trigger. As far as the wind, I'd be sure to understand what the shooter is doing about it. BTW, a 5 MPH cross wind is easily worth 3 to 5 inches at 300 yards. And, if wind was the source of error, shots, of course, would not be going on call.

    Where I'm going with all of this is when the shooter follows through, to be able to call the shot, the source/s of error/s can be found and corrected quickly, within a second or two, while still on the range. In fact, if things didn't improve quickly, the shooter might want a better coach.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Charles,

    Any time you are out west here in Vegas. Please give me a shout, would love to have you come out to the range (my treat). Bottom line is, I want to do better.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Lowlight - I've got no doubt your way will prove superior. You've been shooting for years this way and it's what you know, love, and works.

    I can't understand why you guys aren't getting the main point of what I'm posting- there are alternate ways that might prove better for some people. THAT'S IT. Neither you nor 9H have answered my basic question:

    "Every other sport has noticeable variances in how its athletes perform the same tasks, and each excels with what fits. Why do you think shooting is any different?"

    You have sprinters who run like ducks, pitchers who do their own unique windups, boxers with unorthodox stances.

    Forget it, it's gonna get me nowhere continuing to argue this. Chiller, you've seen what I've suggested, hope you try it, or don't, it's there for the usage.

    And Lowlight, obviously your video will show you doing better with your method. That's actually exactly what I'm saying above. Come on man
    wink.gif
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    A shooter's build will determine the techniques used to build a steady position. The elements of a steady position are the same for all: NPA, bone/artificial support, and, of course, muscular relaxation. The factors of a solid position are the same for all too: elbows, non-firing hand, grip, stock-weld, and butt-to-shoulder.

    Regarding trigger contol, it must be smooth. It's easy to get smooth when the finger is positioned on the trigger to be muscularly relaxed.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Dude, we didn't beat up on your way of doing things in fact, initially at 100 yards we thought you were on to something, the difference really didn't appear until we hit 300 yards.

    The video is close up, and there is no denying we tried both ways with equal determination. There was no screwing around with this.

    What we found valid, was that your way it almost forces a good follow through. That it would be hard for anyone to "slap" the trigger.

    In fact, some of the groups were near identical, and only measuring it could you find any real difference, but there was a difference.

    Trying to over qualify it isn't necessary, but the video and the results don't lie, that I will say.

    At 100 yards, the difference in my groups was a .2 to .3 so we had a .1 dispersion... so, I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

    Here is the most telling of all the groups at 300 yards... I shot these one right after another... they are so close it's near impossible to tell, but one is a little better than the other.
    padjoint1.jpg


    I shot 6 sets at 300 yards and we took the average of the six groups... we honestly spent 2 hours on this, and took it very seriously.

    I have to say, you're awful whining about shit...
    smile.gif
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    you even get to see my rifle fuck up and me swearing it at it... I don't care.

    When you get abducted don't come crying to me because they probed you.
    smile.gif


    remember I have to do this on my laptop and then upload using my aircard, so you have to be patient, we spend all morning shooting it across two different rifles, two different kinds of triggers, so.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Lowlight, thanks for being both fair and objective in testing and presenting. Really interesting stuff to read.

    Re: whining, hey, it's either that or doing real work here at the office during the day, right?
    smile.gif


    I assumed you were of 9H's mentality on all this, i.e., here is what you must do, I will hear nothing else, and you're clearly an uninformed moron for suggesting anything otherwise. So sure, eventually I said f' it, it's a suggestion, use or don't use.

    I promised silence from here on out, but Chiller, there was one last parable I wanted to share against doggedly following doctrine, which is pretty relevant to this thread..

    My junior year of college, I had a roommmate who was a Marine. He had qualified at some high grade on the range (can't remember which level), and was pretty proud of the fact.

    I convinced him to come out with me and the rest of the college's shooting club one Sunday for a round of skeet.

    He ended up shooting the worst round of skeet I have ever seen in my life (3/25). Even the freshmen who had never held a gun before could usually shoot a 14 or 15. To say that he was frustrated was an understatement. He was making excuses, trying to rationalize, etc. after every miss. We kept telling him- relax, just go with it, it's not a target sport, it's a tracking/area sport. Just aim at the bird and go.

    I only realized years later what had happened. He was running through his head every principle and fundamental the DI or RO had drilled into him. He was so focused on following doctrine that he had lost all sense of intuition or feel for what he was doing. I had never seen such a low score on the field as a result- and I doubt many hide members who shoot skeet have either!

    Don't get me wrong- skeet is an entirely different beast than precision shooting, but it demonstrates what I'm talking about when it comes to thinking versus feeling.

    I've always felt the fundamentals are like booster rockets on a shuttle. You need them to hit a certain altitude, and after that, the ship is yours to steer. The more you shoot, the more you'll get a sense for your own intuition. Just be sure to foster it and not fall into chanting mantras or going over too many checklists!
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    It was interesting to play with, in fact while this is rendering I walked out with my handgun and tried it, and hit essentially the same, only a slight difference, when digging the finger in. For some reason I can group that way, but I hit high as opposed to when I use the pad of my finger. But I tried it with both my rifle and handgun, it gives you the appearance of more control, but still, at long range there are some small issues that are measurable.

