Howa 1500 with KRG Bravo, or make the step to MPA BA PMR Pro? 6.5 creedmoor

johnnymenudo

Private
Minuteman
Mar 3, 2002
12
1
I am sitting on the fence with this one. I just joined a club that has 1,300 yards available, as well as formal opportunities to train at the longer distances. I am also thinking of getting into PRS at some point. Would stay in production class. I know my 308 bolt gun like the back of my hand, but it is just not going to cut it at the longer distances. Some members have suggested custom builders but they all turned out to be $4,000 + range. Not making that leap yet.

So I am at the decision point of going budget with the Howa build, or do I just get the MPA? There are pros and cons and the cost of add-ons for the Howa could add up. I also think resale on the MPA would be better. I am sure a few of you have been at this crossroads. Suggestions?
 

Rob01

Cool Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 9, 2001
13,519
6,936
NC
I suggest you forget about production and just get what you want. Pretty sure production is just that and the rifle has to be produced by a company and not one you build for under $2500. You like your .308 then go shoot it unless it's not set up with a mag or has a 16" barrel.
 

johnnymenudo

Private
Minuteman
Mar 3, 2002
12
1
I am not sure what you mean forget about production. If I am going to compete in PRS I have to pick a division. As long as the cost of the rifle is less than $2500 and Optic is less than $2000 you are GTG. I don't see any reason to get into open. Big $$$ being spent. My 308 is not a 1,000 -1,300 yard capable rifle.
 

stello1001

Professional Newb
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Feb 20, 2017
    3,905
    2,635
    Corpus Christi TX
    I own two Howa rifles. While they may not be as nice as customs or as the MPA, they will literally do everything the higher priced guns do and do it just as well. I would get the Howa and spend the rest (that you would spend on the MPA) on ammo or accessories, etc.
     

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,519
    6,936
    NC
    I am not sure what you mean forget about production. If I am going to compete in PRS I have to pick a division. As long as the cost of the rifle is less than $2500 and Optic is less than $2000 you are GTG. I don't see any reason to get into open. Big $$$ being spent. My 308 is not a 1,000 -1,300 yard capable rifle.

    I mean it's kind of a joke of a division with the raising of prices and sandbaggers who shot open shooting it to place better. Getting into the sport you shouldn't worry about a division as you have to learn a lot more about the sport before a division choice makes any difference. You can shoot production if you like but you would probably be better off shooting your .308 in a couple matches and see what you want or need. What are your .308 specs?


    As I said go read the rules. You can not put together a rifle for under $2500 and shoot production. It has to be made by a company that way.


    2.3 Bolt Gun - Production Division
    The PRS Production Division was created to encourage growth to our shooting
    community from outside our ranks by allowing shooters the opportunity to compete in
    PRS events without being disadvantaged due to custom equipment. In order to
    accomplish this, we have set limits on the original cost of your rifle and the optic. All
    other equipment that can be mounted to or added to your rifle that doesn’t significantly
    increase accuracy will be considered accessories and will not be regulated. We want
    shooters to be able to buy new equipment or pick up a new item off a prize table and be
    able to use it without the fear of being disqualified from the Production Division.

    2.3.1 Production Division rifles shall not exceed $2,500 USD as listed on the company’s
    website. The optic shall not exceed $2,500 USD as listed on the company’s website.
    • Discontinued rifle models that met the above published price limits, before being
    discontinued, will be allowed continued use in the Production division.
    • Rifle models purchased that met the above criteria at the time of purchase, but
    have undergone a subsequent price increase on the manufacturer’s website, will
    be allowed continued use in the Production division. In this case, PRS
    competitors must submit documentation of the date of purchase to the PRS.

