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Gunsmithing Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

Hellbender

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 23, 2008
1,558
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Lebanon, Missouri
Anyone use these methods to assure barrel concentricity?

Quote from "Secrets of the Houston Warehouse"

"Lapping compound was then smeared on the barrel threads, and by applying outward pull, the barrel was lapped into the action threads for full, positive contact. Virgil pointed out that if this procedure is not accomplished, only one thread or parts of one or several threads may be making contact. Anything less than full thread contact, he underscored, is destructive to finest accuracy.

During the lapping operation, great care was exercised to align the barrel straight with the receiver. Virgil used no mechanical means. He simply used his hands and a delicate degree of feel. He stressed that this step should be done with great moderation. A little lapping here goes a long way.

Part of the reason for lapping-in the barrel and receiver threads is to help center the barrel in the precise middle of the receiver. The superb precision gunsmiths who build benchrest rifles correctly cut the barrel threads slightly loose. While this serves several essential purposes, there is no guarantee that the barrel will center when its run up and tightened. Lapping helps eliminate this uncertainty.

Virgil confessed that lapping would not have been necessary on his rifle if he, Wilbur Cooper and seasoned shooter John Jones had not been tardy in developing an important innovation in the mating of the barrel to the receiver. Too late to benefit Virgil, the three jointly conceived the idea of undercutting a 45-degree slope on the inside edge of the receiver ring, leaving about two-thirds of the receiver shoulder untouched and square. Another 45-degree slope, cut farther inside the receiver (on a Cooper action), terminated at the locking lugs. With the barrel precisely cut to snug up against the two sloped areas, as well as the receiver shoulder, perfect barrel centering became absolute and positive."

Link to full article, it's a good read.....

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........



Gre-Tan Rifles uses a modified screw thread profile on the barrel threads known as Spiralock. It appears that this thread design would be self centering. Spiralock is a patented design that claims better stress distribution and self locking.

Google spiralock for more information.

Good shooting
Ron
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

Get a copy of Rifle Accuracy Facts by Vaughn. He discusses the issue of barrel/action joint stablization. Also, check out Varmit Al's site for barrel thread stress analysis. Threads are self-centering, don't see how laping would change that. Lapping could possibly help by having more threads in contact with each-other (see Varmit Al's). The best situation would be to have both the reciever and barrel threads cut on the same machine using the exact same cutting tool. That would help eliminate lead error of the machined threads. Yes, lathe cut threads aren't perfect. That's why we grind precision threads.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

Read that before, have a 308 with 21.75" barrel because of it. Wished it were 20". I don't think it helped it out much with a sammi chamber built for shooting in the dirt. The gun does shoot excellent.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

It seems to me we need to do away with threads altogether.

With the capabilities we have with CNC now, it seems the locking lugs could be machined integrally with the barrel.

This would do away with all the alignment problems.

Why are we sticking with turn of the (LAST!!!)century manufacturing techniques? All the bolt actions we are using today are based on 1890's designs.

Anyway...........
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are we sticking with turn of the (LAST!!!)century manufacturing techniques?</div></div>

Because it works...
grin.gif
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

and for the most part that desgine will out shoot any human who puts his dick beaters on it.

if it ain't broke don't mess with it !!

I have seen a Bat action , Kreiger barrel both threaded with conventional threads ligitimately shoot one hole groups dozens of times in a row , the weapon was locked down in a shooting vise and set off with a mechinical trigger to eliminate any human week links.
I can't see having any special threads or shoulders making it any more accurate when its shoulder fired
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

True, they do work, BUT.....

Those one hole guns also had many, many hours of precision work done by a craftsman.

And all those hours were spent FIXING the problems with our current action designs.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ300MAG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are we sticking with turn of the (LAST!!!)century manufacturing techniques?</div></div>

Because it works...
grin.gif
</div></div>

and it's an assload cheaper
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

" The best situation would be to have both the reciever and barrel threads cut on the same machine using the exact same cutting tool. That would help eliminate lead error of the machined threads. Yes, lathe cut threads aren't perfect. That's why we grind precision threads. [/quote]


Is it possible to cut the od and id threads with the same tool? And since it would be two totaly different set up would it eliminate much of anything? And if threads are self centering why wouldn't you have a bolt made and screw it in the action to indicate it when doing action work it would be alot easier to indicate. The lapping of the threads sound like a good deal but to get 100% thread engagement wouldn't the the od threads on the barrel have to be bigger than the ID threads in the action for them to lapp together and then you wouldn't be able to get them screwed together to start with or would this not just be taking more material out there for making it loser? The guys at the warehouse where accomplishing some pretty amazing things and I have thought about the 45% shoulder myself after reading this article a long time ago but they were in as a controled enviroment as a person could get. And also I can't shoot to the ability of most rifles I own but the science of it sure is cool.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

One might say the biggest problem with the 220 year old designs are the 3000+ year old designs that operate most of them.

