How good is good enough?

T

tomcatfan

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 22, 2010
953
704
41
Southern MD.
#1
I just was wondering from you guys that have been reloading for a while, how good is good enough with load development. My Savage 10 fp will shoot between .25 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yds using Fiocchi Exacta Match 175 SMK ammo when I do my part. I bought a box of 175 smk's and have been trying to load up something to do the same. The best I've gotten with my hand loads are .48 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yds. Now I really havn't been chasing it for too long, but do you guys think I can replicate that load?

I know that this is kind of a loaded question, but I just don't want to keep chasing something that will never be reached. What are your thoughts?
 
#2
Re: How good is good enough?

Most people are going to say that 3 shot groups are insignificant and you should shoot 5-10 shot groups to REALLY figure out how a load shoots in your gun. If it were me, then I'm not happy until my gun shoots as good, or better than factory ammo. For my gun, it's about .5" at 100 5 shot groups.
 
#3
Re: How good is good enough?

I understand that 5 shot groups are better in determining accuracy over 3 shot groups basicly through more data per load. But can someone explain what a 5 shot group will tell you that a 3 shot group would not? I could reference some reliability/repeatability methods that say the minimum number is 22 data points. Why do people just go for 5, is there any logic behind it?
 
#4
Re: How good is good enough?

Well.... It depends on what you goal is for the rifle/load combo.

F-class demands the most accurate load you can devise, while ringing steel or practcal field comps demand less from the load per se and much more from the shooter.

As above, shoot longer strings. 3 shot groups are nothing but ego boosters most of the time.
 
#5
Re: How good is good enough?

This is a good point. The truth is I'm just going to be punching paper. But in people's experience, how many rounds does it take to develop an accurate load (in general) are we talking 50-100, 200-500, or thousands?
 
#6
Re: How good is good enough?

5 shots is fine. You should spend the money on .40 ammo instead so I can see if I like the tactical XD vs the standard. Also, I have about 100 .40 cases for you.
 
#7
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage 10fp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But in people's experience, how many rounds does it take to develop an accurate load (in general) are we talking 50-100, 200-500, or thousands? </div></div>

I think that's kind of like asking, "How long do I have to dig before I find gold?" Well, who knows? You could dig forever and not find it, or you might get lucky and find it right away.

I would say the rifle's true accuracy potential and what you're wanting to get are going to determine how long you have to work at it. If you're shooting a true tack-driver that isn't too picky about loads, then it probably won't take you long to find a reasonably accurate load. If you're shooting a rifle that just isn't a great shooter, you might chase loads until you're blue in the face and not get what you want. There's just too many variables there to even answer that question IMO.
 
#8
Re: How good is good enough?

Load development can be as easy or as complex as you make it.

This is a good start http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

Also, many people swear by the Audette method or ladder testing.

Check the stickys on the top of the page on reloading.

After telling you to shoot 5 shot groups it is a bit ironic that the OCW testing uses 3 shot groups though, the reasons for this are explained on the website.
 
#9
Re: How good is good enough?

Another thought,

You are shooting .308 Winchester. There are hundreds of bullet/powder/brass combos that just flat out work out of most peoples rifles. Do a search for the recipe you want and look for multiple posts that say "this x-load hammers". The work is already been done many times over.

I don't condone any posted load as a starting point, but looking for trends will get you very close.
 
#10
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: holdoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thought,

You are shooting .308 Winchester. There are hundreds of bullet/powder/brass combos that just flat out work out of most peoples rifles. Do a search for the recipe you want and look for multiple posts that say "this x-load hammers". The work is already been done many times over.

I don't condone any posted load as a starting point, but looking for trends will get you very close. </div></div>

Thanks for the input. I've done this to get where I'm at now. I guess it was kind of dumb to ask such a loaded question. I've really liked the .308 loads sticky as there is a great deal of information there. But I just haven't been able to replicate the Fiocchi shots as of yet.
 
