By that i mean I reload to the tenth.how many of you relaod using a trickler to get it to the kernel. I shoot steel so a hit is a hit granted I want to hit the same each time but hard to justify spending that kind of time or money for just steel. So question is those that are using a trickler to the kernel what do yo shoot at? Stan
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I've been know to fish around to get the right sized kernel of Varget out of a pan... I dont consider myself "anal" rather I view myself as a "load enthusiast". 
No comps for me as this is a relaxation from the day job. I shoot mostly steel once I get the load figured out.
No comps for me as this is a relaxation from the day job. I shoot mostly steel once I get the load figured out.
I weigh Varget to +/- 0.02gr (kernel) using a GemPro250. I'm pretty quick at it, can weigh out powder and seat bullets on 100 cases in under 1 hour.
For the last year or so that's been practice ammo or match ammo, I make it all the same. Since getting a Dillon 550 I'm moving toward just progressive press thrown charges for practice ammo and will weigh the match ammo charges with the GemPro.
This is all for PRS competition, practice or matches it's pretty much all steel.
For the last year or so that's been practice ammo or match ammo, I make it all the same. Since getting a Dillon 550 I'm moving toward just progressive press thrown charges for practice ammo and will weigh the match ammo charges with the GemPro.
This is all for PRS competition, practice or matches it's pretty much all steel.
I'm one of those guys that uses a RCBS Chargemaster to throw charges then puts it on a balance scale to trickle up to 0.1. I plan to load a bunch directly from the chargemaster but I'm too anal to let that uncertainty creep in. My life would be much better if I found the chargemaster rounds to be as consistent.
80% of the time I shoot paper for groups out to 300. I'll shoot steel out to 700 about 20% of the time...the more I think about it the more I think I need to stop trickling.
80% of the time I shoot paper for groups out to 300. I'll shoot steel out to 700 about 20% of the time...the more I think about it the more I think I need to stop trickling.
I load each round +\- .02 grains to the best of my ability. Reason being is that it's a factor I CAN control.
Things I can't control:
primers
internal volume (meaning can't make them all have the same volume)
bullet profile (differences in Ogive, meplat, weight, etc).
inside neck tension from friction (differences in residual carbon, etc).
atmospherics
so why not go the extra mile to control the variables you can control?
when I start getting lazy, I tell myself I can still control it.
Things I can't control:
primers
internal volume (meaning can't make them all have the same volume)
bullet profile (differences in Ogive, meplat, weight, etc).
inside neck tension from friction (differences in residual carbon, etc).
atmospherics
so why not go the extra mile to control the variables you can control?
when I start getting lazy, I tell myself I can still control it.
1) let the chargemaster throw it
2) if it reads right, dump it in the case
3) if its over, scoop a few kernels out til it reads right, then dump it
4) crush souls of the anal crowd
5) profit
2) if it reads right, dump it in the case
3) if its over, scoop a few kernels out til it reads right, then dump it
4) crush souls of the anal crowd
5) profit
hahaha...and that is exactly the way I do it! ain't got no time for that finicky shit, just load and shoot.
lol yup, lots of practical/field match/hunting shooters would benefit from more time on the gun and less time on the press...
I'll check each individual charge on load development, once the load is figured out I'll lock on the measure an hammer down on the charges depending on caliber for single stage. If its loaded on progressive I'll get it set an check every 50 or so for rifle less for pistol.
I think having a good scale goes a long way in showing accurate and consistent measurements. I use a tuned Lyman beam scale that shows the difference between a large kernel like retumbo,medium sized like H4895 and small kernels of ball powder. So I can choose how anal I want to be at that time.
For plinking with 223 using cheap bullets, I throw directly into the case because ball powder meters well and I'm not looking for nats ass accuracy or worried about temp sensitivity.
For rifles that are stock or moa rifles I throw into the pan then go instinctive with how much powder I pinch and get within a 10th or so. It goes fast. I don't use a trickler anymore and haven't for years, doing so is faster than trickling and going over is rare.
For the precision rifles I'm all out to the kernel or much less than a 10th. Pinch and roll in between the fingers and/or grab a few more if need be. Once you get the feel and cadence it's pretty fast. After a few times I can tell how many granules I'll need so I don't need to wait for the beam to stop which saves time.
