- Thread starter mram10
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I used to for a little over a year. Found it to be a pain for no better results than an open flame.
How did you test to verify “better results”? Were you using neck color or tension measurements? Thanks
Maybe measuring springback after sizing
By feel or with something else? Did you have the salt level high enough? I’ve had very good luck that is why I’m curious
Well, when I have to anneal, I usually have seen some spring back after I resize brass. I use lee collet die, so I'll measure the neck and see that it's not holding its neck size.
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ill rephrase, the hassle of it didn’t yield measurably better results. No matter how I anneal I can keep sub 5sd’s over 10shot strings in 6bra 6/6.5creed and 308. Between splashes of 1000 degree liquid (drops really), having to wait on the salt to heat/reheat, and the painfully slow awkward process of having to handle each case, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. The only benefit I saw was that it is cheaper in actual start up cost but intern is the most expensive method when you factor in time. It’s just not for me
Interesting. It is much more accurate than torch annealing based on temps of the salt v torch. Sure is easy to overheat brass with a 3k+ degree flame. It takes me 15minutes to heat the pot while I’m prepping the brass and less than 15 minutes to anneal 100 rounds of rum. It does take about a spoon full of salt every 50rounds. It doesn’t splash at all with the plates. Water doesn’t mix well with torch annealing either 
Conversely you can build your own induction annealer. There are a few threads on it here in the forum. It's interesting for sure. I'm looking into doing it instead of torch method. I don't particularly like torch or salt bath really. I'm looking for the easiest way to do it in the shirtes amount of time. So that's why I'm going to build an induction unit.
really Like to see how it turns out. I looked into one of those years back that they use in auto shops to loosen bolts.
This is the one I saw recently. Going to pilfer the idea for mine. It's not overly complex, and it's not automated. But it seems pretty easy to do and they arent dealing with an open flame or blazing hot salt. My bench area is rather small due to the fact that my garage is small. And I have small kids that sneak into the area when I'm not looking. So this method seems preferable to me
www.snipershide.com
Homemade Induction Annealer
Over the last couple of days I put together an induction annealer setup. All components minus the coil were sourced from Amazon. I turned the coil myself from solid copper wire to ensure proper inductance and distance to the case. The power supply is 24V/15A. Switching frequency of the...
www.snipershide.com I think that is a case of being more accurate vs the potential to be more accurate. It’s known that the pot fluctuates in temp. And the temp of the quench water. The actual time it takes you as a human to move and complete the tasks of moving handling each case. The amount of salt in the pot is always changing. Now I think it would be a perfect system if we could regulate all of those factors. with a flame type machine like guirad and annealeaze. You can do 150-200 cases before your pot heats upInteresting. It is much more accurate than torch annealing based on temps of the salt v torch. Sure is easy to overheat brass with a 3k+ degree flame. It takes me 15minutes to heat the pot while I’m prepping the brass and less than 15 minutes to anneal 100 rounds of rum. It does take about a spoon full of salt every 50rounds. It doesn’t splash at all with the plates. Water doesn’t mix well with torch annealing either
I really would be interested in this too.
Pot temp fluctuations of even 30deg C are of no concern to the brass since the salt is matching the anneal temp. Compare that to a 3k deg F flame.
Quenching is not required for annealing brass according to metallurgy tables
Time of quench, +/- 3 seconds, because of the salt temp is also not a concern. Flame, definitely a large concern
The amount of salt will change, but adding a spoon full every 50 rounds, based on cartridge size, is easy. The brass shows you when you need to add.
I own no stock in SBA
I started out cooking the crap out of necks with a plumber torch, pan with water, drill and a dark laundry room Brass sure looked correct, but it wasn’t To be fair, it is very difficult to properly gauge color on pictures on the internet and in any condition other than pitch black. Heat treatment and/or annealing really needs to be done with something that can accurately gauge temperature. At this point, the best cost effective solution for most of our purposes is tempilaq,
Only on the Hide can one have a yes/no poll, total the percentages of each, and get >100%. Rock on!
