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Horizontal Dispersion

Re: Horizontal Dispersion

With Jacob doing such a great job in the "Trigger School" video, I would like to hear his perspective on this since BB's method flies in the face of the side to side mechanical pressure that the video clearly discusses. Just a thought.
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

Obviously it works for him, but I would like to see his results at longer ranges and how well follow through works.
I am not inclined to go this route, because I think it trains to a lower level. Not a bust, just an opinion. There is more to proper trigger manipulation than just coming straight back.
The clockwise pressure on the trigger will lead to a significant muzzle hop shooting off of hard surfaces as well as significantly reducing the shooter's ability to see the result of the shot downrange, especially at closer ranges.
Personal accuracy has value, but if you cannot see what is going on before, during and after the shot, there is an issue.
Muzzle jump is an abnormal condition, it is caused by not being straight behind the gun, and not coming straight back on the trigger. Muzzle jump also limits my ability to effectively decide my next action.
This is a good discussion. Frank and I recorded good info. Like stated earlier, at 100, there was no real difference, that didn't hold true when we moved further out.
I am also well aware that Frank has outstanding abilities, and I believe that he was subconsciously doing things to negate the effects of the trigger torque. He would have done this without thinking about it, and couldn't help it.
I am not sure a new shooter would have that going for them, and I also think a less experienced shooter would see more dispersion than we did on frank's groups.

We gave this an honest eval, and it is close, but what couldn't be seen at 100, became evident at 300.
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

Also, another fair and balanced insight. Golly guys, what a swell buncha shooters we all are, eh?
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9H, maybe you and I will even raise a glass one day..

No, but seriously, everything you're mentioning is obviously valid and are things I've considered. As I keep shooting and shooting, I find I go round robin back through the fundamentals, touching on the latest "soft spot" or weak link. Basically the errors become smaller and smaller and so where once was a mole hill, now it becomes the next big mountain I need to focus on.

So I've become very aware of how I'm breaking as a result, and I really, truly watch for any displacement possible, both through the reticle and by watching the muzzle (during dry fire). Most telling, when I instruct new shooters in handgun, where I employ a very similar technique, I'll oftentimes lose round count or be using a rental gun I'm unfamiliar with, and when I pull on an empty chamber, it is as rock solid and stable as can be. And I know- there use to be an anticipation there.

Call it anatomy, call it what you will, but it just doesn't torque for me this way. If you try again, with an empty hand, what I describe in the diagrams, you'll see that the finger pad approach is not a straight back motion either- it's impossible for the joints to move straight back. Just visually looking at it I see as much torque if not more than what I'm describing. You might *think* my way has more torquing because of the curling motion, but again, do it with an empty hand and track that part of your finger visually. Anyway...

Here's the thing I've found regarding the fundamentals and round robin- the grip and technique I use not only keep me as steady as when I shoot the other way, it really, truly improves many of the other aspects- it reduces any anticipation because it gives a much more steady grip on the rifle. It reduces recoil for the same reason. It makes shoulder placement substantially better. So even if there is a minute difference in the two methods themselves, it provides me much larger wins across some wider fundamentals, and that's one of the reasons I'm seeing such an improvement in scores. In other words, when I mess up now, I'm very aware it's bad breathing, rushing, or I haven't done proper NPA- and I can usually call it so from a mile away. And when I *do* do my part, I'm always sub MOA @ 600, again, with a bone stock rig, factory ammo, and 10X. And my dispersion when I am off is almost never just in the horizontal. It's usually off in a way that reflects those other factors being off.

Last thing I'll say is to please also remember Lowlight wasn't able to employ the technique I'm advocating. Just moving to the first joint doesn't win you much and I can easily see it detracting - albeit slightly - from scores. Sort of a neither here nor there approach. Props to him for making the vid, no doubt! But to test my method the grip would have had to have been like in my photos, with use of the second joint or first joint-second joint area, etc. Shame, would have been interesting to see it and its affect on scores had it been an option.

