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Rifle Scopes How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

slm9s

slm9s

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 18, 2008
780
72
WA
#1
I'm mostly a short range BR guy who hunts elk also. Been thinking of getting into the longer range "tactical" game, found a place I'm able to shoot by myself out to 1000 if I want to. Mostly I'd like to become proficient out to 600.

I have a couple decent scopes (SIII, 6500, 4200, T36) but they're either duplex or target dot. I know many will suggest shoot what you have then decide, and I plan to do that. I'm just wondering how many of you actually use your reticle to mil things when shooting steel/whatever at reasonably long range, vs use your LRF and dial it up.
Thanks.
 
#2
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

I milled my elk (nice 5 point) this year because numbnuts me forgot my LRF.

Worked out fine, and I made a clean hit at 400 yards behind his shoulder, and again on the other side when he ran about 30 yards and stood still.

I did make the jump to FFP because I had trouble using the SFP scope in the wet/foggy conditions at max power--I had to mil and then do math to figure out the subtensions at about 1/2 power--WAY too many steps and I was lucky that I had some time because the elk was laying down.

The FFP scope will make things a little easier.
 
#3
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

LRF when I can as it's more accurate. Mil if I have to if LRF isn't handy or not allowed. Practice miling incase you can't use the LRF.
 
#7
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

Use LRF if possible. miling is a very important skill to have, but the best use for a scope w/MIL reticle is for hold-off... Also something you should try to learn for hunting.
 
#8
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slm9s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm mostly a short range BR guy who hunts elk also. Been thinking of getting into the longer range "tactical" game, found a place I'm able to shoot by myself out to 1000 if I want to. Mostly I'd like to become proficient out to 600.

I have a couple decent scopes (SIII, 6500, 4200, T36) but they're either duplex or target dot. I know many will suggest shoot what you have then decide, and I plan to do that. I'm just wondering how many of you actually use your reticle to mil things when shooting steel/whatever at reasonably long range, vs use your LRF and dial it up.
Thanks. </div></div>

Milling is allot harder than most would care to admit.I find it hard to distinguish less than .1 mil and also find it hard to hold the rifle still enough to line the reticle perfectly with target,That's even knowing the exact measurements of the target.Then the farther you are away from the target the more the trajectory is affected by drop so for me miling becomes extremely hard past a certain point.


For instance you mil a 20" steel at .6 mil (926Y) but make make a .1 mil error and it's actually .7 mil (793Y).The difference for that error is 133Y.A huge miss.
 
#9
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

I only mil during matches that require it. I don't mil for hunting live animals due to the variation in sizes. I just make sure I have my LRF. I suppose you could get good at using it for hunting, but I don't feel too comfortable in my size estimation skills, especially at long range.
Like mentioned above, I do use it quite extensively for windage hold offs.
 
#10
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

Once you decide that you enjoy the practical/tactical whatever you want to call t game then get a mil scope of some sorts and master ranging without the lrf. You may never have to use it in real life, but you know for a fact that your lrf wi crap out when you need it most. On that day you'll be happy you can effectively range with your reticle.
 
#13
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

The same way the shooters got the skill to hit the targets, practice.
 
#15
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

A responsible hunter should LRF instead of mil his target when it comes to live prey. But for practice and competition, milling is a great tool and fun.

Here in Sweden we compete in a challenge where only milling is allowed for range estimation, and we are only allowed 60 seconds for range estimation and adjustment of elevation, parallax, position etc. before firing commences. Normally we shoot 6 rounds in a time limit of 35 to 50 seconds. The targets are sized from aproximately 15 cm to 65 cm, and the distance is generally between 150 to 625 meters, as mentioned earlier, being able to determine range and wind is fundamental for a good score in these competitions.
 
#16
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

I've had about 90% success "mil-ranging" antelope to about 500ish while coyote hunting over the years using various reticles from simple plex to custom reticles.