I made the mistake of putting down my rifle one day and saying something to the effect of "gotta get a new @$%#$ rifle..." when a kind older gentleman asked if he could see what it would do.. being 18 I said "sure go for it..."

I found out later he was an old Marine .... and after my lesson in the definition of "Quiet Professionalism Defined" he straightened me out as to how to shoot an M-1 properly something I am thankful for to this day..

I am glad I didn't finish my thought of "if you can make it shoot its yours..." I think I might have lost more than a good rifle that day..

I always try to embrace new ideas and see how to incorporate them, I will be sure to read this article and bookmark it for future reference...

Thank You,
John

 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if threads are self centering why wouldn't you have a bolt made and screw it in the action to indicate it when doing action work it would be alot easier to indicate.</div></div>

The barrel threads will align themselves to the center of the action threads. That becomes an issue when the action threads aren't on the same plane as the bolt bore. That's why you indicate the bolt bore in and everything is machined concentric or and/square to that baseline.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The lapping of the threads sound like a good deal but to get 100% thread engagement wouldn't the the od threads on the barrel have to be bigger than the ID threads in the action for them to lapp together and then you wouldn't be able to get them screwed together to start with or would this not just be taking more material out there for making it loser? </div></div>

I believe the concept is to remove stock from the flanks of the first few threads that do all the work until threads further down the line also have contact on their mating surfaces. Lapping will increase the clearance but we're talking tenths (.0001") of an inch. Even with the additional clearance the threads will still center on the pitch diameter.

The whole idea of the spiral lock threads is that all the threads share the load and center up instead of the first few threads as on a conventional system.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

I guess i was understanding the article wrong I was thinking the lapping of the threads or putting the 45 on the face was to get the rifling to center up on the center of the action not the threads centering on themselves and also do you guys not use inserted tools to cut your threads? Does an Acme thread not sound more accurate for what we are looking for that is basicly what the Acme was designed for isn't it precision accuracy or a Buttress thread would handle more stress. From the animation it looks like there would be very little contact between the threads which would mean very little holding force or am i looking at that wrong I see what there Study on stress says but are they not trying to sale there technology. But either way would not work right if not cut right. A set of perfectly cut standard, spiralock, acme, buttress, stub acme, any thread would distribute the force equally and center on its self. But I thought the article was getting at the barrel centering up on the action like a acorn lug nut centering on the hole in a wheel.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

Threads are poor features to utilize in making sure that anything is concentric.

If that is such a concern, leaving the threads as tapped, with interference fit diameters ahead of and behind the thread (axially) is a much better layout....
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

AlterEgo that ain't a bad ideal you could have a boss ahead of the threads and then one after them before the shoulder with locating journals turned in the action with a couple .0001's slip fit to locate it all together.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

Skip the threads all togeather. Use a .005" press fit. Heat the action, freeze the barrel... install. Might be a little tough to disassemble.

Ever work with a Kelbly Panda action?
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

I may be out of line here, but I can't make myself believe that the mating surfaces of threads when putting the action and barrel together are going to have any effect on accuracy. While having an action that is way out of whack may effect accuracy how would removing .001 material from the threads and face of a relatively square action improve accuracy. In my mind, the only thing that matters is that the chamber and crown are as close to perfect as possible and the barrel isn't stressed by the stock. The action/barrel are either square enough or they aren't and I doubt any amount of improvement made on an action beyond "good enough" is going to net any results. That's my THEORY anyways, I wouldn't spend the money on building a custom rifle without having the action trued....
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