That's cuz here we give 110% son
Didn't vote yet. I picked up 3 containers of the salt, but haven't had a chance to use them yet. I appreciate the info given here in these threads, as I'm doing what I can to alleviate as much of it/them as I can.
There's not a hope in hell that I could afford the induction system, at all. So I'm going to make-do the best I can with what I've got to work with here.
By all means, keep on bringing the issues up. I like how the PID controllers work, as we put one in our cerakote oven. I've a few spare Lyman lead melter pots, and will be using one of those for this.
There's not a hope in hell that I could afford the induction system, at all. So I'm going to make-do the best I can with what I've got to work with here.
By all means, keep on bringing the issues up. I like how the PID controllers work, as we put one in our cerakote oven. I've a few spare Lyman lead melter pots, and will be using one of those for this.
Well, I'll just leave this here.
www.ampannealing.com
It could be argued that NO ONE is salt bath annealing...
Full disclosure- I'm not set up to anneal via any method, and don't have plans to start.
Salt Bath Annealing - Does It Work? | Learn More | AMP
View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.
www.ampannealing.com It could be argued that NO ONE is salt bath annealing...
Full disclosure- I'm not set up to anneal via any method, and don't have plans to start.
I think its funny reading salt bath is more accurate than a torch, when I have also read an article that said salt bath doesn't work. Lets not state our opinions as facts. If you like it better fine. You have no proof or basis to say salt bath is more accurate than torch annealing. If you do, please post the evidence.
the above table is an annealing table. It lists 425-700c for the proper temp to anneal ammo brass. SBA is usually done at 500c for 5-8 seconds which is plenty to go thru .015” neck thickness, thus annealing it.
The AMP article has been debunked many times on other forums. Annealing is not that complex. Get it to a specific temp and it does the rest. Feel free to google the amp article dunked and see both sides.
I understood your opinion on salt bath the first time you stated it. My personal opinion is that salt bath annealers are probably wasting their time. I base that opinion on the research of a company that builds machines for annealing rifle brass. As well as research into the process of annealing brass, I.E the time temp relationship, and I don't think your salt gets hot enough.
I googled Amp salt bath annealing article debunked and nothing came up. Feel free to post a link to the research.
That chart doesn't show the time vs temp relationship of annealing. Here let me help you out, so you can stop wasting your time.
Brass will take 1 hour to anneal at 600F. Can you leave your brass in your salt bath for an hour?
How long does it take to anneal at 500c?I understood your opinion on salt bath the first time you stated it. My personal opinion is that salt bath annealers are probably wasting their time. I base that opinion on the research of a company that builds machines for annealing rifle brass. As well as research into the process of annealing brass, I.E the time temp relationship, and I don't think your salt gets hot enough.
I googled Amp salt bath annealing article debunked and nothing came up. Feel free to post a link to the research.
That chart doesn't show the time vs temp relationship of annealing. Here let me help you out, so you can stop wasting your time.
Brass will take 1 hour to anneal at 600F. Can you leave your brass in your salt bath for an hour?
Here’s a good start. Don’t want to “waste my time”
How long does it take to anneal at 500c?
Here’s a good start. Don’t want to “waste my time”
Another forum full of people making anecdotal claims. I am totally convinced now. Want a link to some flat earth forum discussion, thus proving we live on a floating potato chip?
Seriously though, I don't know why it wouldn't work. If you can maintain 500c it should only take a couple seconds to anneal. The caveat here is that people have been reloading for years, before the home reloader annealing craze started. So to claim that we are "happy with our process", or "it works for us" is fine. To make a claim it is more accurate than method A,B, or C we need evidence, or we are just blowing hot air. Even worse we may convince others or even ourselves our opinions are facts.
I couldn't care less if salt bath works or not. So please understand I am not here to debate with you. I wanted evidence of your claim salt bath is more accurate than torch annealing.
For me salt bath is just too slow.
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If you were trying to cook a steak, without burning the outside, what temp would give more accurate results? A lower heat or a higher heat?