    The question we have is, <span style="font-style: italic">we're pretty good on a trigger, so how does this work with someone who isn't ?</span>

    I essentially run the trigger the same, and the fact the difference became apparent at 300 yards, what does that mean for 1000 yards. I know for a fact I can, and do shoot sub moa horizontally at 1000 yards. I have two plates out there that are 8.75" wide, and I shoot them routinely, did so during a class over the weekend and had no issue hitting on my second round in an 18MPH wind... so I know I can adjust and hold that small of a target.

    So the question is repeatability, because I know enough really good shooters with piss poor form and that doesn't interest me, I want what can be taught, is repeatable among a variety of people and has positive results downrange That is the key for me...

    The video is almost finished and you'll be able to see the differences we zoomed in really well both ways.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Okay, here is the video, the key is to pay real close attention to the trigger finger, which won't be hard because we focus on that, but to note the movement of the trigger finger as it breaks the trigger.

    We used both a single stage and a 2 stage trigger for this, and as I stated we shot 6 sets of target, I only show 4 sets because I had a malfunction, twice which disrupted a group of each, so it was easy to toss those out. However with the 4 we show, the average group size for the Pad of the Finger was 1.5" at 300 yards and with the joint it was 1.9' at 300 yards.

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    We did everything we could to make this fair, we tried both methods each and I will say, at 100 yards, it was near impossible to tell one group from the other. It wasn't until we went to 300 did we see anything start to change, which at 300 yards was almost a 1/2MOA.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    You forgot to take the audio out
    wink.gif
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Lowlight, thanks for this, this was really great!

    I did notice another thing too in comparison to your video- I have really slim, long fingers- I know that shouldn't make a difference, but it's yet another factor that might be at play for what gets me the best results.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Good Thread.
    I use the finger pad.........Fat fingering the trigger is my main marksmanship problem. Requires constant maintenance. Dry Fire Dry Fire Dry Fire. Getting out the Anshutz is a real eye opener.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Oh also, Lowlight, not to beat a dead horse, but I was watching again and this isn't actually what I recommended. The approach I recommend places the thumb on the left side of the stock ("bottle" grabbing) and you use either the *second* joint or the meat between the second and first joints. It's much more of a full wrapping with the hand, closing most of the distances and making it so that the whole motion is more like squeezing to close the fist. Another way to think of it is like the motion required to operate the pneumatic bulb on a blood pressure meter. See my diagram above for what I mean. The approach you're showing is kind of a hybrid, and one which I myself probably wouldn't recommend.

    Don't know if you feel like making another vid or trying again- maybe just a range report without the AV component
    smile.gif
    . Or not, but I figured I'd chime in since we're already analyzing all the components carefully.

    -BB
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    BB,

    There is no way I can reach with any of those using the second joint, you have to have long fingers to do that, and using the second joint seems a lot worse than using the first joint.

    The second joint I would need a much bigger hand, as well wrapping the thumb over to the left would be pretty hard.

    Maybe you can do something to demonstrate what you mean, but we figured you were using the first joint, the second is beyond my ability.
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Yeah, I had a feeling the minute I saw the video that the difference in our hands would play a big factor. Well, one good AV sampling deserves another. Here are some shots I just took with my 700P. Note that I've tried this as well with McMillan stocks, so it's not just for this particular profile.

    This is me doing what I suppose you'd call the traditional or orthodox way- thumb in line as much as possible with the stock (can't get it entirely straight on a 700P), finger pad being very clearly used, effort on pulling straight back:

    img1738w.jpg



    Top shot. Bit of a difficult angle, but note the air between trigger finger and stock:

    img1743u.jpg



    Now, the new way I'm proposing, which I now employ:

    img1744d.jpg



    Same from a slightly more pronounced angle:

    img1745q.jpg



    Note the trigger is *almost* in the second joint. I've found across my shooting (pistol, AR, M1A, etc.) that this is where it naturally tends to sit.

    One last shot from the top:

    img1746d.jpg



    When going through this exercise (I also did some dry firing while I had her out
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    ), I remembered one of the main reasons I also switched to this method. I will admit that the canonical way could be honed to perfection, no doubt, once you remember all the components (thumb placement is key, definitely). But I found that with this method, you have a much more solid, close in grip on the rifle. Well, I do at least. It helps mitigate recoil, helps me keep my shoulder placement solid and consistent, all of which lead to more stability and consistency. Also, it could just be psychological, but it feels like the finger has much less work to do. Again, because of the fist analogy, it's like it's coming back to the other fingers, not out on it's own doing it's own thing. Alright, analyzed enough yet?
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    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    it looks like you would be prone to torquing the stock counter clockwise when engaging the the trigger to me, but if it works for you....
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Ya, I think you can keep that method to yourself, I see no practical reason anyone would try that and it would really only work for people with larger hands... on top of that, I would really question your long range abilities with it, especially with a different stock, so I can't see that translating to anything useful for anyone other than a few, maybe.

    Sorry, I'd have to agree with 9H on this one... that's just wrong no matter how you look it at...
     
    Re: Horizontal Dispersion

    Fair enough, but at least you were willing to give it a shot! 's pretty much all I was asking from the getgo.
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