But, no matter. By now, we're just getting more and more academic at this point. What should we all be doing? That's right, getting out and shooting more
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Re: Horizontal Dispersion

What discipline are you shooting when you mention your scores.

When you shoot like this and are shooting sub moa to 600 yards, does your sight picture return back to right on target after follow through for an immediate follow up shot, or do you have to reset your rifle for the next shot?
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

Slow fire. Usually F Class type matches.

To be honest, my follow through is fairly weak in general, and it's probably my next target, so to speak. If I find this technique hinders me in that respect, I'll probably refine again. We'll see.
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

BB,
I believe the main thing here, aside from what everyone is saying about it being fundamentally wrong, is that not everyone can apply this technique given different hand sizes and palm swell/grip areas on rifle stocks. I definitely could not apply this technique as I am in the same boat as Frank as far as hand size goes.

From a teaching perspective you need to try to teach, and perfect methods that can be standardized and used by the majority.

Your method may work well for you but not for the average person.
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

You mentioned a couple of time about training people in rifle and pistol. What kind of discipline is your training, bullseye, F-Class, self defense, precision rifle?

You say your follow through is fairly weak in general, and it's probably your next target. How and what do you teach your students about natural point of aim and follow through?
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

All,

It's not about this technique or that technique, it's about what gets the shooter SMOOTH, that's to say, build the position to get muscularly relaxed, and smooth will follow. Build the position to get another's notion for what looks like picture perfect and, with smooth not being the focus, trigger control may or may not be smooth.
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the grip and technique I use not only keep me as steady as when I shoot the other way, it really, truly improves many of the other aspects- it reduces any anticipation because <span style="font-weight: bold">it gives a much more steady grip on the rifle</span>. It reduces recoil for the same reason. It makes shoulder placement substantially better.</div></div>

That's a good point. I started out shooting pistol somewhat like this, for the same reasons, but the torque is too obvious on a pistol. And, more importantly, its a lot slower sticking your entire finger through the trigger guard. On a slow-paced precision rifle, it should be somewhat different, I think I'll give it a shot. Perhaps through focus you can negate the torque the same as with the fingertip method.

I hear you; the orthodox speaks for itself, but we should all try a bit of experimentation, one way or a another.
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

Every once in awhile I get a life-altering jolt, sometimes it means some of my options go missing, and I have to relearn my more common tasks.

I think my initial method of learning has complicated that. When I originally shifted gears from plinker to serious shooter, I was a long time getting in touch with good mentoring; so a lot of my grasshopper path took on an aspect of self/distance learning.

I got bad habits, broke them, relearned with only partial success, broke that too, and finally got into a satisfactory groove.

Well, when I have to do a 'do-over', my memory is clouded with ghosts of bad habits, and an accustomed degree of self reliance that can be seriously distracting from the right way of getting it done. Mild memory problems attributable to health and age aren't helping either.

I end up failing to take my own advice, and... my recollections of right ways can get clouded and generate mild indecision and self deception.

Right now, I am still on the uphill part of the curve following a serious health milestone from 2005/2006. It's been frustrating.

This thread helped me clear up the trigger issue, and did a reset on my mental picture of 'the right way'.

Thank you.

Greg
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

I have long fingers, maybe longer than anyone here - and while I can reach the second joint easily - it'll mess up your torque as Frank speculated - It does..

I use the tip of my finger, so I have slack in my finger - big deal....

Just cuz you have 8" doesn't mean I have to use it all LOL...

Stick to marksmanship basics when all else fails, you'll see your scores improve.
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

Always love to see a battle of the minds and the video was a huge help. Think I'm gonna stick with my finger tip but it's always nice to reread the why's behind techniques.
 
Re: Horizontal Dispersion

Trust me when I say that I don't have a dog in this fight. If I tought this way with some of the guys on my team we would have an AD (LOL). But I have to say that I saw 2 British Royal Marines shoot this way in Norway.

Little league will not let kids pitch side arm but some of the pros do.

Good luck with all this
Kevin