The Panda is an aluminum action with a steel sleeve installed into the front of the action. The sleeve contains the lug abatements and the barrel threads.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan27</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may be out of line here, but I can't make myself believe that the mating surfaces of threads when putting the action and barrel together are going to have any effect on accuracy. While having an action that is way out of whack may effect accuracy how would removing .001 material from the threads and face of a relatively square action improve accuracy. In my mind, the only thing that matters is that the chamber and crown are as close to perfect as possible and the barrel isn't stressed by the stock. The action/barrel are either square enough or they aren't and I doubt any amount of improvement made on an action beyond "good enough" is going to net any results. That's my THEORY anyways, I wouldn't spend the money on building a custom rifle without having the action trued.... </div></div>

I suspect it has to do with shot to shot grouping and the flex that occurs when firing. At rest without firing a shot, I too doubt it matters.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

Doesn't do any good when the scope is pointing in one direction and the muzzle in another. Vaughn proved it makes a difference, depends on what your willing to accept and your accuracy requirements. In Benchrest a few thousanths of an inch on target can be a group killer, not so much for other venues. The old YMMV comes into play.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems to me we need to do away with threads altogether.

With the capabilities we have with CNC now, it seems the locking lugs could be machined integrally with the barrel.

This would do away with all the alignment problems.

Why are we sticking with turn of the (LAST!!!)century manufacturing techniques? All the bolt actions we are using today are based on 1890's designs.

Anyway........... </div></div>

Isnt the Rem 710 actions done this way? chamber and bolt locking lug in the barrell steel, floating bolt head (to fix alignment issues) Then the reciever becomes a scope mount holder and mag feed alignment part, and trigger hanger?????
At worst case a AR10 style barrel stub containing the locking lugs setting the headspace, giving ready made off shelf barrel nut and FF handguard.
Heck use a AR10 barrel, bolt, then block the gas port, either use a straight pull bolt carrier operated by hand or pin the standard bolt into a bolt carrier with 15-20degree bolt lift, reciever only has to be Alunimum tube or even part of the stock panel carrier. only has to hold parts in line not stressed when firing.

 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: greybeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems to me we need to do away with threads altogether.

With the capabilities we have with CNC now, it seems the locking lugs could be machined integrally with the barrel.

This would do away with all the alignment problems.

Why are we sticking with turn of the (LAST!!!)century manufacturing techniques? All the bolt actions we are using today are based on 1890's designs.

Anyway........... </div></div>

Isnt the Rem 710 actions done this way? chamber and bolt locking lug in the barrell steel, floating bolt head (to fix alignment issues) Then the reciever becomes a scope mount holder and mag feed alignment part, and trigger hanger?????
At worst case a AR10 style barrel stub containing the locking lugs setting the headspace, giving ready made off shelf barrel nut and FF handguard.
Heck use a AR10 barrel, bolt, then block the gas port, either use a straight pull bolt carrier operated by hand or pin the standard bolt into a bolt carrier with 15-20degree bolt lift, reciever only has to be Alunimum tube or even part of the stock panel carrier. only has to hold parts in line not stressed when firing.

</div></div>

See the 202 and SHR-970 I mentioned above.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ300MAG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skip the threads all togeather. Use a .005" press fit. Heat the action, freeze the barrel... install. Might be a little tough to disassemble.

Ever work with a Kelbly Panda action?</div></div>

Sounds like a rem 710. Tough to rebarrel and upgrade at the smith and no one wants one. I have one. It shoots good for a factory gun and much cheaper than a 700. Want to buy it?
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

I have heard the stories from the warehouse from guys who were there. Unless you are shooting in a warehouse save your time and money and lapping compound. Waste your time and money at the range if you want your rifle to shoot better. The only place that the differences that lapping the threads would make, could only be noticed in a warehouse.
 
Re: Houston Warehouse Gun building comment........

Don't the Steyr rifles use a press fit barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I may be out of line here, but I can't make myself believe that the mating surfaces of threads when putting the action and barrel together are going to have any effect on accuracy.</div></div>

Uneven surfaces in the bolt face, bolt lugs, receiver lugs, receiver face, etc. lead to the uneven surfacesslamming together at ignition and that results in vibration that transmits to the barrel and effects accuracy.

ETA

I fond the following from Shooting Times in the November '03 issue:

"When a rifle is fired, thousands of pounds of chamber pressure are generated, placing the entire barrel and action under tremendous stress. If any of the parts are not perfectly aligned and abutted, disproportionate stress creates adverse harmonics throughout the firearm, tending to throw shots awry."

The author is more articulate than I.

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