For plinking with 223 using cheap bullets, I throw directly into the case because ball powder meters well and I'm not looking for nats ass accuracy or worried about temp sensitivity.
For rifles that are stock or moa rifles I throw into the pan then go instinctive with how much powder I pinch and get within a 10th or so. It goes fast. I don't use a trickler anymore and haven't for years, doing so is faster than trickling and going over is rare.
For the precision rifles I'm all out to the kernel or much less than a 10th. Pinch and roll in between the fingers and/or grab a few more if need be. Once you get the feel and cadence it's pretty fast. After a few times I can tell how many granules I'll need so I don't need to wait for the beam to stop which saves time.
Only problem comes when the guys who are anal about powder are also anal about practice and trigger time. Lots of prometheus throwers and $1k digital scales with autotricklers in the reloading rooms of the top 10 PRS shooters.
Throwing powder accurately sure as hell won't make you win. But if you're committed to winning, why give up an edge to anyone in any area?
Besides... the only time you should be reloading is when it's dark out and you can't go shoot.
You just explained why its not worth dropping the coin for more precise tools for you. Once you get to the point that you can see the tangible benefit of them you will be able to justify it easily. Its all about value. And what you value isnt accuracy to the hundredth of a grain.
Just like me, I cant justify spending more on a scale than a charge master but I could justify the charge master over my old beam scale because it was just as accurate for my uses but eliminated the dedicated step of weighing powder. Now its there waiting for me after I finish seating the prior bullet.
I can justify the expense of a giraud because it basically eliminated 95% of my time spent prepping brass when compared to my bare bones minimum investment for hand tools.
I dont do the adding and subtracting kernals. If the charge master says it over/under threw then I dump it back in the hopper and let it give me a charge it believes to be correct the first time.
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Only problem comes when the guys who are anal about powder are also anal about practice and trigger time. Lots of prometheus throwers and $1k digital scales with autotricklers in the reloading rooms of the top 10 PRS shooters.
Throwing powder accurately sure as hell won't make you win. But if you're committed to winning, why give up an edge to anyone in any area?
Besides... the only time you should be reloading is when it's dark out and you can't go shoot.
no issue keeping single digit SDs for 10 rnds in any of my calibers using 2 chargemasters...if the targets start getting sub moa past 1k yds...then maybe ill worry about it
i cant think of a single target i missed last year due to my ammo, they arent small enough to matter 99% of the time...lots of misses left and right...very few up and down...im not big on makin excuses for my misses tho
same here. i'll get all that fancy stuff when they sponsor me and i can get a hot little brunette to poor the powder into all my cases for me. sorry for the day dream moment.
I use my chargemaster, get it to the nearest tenth. Im about to start annealing. My 6.5x47 with the right load when i do my part shoots like a lazer.
and thats with hornady 140 eld, no sorting or anything. Cci SRM andH4350 40.4gr.
ive noticed neck tension kills me more than the extra kernal of powder. Im looking into a very expensive but very precise annealer.
and thats with hornady 140 eld, no sorting or anything. Cci SRM andH4350 40.4gr.
ive noticed neck tension kills me more than the extra kernal of powder. Im looking into a very expensive but very precise annealer.
i use a charge master then trickle up on a Scott Parker tuned redding beam scale . you cant beat a Parker tuned scale.
I power up my charge master about 20 minutes before dropping charges. The 120 volt circuit that my charge master runs off of has very little load on it otherwise which practically eliminates any scale drifting during use. For those with a charge master that drifts, try powering it through a UPS to see if you get better stability.
If my charge master scale is at my desired weight to the tenth, then that drop goes in the case. For the random .1 gr over, it gets dumped back in the hopper and I start a fresh drop. I only load into the same 100 count lot of Lapua brass over and over until the primer pockets are too loose. I ultrasonic clean my brass and anneal the necks/shoulders every firing. I don't do any weight sorting at all. My SDs are single digits with IMR-4064 and 175-178 class bullets. I shoot steel and a little F-class. My vertical variance window at 800 yards is usually no more than 4-5 inches total if I do my part.