It is proven mathematically that brass needs 500c heat for 5-8 seconds on normal neck thicknesses (~.015”) to be properly annealed. It’s that easy. Do what you want, but don’t say SBA doesn’t work when the science is proven along with the method.
Many people using a 3k degree torch overheat the brass because it is too hard to be consistent at that temperature. The lower temps of SBA are much more forgiving. It is easy to ruin your cases by the torch method if your timing isn’t exact
It is proven mathematically that brass needs 500c heat for 5-8 seconds on normal neck thicknesses (~.015”) to be properly annealed. It’s that easy. Do what you want, but don’t say SBA doesn’t work when the science is proven along with the method.
Many people using a 3k degree torch overheat the brass because it is too hard to be consistent at that temperature. The lower temps of SBA are much more forgiving. It is easy to ruin your cases by the torch method if your timing isn’t exact
The only actual science Ive seen on the subject is the amp article. No one else has hardness tested shit to see what it does in the way we reloaders use it. And the amp article doesnt say it doesnt work at all, the article says it doesnt work up to their standards.
And color of the brass is just as dependent on the cleanliness of the brass as anything.
I have spelled it out in basic terms of time and temperature based on metallurgy tables. It really is that simple. AMP is obviously biased because SBA would take a huge part of their market share especially when someone comes out with a pid controller kit. I just did another 100 300rum brass last night and have done well over 1500 rounds of large caliber stuff. It works. You should try it to see for yourself, if you are interested in annealing. Also, check out the accurateshooter posts I linked. A lot of good info
So basically, this was just a “I want to tell people why my way works” thread.
Certainly appears that way. These threads always turn out the same.
I still use a flame and fingers. Looking for least expensive way to take it to the next level. Leaning towards home made induction.
Home-made induction is probably the best bang for your buck. I do SBA, and I've seen the benefits of annealing (increased brass life, less shoulder springback, more consistent neck tension, lower ES/SD, etc.), so I don't completely agree with the conclusions reached in AMP's article (the possibility of bias is present, but there's no one else doing the testing on it, a discussion for another day), but I don't like the heating and cooling times of the salt bath. With induction, you sit down and practically start annealing brass. It's also a more refined system that results in a much cleaner looking bench, and that's important
You'll notice I simply defended my position from false claims. I couldnt care less what you do. Bake them on your traeger if you want
Been doing SBA for a while and while I am sure that it does not reduce the hardness of the brass to a fully annealed state it does reduce the harness. I am running it quite a bit higher than 500c and a little longer than 5 seconds.
With that being said Im currently building an induction annealer because SBA is like trimming cases, dreadful.
Oh and I have never had cases last 30+ reloads before using SBA.
With that being said Im currently building an induction annealer because SBA is like trimming cases, dreadful.
Oh and I have never had cases last 30+ reloads before using SBA.
I would like to see someone competent other than AMP to do the testing like what AMP is doing recently with the annealed vs non annealed but with the salt bath. If they did it, it would just be more people saying it's biased. I keep reading all these posts that it does what I need it to do with no real testing so far.
Problem is, unless you can find maybe a student who wants to do a project.....the only people who give a shit are probably selling annealing equipment.
So, whichever side they are on, flame, induction, or salt, the others will always say they are biased.
I thought the salts would effuse poisonous gases which is why they say to stop at 500c or 980f or whatever the actual number is?
There are various salt formulas, the working range can be from 300F to 1700F.
Here are some salts with their information sheets, look for yourself.
https://www.hubbardhall.com/applications/heat-treatment/
Look at this particular products "uses".
https://www.hubbardhall.com/product_bulletin/quick-temper-430/?dl=1
Here are some salts with their information sheets, look for yourself.
https://www.hubbardhall.com/applications/heat-treatment/
Look at this particular products "uses".
https://www.hubbardhall.com/product_bulletin/quick-temper-430/?dl=1
No. You made false claims. With claims like more accurate, and better. You did not defend those claims. You simply linked more people making other claims. Then accused the company that did an in depth study on the process of bias, and dismissed their claims outrightly. In fact you went beyond dismissing their claims. You called them "obviously biased." For them to be obviously biased, you need evidence that their study biased. Please point me to it.