#11
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lennyo3034</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5 shots is fine. You should spend the money on .40 ammo instead so I can see if I like the tactical XD vs the standard. Also, I have about 100 .40 cases for you. </div></div>

Well sir I do have over 200 rds of .40 ammo with over 250 bullets waiting to be loaded. I went out and shot my 1911 Sunday with much disappointment. The XD is much more accurate then the 1911. Thanks alot for collecting the brass though. Also if you want me to load for you (I know its a little dangerous) let me know. It will cut your handgun costs in half.
 
#12
Re: How good is good enough?

And on a side note. I'm not saying that it is right but by logic behind the 3 shot group is that 3 shots are the minimum needed to triangulate a group. We used 3 shot groups in the Airforce for sighting in and I have used them to sight in all my guns. That method seems to work.

In an effort to not waste all my components on load development, I have opted out to use the 3 shot group.
 
#13
Re: How good is good enough?

Some times there is just no way to improve over what a certain factory load may do in your particular rifle. I suppose I could find a factory load that would suffice for my guns but it is not the point of reloading. Reloading ensures that I have the right load every time. I know my processes and always follow them. It also gives me a sense of satisfaction when it's done right and you see those 1/2 MOA groups at 500 yards or more.
I recently gave up a load in one rifle that shoot 3/8 MOA for one that shoots 1/2 MOA with slightly less velocity. The reason was the 1/2 MOA load feed thru AICS mags without modification and the bullets for the 1/2 MOA load cost about 25% less.
As for 3 shot versus 5 shot groups at 100 yards, IMHO you can tell more about the load and the shooter when shooting 5 shot groups.
 
#14
Re: How good is good enough?

A good load, in my opinion has the following qualities...

- Is safe to shoot
- offers very little vertical spread at long distances
- offers a high level of accuracy and precision
- offers good brass life

Always put safety first.

Determine what your true distance will be in regards to how far you intend to shoot. If its not far at all then you dont need the most stellar load out there.

IMO, if your going for 600 yards and beyond, you need consistent muzzle velocity, minimal runout and seating depth sorted and not overly sensitive at the final measurement.
 
#16
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage 10fp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....when I do my part...

What are your thoughts?

</div></div>

How good is good enough? It's when you do your part. You answered your own question.
 
#17
Re: How good is good enough?

My thoughts on 3 rd groups...

When developing a load, a nice clover leaf 3 rd group is great. Shows the load has promise. The problem is when you have 2 touching and 1 rd a ways off. Was it me or the load? 5 rounds help you isolate those issues.
 
#19
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage 10fp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: holdoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thought,

You are shooting .308 Winchester. There are hundreds of bullet/powder/brass combos that just flat out work out of most peoples rifles. Do a search for the recipe you want and look for multiple posts that say "this x-load hammers". The work is already been done many times over.

I don't condone any posted load as a starting point, but looking for trends will get you very close. </div></div>

Thanks for the input. I've done this to get where I'm at now. I guess it was kind of dumb to ask such a loaded question. I've really liked the .308 loads sticky as there is a great deal of information there. But I just haven't been able to replicate the Fiocchi shots as of yet. </div></div>
I would start by not trying to replicate a load. I think that fogs the vision and objective you're trying to achieve. I have found that Federal Gold Medal Match shoots extremely well but the level of accuracy varies from lot to lot and that will always be the case with manufactured ammunition. I work for accuracy in the development stage and take whatever muzzle velocity I get and work from there. The point I'm making is work up your loads with a clear objective. I usually start with a bullet/powder combination and begin work there. Once I have a load "tuned" it is reliable and repeatable every time, not just from lot to lot.
 
#20
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage 10fp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just was wondering from you guys that have been reloading for a while, how good is good enough with load development. My Savage 10 fp will shoot between .25 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yds using Fiocchi Exacta Match 175 SMK ammo when I do my part. I bought a box of 175 smk's and have been trying to load up something to do the same. The best I've gotten with my hand loads are .48 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yds. Now I really havn't been chasing it for too long, but do you guys think I can replicate that load?