If my charge master scale is at my desired weight to the tenth, then that drop goes in the case. For the random .1 gr over, it gets dumped back in the hopper and I start a fresh drop. I only load into the same 100 count lot of Lapua brass over and over until the primer pockets are too loose. I ultrasonic clean my brass and anneal the necks/shoulders every firing. I don't do any weight sorting at all. My SDs are single digits with IMR-4064 and 175-178 class bullets. I shoot steel and a little F-class. My vertical variance window at 800 yards is usually no more than 4-5 inches total if I do my part.
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I turn my two scales on the night before to let them even out. Morning, zero both. Through charge on charge master set 1 grain low. Transfer to secondary scale to fine tune. I wouldn't call it being anal. Thorough at best.
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I weigh to the tenth. Drop close on the electric charger and then trickle up for as much accuracy as possible. However after reading this fucking post I may rethink that in the near future.
i think many are among me. I feel that shooting is more of a mind relief from the stresses of the day. I know that when i go and shoot I am in full on one thought and that is shoot! Same in the loading room. It gets me away from the worries of the day. Don't get me wrong I feel that I must hit the target in the same spot each time but I do not weigh the cases or get that last kernel to tip the scale to the ninth grain. Shooting is more of a relaxing time for me. and I don't sweat a miss just try harder and figure out why I missed. STan
Good ES & SD numbers are a result of the charge being in a pressure range your barreled action likes. You can't force feed those numbers with a scale that reads .02gr. Pay more attention to holding vertical downrange and you will see a window of charge ranges that do hold, pick mid pack of this and Chargemaster is all you will ever need.
All the charges I shoot are well below 10FPS in ES and SD measured in a crappy CM1500. I even had a .308 load that shot 1FPS on several different occasions through the chrono. Even if it goes over by .1 of a grain, I still dump it and shoot it. Has anyone ever looked on how many kernals .1 of a grain is? It's nothing compared to the overall charge. So many other factors involved in getting low SD and ES then just the charge weight.
I actually bought the auto trickler # 64, and fx120i, found no use for it. The scale was awesome, but after checking my CM's against it, and how I develop a load, it was not warranted, I should've just sold the trickler and kept the scale, it was that good, it is nice to have a decent scale.
I throw the charge a tenth or 2 light then trickle to -0.00 / +.020 grains (roughly the weight of one granule of extruded powder) with an A&D FX-i milligram balance.
Chargemaster makes good shooting ammo.
My misses are more related to the back of the rifle than the chamber.
R
My misses are more related to the back of the rifle than the chamber.
R
I use to be anal, I'd throw a little under then trickle up. I don't anymore, I worked with Dan Newberry using his ocw method on a few loads and found that when you find the optimum load using his method you can be off .1 or so hi or low and it really doesn't make any difference. Plus I came to the conclusion that I'm more interested in tactical type shooting rather then a bench rest guy.
i agree with cody s. i use my chargemaster ,dump it back in if ifs not right. neck tension is going to cause more inconsistentsy than a grain or two. and i just ordered an AMP
THIS^^ is exactly why i dont worry about 0.1 gr...ive tested batches of 10 rnds after finding my optimal charge where i threw 10 charges 0.1 low and 10, 0.1 high on purpose...and in 223 it changed the avg velocity ~9 fps per 0.1, and in cases with similar to 308 case capacity it changed the avg velocity ~7 fps per 0.1...wasnt enough to warrant any of my time, for others...maybe it is
I WAS using my Chargemaster to throw to the nearest 10th with some pretty good SDs in the single digits. Then, it took a crapper and started throwing way off. I've been using it to throw a low charge and then hand trickling on my Gempro250 and getting them to within .02gr. The Chargemaster is about to head back to RCBS for warranty service but my confidence is shaken. When I get it back I'll check it against the Gempro but I may just stay with double weighing every charge and keeping it within that .02gr deviation. It was a PITA at first but I've gotten used to it out of necessity, so why not use it?
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Accuracy and consistency. Might as well try for both the best you can
I like this philosophy. Maybe I'm the only one - but I load everything, including precision rifle, on my LNL AP. That includes throwing powder with the Hornady powder measure. It holds .1 grain consistency, and since I started annealing I have no issues keeping single digit SDs.
I know the LNL doesn't get a ton of love from the precision rifle crowd - but I'm very satisfied with it.