This last year i "mil'd" 2 coyotes at close to 500 yds. using a 3 MOA dot reticle system and was close enough to true (lasered) range to have made the shots.

I was about 80% on prairie dogs to ~600 using a US Optics MOA reticle spotting scope this year.
 
#17
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The same way the shooters got the skill to hit the targets, practice. </div></div>


I will never discount practice but there has to be range at which the percentage of error in milling a target exceeds what you can accomplish by practicing alone.

Just a 2% error at 1000 yards means a .4mil error in elevation.
 
#18
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

as a shooter in a sniper team I almost always mil my tgt, it is a good back up if your lrf goes down or conditions aren't conducive for a laser. with a lot of practice and a reticle such as a horus subtended into .2 mil increments you can get pretty accurate. it also helps confirm that you and your spotter are on the same tgt.
 
#19
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will never discount practice but there has to be range at which the percentage of error in milling a target exceeds what you can accomplish by practicing alone.

Just a 2% error at 1000 yards means a .4mil error in elevation. </div></div>

Depends on size and color of target as well as conditions, but I would say you should be very confident out to 600m on a 1-meter sized target. Things get tough after that. I have practiced with a gps, putting target at known ranges from firing position then looking at how it read in the reticle under different conditions. I saw 0.1 to 0.2 Mil off from what ballistic CPU says it should be at different times of day and varying amounts of mirage. I was able to correctly guess the error under similar conditions after a bit of practice. I think this is a matter of not just being able to hold scope steady enough to Mil acurately, but also understand how other factors can add error into what you are reading at long range. I enjoy the challenge of Miling and am also too cheap to buy a LRF.
 
#20
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

If you know your target size exactly and can get to within .1 mil (that is +.05mil, -.05mil) at 500 meters you will be off your range -+ 25 meters. Acceptable perhaps.

With a 1 meter target, at 1000 meters you will be off -+ 50 meters. So much you will miss. Not acceptable.

So somewhere between 500 meters and 1000 meters things start breaking down. And that is if you have no error in your target size.

But it is better than nothing.
 
#21
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

My LRF is really only good to about 280 or 300 yds, so past that I get to mil. A bit of practice and its not so bad, the error for me is almost always a bad target size assumption, if I know the target for sure then its not too bad out to 700 yards, close enough to spot my hit and correct at least. First round hits? nope not for me unless its luck or I GPS it out.
 
#22
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

MIL reticle is not only useful for range estimating, it really shines when using holdovers, wind holds, or moving targets. If your spotter calls "Left one half Mil," hopefully you won't have a duplex reticle for that follow-up shot....
 
#25
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

I think the key to good milling is training your eye. When first training you need to know the exact range to the tgt. Then you know what it should mil.you get behind glass and make your object equal your mil. most mismilling is caused by improperly adjusted parallax. That is assuming you are using decent glass and a Horus reticle. With these tools you can consistently and accuratly mil 12" plates beyond 700 meters. with a mildot reticle? good luck. Probably not gonna happen.
 
#26
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

I practice miling, actually breaking down my reticle, at known distances using cardboard cut outs. It allows you to know the range and target size and the last part of the equation, the accurate mil reading, is what you work on. The P4F reticle also has the .2 mil marks in the outer left and right mil as well as the top. With those it makes it easier to break the mil down to .05 mils.

Practicing this way, even if you only have a 100 yard line, allows you to see where you are off in your reticle break down and break it down finer. So if you mil a target and the range is off in your calculations and you thought it was .7 mils for the size and it wasnt then go back and look at the reticle and see why it wasn't .7 mils. Maybe when looking you will see it's a little more or less. That .05 mils amount and that is where it helps you learn to break the mil down.

This wasn't directed at you JJ McQuade as I am sure you know plenty about miling but to others who might just be learning and want to try to get better at it.