I know that this is kind of a loaded question, but I just don't want to keep chasing something that will never be reached. What are your thoughts?

</div></div>

For a champion the question is not how good is good enough, but what is possible. In competitive shooting, believing in the possibility for every bullet going into the hole vacated by its predecessor is what keeps those shooters ahead of others. They do not accept or stop at good enough but instead look at perfecting all aspects of their shooting for the reality of unmeasurable displacement between poa and poi.
 
#21
Re: How good is good enough?

The biggest problem with 3 round groups is the statistics.

The problem is a classic T-distribution (also known as Student's T). The number of shot have have increases the confidence.

For example, if you have 3 shots, +0.5",0,-0.5" from center (a "1MOA 3 shot group, std dev of 0.5), You can have only a 90% confidence the average point of impact (true point of impact or center of your group if you fired an infinite number of shots) of the group is +/- 0.85" from where it really is. Ie, you got "lucky" and all 3 rounds were high so you're true group size is going to be ~2MOA instead of one.

If instead you have 5 shots, 0.5, 0.25, 0, -0.25, -0.5 (a "1 MOA 5 shot group, std dev falls to 0.395 and degrees of freedom increase to 5) you're 90% confidence rises to 1.3MOA rifle. If you again increase it to 10 shot group following the same patern, you're 90% confidence level of the center of the group rises to +/-0.23" so you at least have some confidence in the center of the group.

The fact of the matter is most people overstate the accuracy of their rifles because they got one lucky good group. If you really want to know how well your rifle groups, put a bunch of shots down range. Most people's "1/2 MOA" rifle shouldn't have any trouble putting 20 shots inside an inch, should it? You'd be surprised how many "1/2 MOA" rifles will suddenly turn into 1 or 2 MOA rifles when asked to shoot that many shots.
 
#24
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good enough is good enough. I know it when I see it. </div></div>

Me too, but then I always say "what if" and I'm off experimenting again.

But I guess it's better than substance abuse and whoring...I guess.
frown.gif
 
#25
Re: How good is good enough?

I think 10 or 20 round groups are way overrated unless u are shooting at close range like 100 yards. If u are working on load development shoot 3 shot groups otherwise you are just wasting barrel life and powder. Your groups aren't gonna get any smaller than the first two shots. I was told by a very good 1000 yard bench rest shooter that
3 shot groups tell u the rifle can shoot and 5 shot groups tell u the shooter can shoot.

Unless u have wind flags and topnotch wind reading skills shooting 10 shot groups at any kind of distance (250 yards or more) will not provide u with anymore info than 3 shot groups.
The reason I say this is because my BR rifle will shoot in the .190 range @ 300 yards with perfect conditions and a very fast 5 round group. If I sat there and squeezed of 10 or 20 rounds at a slow pace and allowed conditions to change ever so slightly that could easily open my group up to .750. Now does that mean that my rifle is a 3/4 moa rifle I don't think so.

I think this whole 10 shot group thing is about egos more than pure rifle accuracy. Out of the hundreds of loads I have tested if it will group three really tight it will do five if I can steer it. Take as many variables out as possible for load development.
 
#26
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kalman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The biggest problem with 3 round groups is the statistics.

The problem is a classic T-distribution (also known as Student's T). The number of shot have have increases the confidence.

For example, if you have 3 shots, +0.5",0,-0.5" from center (a "1MOA 3 shot group, std dev of 0.5), You can have only a 90% confidence the average point of impact (true point of impact or center of your group if you fired an infinite number of shots) of the group is +/- 0.85" from where it really is. Ie, you got "lucky" and all 3 rounds were high so you're true group size is going to be ~2MOA instead of one.