If your evidence is more anecdotal bull shit like, "they loose all their money cause SBA is too dern cheap." Please don't waste our time.
Hell, I'm a student. That would be a great project. Just gotta get access to a Rockwell C hardness testing platform...
I dont think its that serious. I wonder if there is a guage somewhere that measures pressure in the range that the case mouth would crush when the proper level of annealing is reached.
I can take a pair of needle nose pliers and pinch the case mouth as I apply heat and tell exactly when it softens.
But it doesn't quite manifest itself the same way. A case can be softer/weaker after annealing and still not be "correctly annealed" according to AMP's research. This would mean that you could extend case life and increase sizing precision (by reducing brass springback), which SBA has been shown to be able to do, but not achieve the full potential of what annealing is supposed to accomplish. What that "full potential" is, is beyond me. For cartridge brass, extending the life of my cartridges is basically all I really want annealing to do.
The reason I would want to do the experimenting in the first place would be to substantiate or challenge AMP's claims, which would mean testing in a similar way that they did in their research. If it's solid, then I should be able to relatively easily replicate the results.
Thread Synopsis: Scientific research is required since no real-world cases provide useable data outside of the noise-floor/margin of error. Down range data too similar. Anecdotal evidence only.
There are truly some raging hard-ons these days to get an extra loading or two into a piece of brass. Welcome to the Internet. Look at David Tubb or Lee Rasmussen’s technique. Annealing, what’s that (no joke)? Granted, generally jamming is required to be able to do this too. You either load for comps or you load for a field-rifle via that method.
My point is this: Do what you really want to with brass prep, but realize that better time management could be utilized "on the trigger" instead of dicking around with methods on how to get a piece of brass hot via today‘s new thing.
There are truly some raging hard-ons these days to get an extra loading or two into a piece of brass. Welcome to the Internet. Look at David Tubb or Lee Rasmussen’s technique. Annealing, what’s that (no joke)? Granted, generally jamming is required to be able to do this too. You either load for comps or you load for a field-rifle via that method.
My point is this: Do what you really want to with brass prep, but realize that better time management could be utilized "on the trigger" instead of dicking around with methods on how to get a piece of brass hot via today‘s new thing.
I wanted to test higher temps, but the warning of 550c will boil the salt thus causing sarin gas in your shop...
Right off of the ballistic recreations website
"NOTE: If heated above 590°C this salt will begin to decompose, releasing hazardous nitrogen oxide fumes . At higher temperatures the salt becomes a powerful oxidizer that may cause spontaneous and violent ignition of flammable materials including wood, wax, oil, plastics, and light metals. I do not recommend using this salt without a temperature measurement device that is known to be accurate in the range of 300°-600°C."
Which one? Neutral salt C is the only one I see in the higher temp range for non-ferous metals. But it specifies that getting nitrates, cyanides, cleaning compounds, or or oils in the salt will ruin it, and it will need to be dumped. Unburned powder is full of nitrates.
Thing is with all the given methods being somewhat successful I'm not sure there is a perfect number or perfect anneal. Yeah AMP can come up with a number and show how its machine can reach it. It seems more like that perfect number is a range needed to soften it enough to reduce spring back.
That's all I really care about. I want to be able to set my die and size any case I run through it to the same spec. Added life is a byproduct of not working hard brass.
If you want a test. Separate a lot of brass into 3 groups annealed by amp, SBA, and flame.
Anneal, Size, load and fire them until they fail. Documenting everything along the way.
Any of the quick temper products can be used for non ferrous metals most all can run up to 1100F, you really should clean the brass before SBA.
That was the one thing I thought was suspicious about AMP's testing. They weren't really showing how they arrived at the "ideal anneal" numbers that they set as the standard
They specify nonferrous, and specify carbon steel on others. There is more than likely a reason for that. I emailed them to ask.