Here's a couple of pictures of the targets I use that I have posted in the past. Cheap but effective. Also don't forget to practice miling the width of the target as well as height as sometimes you can't seethe whole height and width is all you have.
P1010045.jpg

P1010046-1.jpg

 
#27
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

Bet not many learned it the way i did--right out the front window of my old house. The road ran away from it to beyond 1000 yds. and had many signs of varied dimensions at varied ranges. So went out one day and established a bunch of "optical stds.", if u will, by measuring signs and lasering them back to my window. Learned the ~inversely proportional relationship of 2nd focal plane reticle subtension vs. magnification, and the fact that the mil-relation formula defines all reticle ranging from any multi-stadia reticle and turret as well as downrange zeroing right out that window.
 
#28
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

I use my laser all the time, but feel knowing the mil ranging formulas is kinda like the spare tire on my truck. There if I need it but no real plans to use it(for ranging. holdovers, wind holds and movers are a different story!)

Regardless of if you get/have a laser, get the mil-dot reticle. You're wanting to hunt. Wild animals rarely give you a shot for more than a few seconds and it's even more rare they stay still. What if you dial the wind into your scope for your long range game shot and about the time your ready to shoot the conditions change or wind STOPS? The animal is about to disappear into the thicket regardless of your woes. Are you gonna guess how to hold the duplex reticle to remove your dialed windage?

Get the dots and hold for winds with the reticle. You can adjust instantly to any change in conditions. Wind holds alone sells me on a mildot reticle, but I use it for all it's applications.

Plus you said your a BR shooter. I feel using my mil-d reticle in 1000 yards F-class (Belly Bench) put me WAY ahead of learning to dope & hold for wind. The mil scale reticle is basically a measuring tape of sorts in the scope's field of view. I'd hold into the wind @ 1000, guess the wind speed by feel on the skin and noting the wind flags (etc.) I'd take a look at my windage card, hold off and break the shot. The target goes down and comes back up with a spotter in the bullet hole. Now I have good information. I knew my exact mil hold. I know exactly where it hit. I then measure the error with the mil reticle and.... do this a few times and your ahead of the curve on learning what the wind REALLY was instead of what you thought it was.
 
#31
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

I learned to mil long before I bought a LRF. In fact, I mostly use the LRF to practice appearance-of-objects ranging skills since that is extremely difficult to do in itself. I still have not mastered it, but the LRF helps make me become fairly proficient if I keep at it. If you have to use the laser, use it to make a range card, and when a target appears use the range card to get your dope. This will help to avoid laser detection when the enemy is within range.

You don't even need a long range to learn milling. Even a 20 yard back yard will do. You can make images on a board and using a bit of math calculate at what range the image would appear in your scope. The images will be small, and precision in the measurements is the key. You could make one image for each hundred yard increment to practice milling through your scope. It's pretty easy to do with at a fixed magnification, but to be honest I'm not sure if it would work properly if you change magnification, but I don't see offhand why it wouldn't.
 
#33
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Storm Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MIL reticle is not only useful for range estimating, it really shines when using holdovers, wind holds, or moving targets. <span style="font-weight: bold">If your spotter calls "Left one half Mil</span>," hopefully you won't have a duplex reticle for that follow-up shot.... </div></div>

Wishin' mine had
wink.gif


Practice mil'ing for when you need to range wise. Knowing how to do things more than one way is imperative.

My reticles, as many pointed out, are used primarily for holds when shooting and the LRF is for range.
 
#35
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

In the early days I learned to estimate distance with a duplex reticule because that's what we were using. When Mil-dots arrived it became easier, much easier. Using it every day (which equates to "practice") all of us became proficient and like multiplication tables soon it's just knowledge in your head. As the years went by and up to today when I scope anything the mil measurement and approximate distance is just realized without a lot of thought.

So your answer is...you want to use it and get good...practice, allot!
 
#36
Re: How many actually mil things vs use LRF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The same way the shooters got the skill to hit the targets, practice. </div></div>


Amen!
 
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