If instead you have 5 shots, 0.5, 0.25, 0, -0.25, -0.5 (a "1 MOA 5 shot group, std dev falls to 0.395 and degrees of freedom increase to 5) you're 90% confidence rises to 1.3MOA rifle. If you again increase it to 10 shot group following the same patern, you're 90% confidence level of the center of the group rises to +/-0.23" so you at least have some confidence in the center of the group.

The fact of the matter is most people overstate the accuracy of their rifles because they got one lucky good group. If you really want to know how well your rifle groups, put a bunch of shots down range. Most people's "1/2 MOA" rifle shouldn't have any trouble putting 20 shots inside an inch, should it? You'd be surprised how many "1/2 MOA" rifles will suddenly turn into 1 or 2 MOA rifles when asked to shoot that many shots. </div></div>

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.
 
#27
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Me too, but then I always say "what if" and I'm off experimenting again.

But I guess it's better than substance abuse and whoring...I guess.
frown.gif
</div></div>

It's all about how you look at it.

Always remember that for some it's a hobby. For others it's a profession.

I like to play, but in the end it's more important that I stop maximizing loads and instead work on maximizing the shooter.

I could spend days turning necks, sorting brass and bullets and weighing each grain or powder.....but will that make more of a difference that an hour of dry fire each day?

When the accuracy really counts, it's going to be a factory rifle and factory ammo anyway.
 
#28
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Me too, but then I always say "what if" and I'm off experimenting again.

But I guess it's better than substance abuse and whoring...I guess.
frown.gif
</div></div>

It's all about how you look at it.

Always remember that for some it's a hobby. For others it's a profession.

I like to play, but in the end it's more important that I stop maximizing loads and instead work on maximizing the shooter.

I could spend days turning necks, sorting brass and bullets and weighing each grain or powder.....but will that make more of a difference that an hour of dry fire each day?

When the accuracy really counts, it's going to be a factory rifle and factory ammo anyway.</div></div>

I like your mind-set.
 
#29
Re: How good is good enough?

To answer you initial question of: How good is good enough?

I'll answer it how I answer it for myself....

( I'm assuming you have the fundamentals to deliver the shot consistantly )

Am I doing EVERYTHING I can to make sure each round is consistant as it can be? ( I stop before I start comparing bullets )

So.... I turn the necks, I anneal the brass, deburr the flashholes, set headspace at -.002 from a fireformed case... I do load development and, I achieve .25" 5 round groups from my rifle.

IMHO, until you take as many variables out as possible, you don't achieve shot to shot consistancy. Amost anyone can go out and make a 3 shot group look good but, you can't keep shooting the same target with the same results until you quit cutting corners.

It took me a while before I came to that conclusion and, it's a simple conclusion but, you'll save yourself some time and frustration if you just start believing that and start doing it.

All of that said, I don't spend a lot of time shooting groups at 100yds. That's not what I have my rifle for.

 
#30
Re: How good is good enough?

Factory loads have a purpose, and some of them do especially well.

I have tried duplication in the past, and generally found that original, basic load development, unrelated to any other load, achieves the best results. It boils down to whether I want to chase only one goal, the best <span style="font-style: italic">I</span> can do with the specific rifle; or whether I want to also add the goal of duplicating somebody else's work as well. Keep it simpler and prosper.

I will generally attempt to make an educated guess according to multiple load data sources, then bracket that load in increments of (for .308) about .3-.5gr, a pair of 5 round groups per increment, five increments max. I save a second round of increments for bracketing the most promising increment by smaller increments. If I did it right, it took only about 100 rounds max. If I manage .5 MOA on the first round, so be it; I'm already there.

My goal is simple, .5 MOA or better, whichever comes first. Getting more anal just costs bore life unnecessarily unless I'm a BR devotee; and in that case, I'm on the wrong site here.