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You must be dropping ball powder for those +/- .1 gr drops. I have an LNL that I tried dropping Varget and IMR-4064 from and usually ended up +/- .8 of a grain off desired.
My LNL powder measure with the pistol rotor loading for 9mm and 45 drops fine grain powder like Titegroup very consistently, though. I only use my LNL for pistol. It does a mighty fine job at that with no surprises.
Being that the LNL is an aluminum frame press, I was obviously making it flex too much for .308 loading due to the runout and OAL variations I saw from it. For precision rifle .25 MOA loads, its nothing but a single stage cast iron frame press for me.
I reload to the tenth. There will be more shooter/wind error than that +/- kernel of powder. Shooting shouldnt feel like a job.
Does Hornady go to such extreme measures for their factory loads? If they did, it sure as hell wouldnt be $25 a box. And look at how many people have success using their ammo.
Does Hornady go to such extreme measures for their factory loads? If they did, it sure as hell wouldnt be $25 a box. And look at how many people have success using their ammo.
I have a fancy scale (FX-120i), a Harrels thrower, and a Hornady case activated thrower. What I'm loading for, the time pressure I'm under, and what powder I'm using will determine what system I use. Load development typically gets weighed to the kernel. Match loads depend on the hurry I'm in, but between +/- 2 to 5 kernels (.04 to .1 gr). Play loads of stick powder get thrown through the Harrel's, play loads of ball powder I'll use the case activated powder drop.
I have slowly shifted to doing all my loading on my progressive Hornady. Unlike gigamortis, I have seen remarkably consistent OAL and runout numbers. My runout is typically at or under .002", which is plenty good for me. My OAL (I measure base to ojive) is typically +/- .001". The exception to this is if you're running full progressive (sizing and seating in the same run vs doing two separate cycles) the last few rounds that are seated when nothing is being sized are off by .005". I handle this by either marking those few or using some spare cases to run through the sizer.
I have made my share of tweaks to the Hornady press to make it run reliably for me. At this point I can't imagine going back to single stage loading. If it for some reason stopped getting the job done for me I'd buy a Dillon and get it dialed in for precision work.
I got the fancy scale a while back. If I didn't already have it, today I'd just get a chargemaster and not worry about the small amount of resolution I was losing.
At some point I need to get a few more things optimized and do some loading on the clock. It's got to be getting pretty fast as far as precision setups go.
I have slowly shifted to doing all my loading on my progressive Hornady. Unlike gigamortis, I have seen remarkably consistent OAL and runout numbers. My runout is typically at or under .002", which is plenty good for me. My OAL (I measure base to ojive) is typically +/- .001". The exception to this is if you're running full progressive (sizing and seating in the same run vs doing two separate cycles) the last few rounds that are seated when nothing is being sized are off by .005". I handle this by either marking those few or using some spare cases to run through the sizer.
I have made my share of tweaks to the Hornady press to make it run reliably for me. At this point I can't imagine going back to single stage loading. If it for some reason stopped getting the job done for me I'd buy a Dillon and get it dialed in for precision work.
I got the fancy scale a while back. If I didn't already have it, today I'd just get a chargemaster and not worry about the small amount of resolution I was losing.
At some point I need to get a few more things optimized and do some loading on the clock. It's got to be getting pretty fast as far as precision setups go.
My primary use is field practical and prs style steel matches. I also hunt big game at middling range and varmints at long range. Rock chucks at 1000+ yards ask way more out of my loads than steel matches ever do.
To me shooting is about confidence. If I'm confident in my rifle, my ammunition and I practice then I generally shoot well. When I start missing then I start to wonder if it's me, my ammo or the rifle. Like another poster said, I control the things I can by loading as accurately as possible.
When my 308 gets back from the salon I am gonna try the throw and go method some many seem to employ. Since its a new rifle so to speak and no load development prior I am curious to see what results I can get out of it.
Depends on the type of shooting I'm doing and if I'm close to max charge. If I'm trying to get the smallest groups possible I trickle every load to the kernel. If I'm banging steel with a moderate load then I let the charge master run!
I know several years back when I was involved in BR shooting there were a lot of shooters (successful ones) that volume dropped their powder. I found it funny that they would weigh bullets and cases but not powder charges. I don't know if that's still common practice or not.