    2.3.2 Rifle: For the purpose of the Production Division, a rifle is defined as a publicly
    available rifle per the original manufacturer’s configuration of a complete firearm which
    will be comprised of at least but not limited to the following: stock with bottom metal or
    chassis, a complete action, a barrel and a trigger mechanism.
    2.3.3 In order to compete in the PRS Production Division the manufacturer of the
    competitor’s rifle must meet the following requirements:
    • The manufacturer must be a licensed manufacture of firearms and ammunition (a
    Type 7 FFL).
    • The manufacturer must produce 50 or more production rifles per year.
    Discontinued models must have had a total production of 250 units.
    • Manufacturers must produce 50 production rifles before being approved as a
    PRS production rifle.
    • The manufacturer must maintain a website on which the rifle and its
    specifications are listed.
    • All actions and barrels must have the name of the manufacturer conspicuously
    engraved, cast, or stamped on the firearm within ATF regulations 27
    CFR479.100.

    The intent of the rule change is to better define the production division for both shooters
    and manufacturers. Shooters that have been competing with Production rifles under the
    old rules will be allowed to continue to compete in the Production Division. If the shooter
    is unsure if their rifle meets the above requirements, they must email the PRS for written
     

    stello1001

    Professional Newb
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Feb 20, 2017
    3,905
    2,635
    Corpus Christi TX
    I have a howa chassis rifle in 6.5 CM and a howa mini un 6.5 G sporting a boyds pro varmint.

    The one pictured below is not mine but it looks just like it!
    IMG_20210710_064842_690.jpg
    Howa-1500-miniaction-in-Boyds-stock-2.jpg
     

    johnnymenudo

    Private
    Minuteman
    Mar 3, 2002
    12
    1
    I agree with your comment about the sandbaggers, but you have to pick a division, right? I suppose I could shoot open with my $1,000 gun. I don't care really. I don't need a medal or anything.

    I can get a Howa 1500 with the KRG Bravo as built by Howa so it does meet the requirements.

     
    • Like
    Reactions: Average guy

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,519
    6,936
    NC
    Yup you can use that. When you said "build" it says to me you are building it. If you are unsure of your future in the sport then you can get in cheap and see if you like it. Why I mentioned trying your .308 but which of the two you mentioned will come down to what you feel comfortable spending the money to buy.

    If you want to shoot production then go for it. You will learn what I am saying when you get into it more.
     

    johnnymenudo

    Private
    Minuteman
    Mar 3, 2002
    12
    1
    I understand why you replied how you did now. I was a bit confused. I can use my 308 for tactical division, which I think I might try. I was told by one of the main club guys who is an instructor, that the 308 guys tend to struggle a bit when they get out to 1,000 + yards. Can be done but not easy. They are using an electronic target system that sometimes will not pick up slower moving projectiles as well.
     

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,519
    6,936
    NC
    Struggle depends on the bullet used, velocity and barrel length. What are the specs of your .308?

    Is this an actual PRS match? Never shot one that used electronic target system as those are usually used for F Class.
     

    johnnymenudo

    Private
    Minuteman
    Mar 3, 2002
    12
    1
    I don't know what they all use the scoring system for, but for all of the classes and practices, they use it. I have not done a PRS match.

    22" barrel. Sometime suppressor use. I either use Federal or my own loads with sierra 168 or 175 gr. I never had the opportunity to shoot out past 600 in the past.
     

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,519
    6,936
    NC
    Yeah usually PRS is all steel so no issues with .308s at those ranges.

    The SMK 168 is a terrible long range bullet. They will shoot accurately at shorter ranges but go to trash at longer ranges going transonic. The 175 are OK. I would be looking at a newer bullet with a BC in the .520+ range. Lots out there. I use a 168 ELD-M in my Tac Division .308. Have shot it out past 1250 yards in matches with them at 2760fps. With a 22" barrel you should be fine getting a good bullet to 2700fps. Does you rifle have magazines?
     

    Wiillk

    Major Hide Member
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    May 18, 2020
    1,521
    3,353
    I know they are technically "production," but you really would have a very hard time getting anything better than a Bad Rock, an MPA BA Pro or a GAP. $2500.00. It's the major advantage of this "production" class. It makes really good rifles available to us for prices more affordable.

    You don't have to shoot Production, but these three fine rifles are good to go in just about any PRS class.

    Don't want to spend quite that much, the RPR is hard to beat for the money. Just Caliber selection is not as wide. (and the 6mm CM is only available in their custom shop model which takes a good bit of the price advantage away).

    Finally, wanting to compete in PRS; I'm no expert, but if competition is where you want to go, get one in one of the 6mm's. If just shooting is what you want, a 6.5 will give you better target hit recognition.

    (I own a MPA BA Pro and an RPR Both are super shooters).
     

    johnnymenudo

    Private
    Minuteman
    Mar 3, 2002
    12
    1
    Yeah usually PRS is all steel so no issues with .308s at those ranges.

    The SMK 168 is a terrible long range bullet. They will shoot accurately at shorter ranges but go to trash at longer ranges going transonic. The 175 are OK. I would be looking at a newer bullet with a BC in the .520+ range. Lots out there. I use a 168 ELD-M in my Tac Division .308. Have shot it out past 1250 yards in matches with them at 2760fps. With a 22" barrel you should be fine getting a good bullet to 2700fps. Does you rifle have magazines?

    I have only shot 600 yards or less so the SMK have worked very well. My rifle is an old Remington PSS. Besides the action, it is really not a PSS anymore. Upgraded stock to McMillan A5, and a replacement barrel. Old school - no magazine. My current scope is a 3-15X. A lot of reasons to consider a new rifle for what I am looking to do.

    I get the sense that you are not a huge fan of the 6.5 creedmoor platform.
     

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,519
    6,936
    NC
    I have only shot 600 yards or less so the SMK have worked very well. My rifle is an old Remington PSS. Besides the action, it is really not a PSS anymore. Upgraded stock to McMillan A5, and a replacement barrel. Old school - no magazine. My current scope is a 3-15X. A lot of reasons to consider a new rifle for what I am looking to do.

    I get the sense that you are not a huge fan of the 6.5 creedmoor platform.
    LOL You are far off on that sense. I was actually one of the first to shoot the 6.5 Creedmoor in what is now called PRS matches when I shot for Hornady and have had one in my safe since early 2008 when GA Precision built their first ever 6.5 Creedmoors for my two team mates and me. I was only trying to get you to try the rifle you have and not waste money on a totally new set up if for some reason you didn't want to continue to compete. If you want a new rifle then buy one.

    As to your .308, it would work perfect if it was mag fed. As it is you can shoot it in matches but better have a way to reload the next 5 rounds quickly. Or you can just buy an inexpensive chassis set up like the KRG Bravo and drop your barreled action in it and you will be hitting matches for $350 and the cost of a few mags. Or just change the McMillan over to a DBM set up which will be probably around the same cost.
     

    johnnymenudo

    Private
    Minuteman
    Mar 3, 2002
    12
    1
    LOL You are far off on that sense. I was actually one of the first to shoot the 6.5 Creedmoor in what is now called PRS matches when I shot for Hornady and have had one in my safe since early 2008 when GA Precision built their first ever 6.5 Creedmoors for my two team mates and me. I was only trying to get you to try the rifle you have and not waste money on a totally new set up if for some reason you didn't want to continue to compete. If you want a new rifle then buy one.

    As to your .308, it would work perfect if it was mag fed. As it is you can shoot it in matches but better have a way to reload the next 5 rounds quickly. Or you can just buy an inexpensive chassis set up like the KRG Bravo and drop your barreled action in it and you will be hitting matches for $350 and the cost of a few mags. Or just change the McMillan over to a DBM set up which will be probably around the same cost.
    I appreciate the ideas. All make good sense. I love my 308 as is, and I have not bought a rifle in a while. Will give your suggestions some thought. Thanks!
     

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,519
    6,936
    NC
    No problem. Just trying to keep you from spending money you may not have to or want to. Another option is to keep an eye in the PX here as you can find some great deals on rifles and parts.
     

    DeathBeforeDismount

    Pretty much Infantry
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 20, 2021
    1,684
    2,191
    West Coast
    I am not sure what you mean forget about production. If I am going to compete in PRS I have to pick a division. As long as the cost of the rifle is less than $2500 and Optic is less than $2000 you are GTG. I don't see any reason to get into open. Big $$$ being spent. My 308 is not a 1,000 -1,300 yard capable rifle.
    What he is saying is, Production is one of the retard classes Like TAC and GG. There are a only a handful of decent shooters in the entire country in those divisions and most are sponsored to shoot those guns/optics.

    No one really takes production seriously because you can be the only guy at a match, come in last place and still get 100 points. Its basically the special Olympics. 99% of people shoot open and you are better off building a gun setup the way you want then trying to be the best in a field of nobodies. People might not say shit to your face but they are thinking it and talking shit behind your back.

    Productions guns are 95% as capable as open, so its really only a division separated by Money and not quality. Some of the best production shooters still finish top 5, but they would finish top 5 with any gun.

    If you are serious and think you will get into this, Spend the money on good gear up front. It will be WAY cheaper in the long run and you will not be frustrated chasing gear issues like many new shooters do. There is enough shit you have to learn and focus on, that being able to not worry about the gear is going to lessen the learning curve much faster.

    Plus you will learn most from the guys you shoot and compete with. You want to run the same class guns and bullets as them so they can help you out with wind. If they are all shooting 6mm and you are shooting a 308 going 2600, they wont be a ton of help to you.
     

    Beezer911

    Private
    Minuteman
    Oct 18, 2020
    63
    19
    Midwest
    I appreciate the ideas. All make good sense. I love my 308 as is, and I have not bought a rifle in a while. Will give your suggestions some thought. Thanks!
    So, have you picked a path yet? The only thing I'd add is this: before you start spending money, go watch a match. That was the advice I got from guys at the club. Best advice ever. Like you, I'd never shot a match, but wanted to buy a gun. After going and watching a match, then helping out at a second, I got to see, shoulder, and play with all sorts of different set-ups and talk with the shooters about the pros and cons of their setups. It was very informative. At the end of the day, a number of guys had me fire off a few rounds to see what different set-ups felt like.

    So, that'd be my advice - go hang out at a couple matches. In my experience, most of the shooters are very welcoming and once word got around about why I was there, I had people actually coming to find me to show me things - both equipment related, but also talking me through stages, how things work, etc. Advice online is great, but seeing everything in person really clarifies things that, for me at least, weren't 100% when talking online.
     

    308pirate

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Apr 25, 2017
    21,229
    32,507
    I can use my 308 for tactical division, which I think I might try.

    You could do that.

    But better yet, stop worrying about which division you should shoot in. You're going to suck no matter what, no matter where, when you're new to any competition shooting discipline. It is what it is. Shooting is not the only skill you need. Specific to PRS, position building and target finding are skills that you will not have going in and are going to cost you tons of time.

    I also strongly suggest not sinking any money into anything until you understand the sport and its rules a bit better. Nothing says clueless better than someone who buys a wholly inappropriate or ineffective firearm or piece of equipment just because they thought it made sense (with no actual knowledge) or someone told them it was "good for comps".
     

    MDof2

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Mar 6, 2020
    681
    581
    Magatopia
    Take your Howa and go shoot.
    Forget about divisions. Seriously. Tac vs. Production Vs. Open, Vs. whatever. It's retarded.
    Load a few hundred rounds, get some good dope, and go shoot a few matches. Build your skill of shooting modified prone, moving, bag placement, shooting prone, off barricades, holding over, no dial, natural point of aim, perfect trigger presses every single time. Build those skill, and don't wory about the classes.
    You'll figure out what works and what doesn't and what you want to upgrade or change.