Good shooting, especially LR shooting, is about the shooter. IMHO. Given the same equipment and ammo, one shooter will do better than the next. After a lifetime of shooting, I've concluded that once the rifle can achieve .5 MOA in the Short Range environment, it's good to go. As long as that's a given, upon which we can rely; the rest is mental and physical, and not mechanical.

The remainder of the excellence comes from the shooter's understanding of where the increments of accuracy and inaccuracy originate in their technique. If you concentrate on the inconsequential you waste enough of your concentration to ensure failure. There's a lot of things to consider, and narrowing down your concentration to the significant ones will render an impossible task into one that is worth attempting.

Let's be honest. For the average street inhabitant, hitting a 2 MOA target at 1000yd is an impossibility. Just once, and we are tasked to do it with regularity. The training, which must encompass thorough understanding of the how and the why, makes our difference.

Greg
 
#31
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's be honest. For the average street inhabitant, hitting a 2 MOA target at 1000yd is an impossibility. Just once, and we are tasked to do it with regularity. The training, which must encompass thorough understanding of the how and the why, makes our difference.

Greg </div></div>

That's a GREAT quote.

I agree and, that's why we all are here!!!!!! Love it!
 
#32
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The remainder of the excellence comes from the shooter's understanding of where the increments of accuracy and inaccuracy originate in their technique. If you concentrate on the inconsequential you waste enough of your concentration to ensure failure. There's a lot of things to consider, and narrowing down your concentration to the significant ones will render an impossible task into one that is worth attempting.

Greg </div></div>

Damn, Greg..... What another great quote.... so true.... you must be an old cuss ( I'm not a young cuss ).... I wish I could shoot with you sometime!
 
#35
Re: How good is good enough?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jeez; a <span style="font-style: italic">fan</span>!

I'm humbled... </div></div>

Well, Sir... You know something about shooting and, you have been doing it for a long time. You should be noticed for this fact.

Me too but, I will not do that here. I have nobody I need to impress. ( one old cuss to another )
smile.gif


Not saying that you're trying to impress either... I'm just a humble ol' shooter from my own time.

The best of the best are measured in 1/100 of an inch.... it's funny that most don't come even to the game. Ok... now I'm feeliing like my manhood is safe... LOLOLOLOL
wink.gif
 
#36
Re: How good is good enough?

In my opinion I find a round that is good ballistically out to 1 mile if possible. I then work up loads that are first safe but give me .5moa accuracy and then load them up and go to competition with them. I also want to try to find a powder that is temperature sensative because I don't want to have to worry about getting pressure signs in higher temps or it effecting my POI.

This is just my train of thought so find what works for you and run with it. I no longer care about 100 yard accuracy because I want it to perform at 1200yards.

Good luck,
Merritt
 
#37
Re: How good is good enough?

Yeah, I do try ever so hard to overcome my natural, if faint, resemblance to Jar Jar Binks...

And just for the record, I sometimes dabble with The Dark Side, too. Fun, actually...

When one reaches my age and degree of decrepitude, it becomes apparent that some of those goals I had hung my hat upon are just never gonna happen. What's funny is just how less disappointing that is than I had imagined it would be.

I see myself as having strayed into a pit, of walls made from age and infirmity. I can't do what once I could. That one stings. It would sting even more if I were to accept that as final. So I don't. I remain adamant that those walls can be surmounted.

As one amasses experience, it also becomes apparent that you can't take it with you. Now that's a problem; best solved by sharing. So I try.

Greg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
7 PRC Sticky Bolt
Replies
50
Views
975
Rocketmandb
Rocketmandb
M
Down the rabbit hole
Replies
6
Views
266
JB.IC
JB.IC
R
Looking for help reading my ocw test
Replies
10
Views
338
ubet
ubet
B
180 gr 300 win mag Bonstrike load
Replies
6
Views
260
D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷
D
SanPatHogger
Small pistol off brand primers
Replies
4
Views
294
SanPatHogger
SanPatHogger
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts