Gunsmithing I can't trust my level-level-level

[dang472]

I just got my 700 SA action back from SSG (Thanks Nate!) and I'm trying to do everything by the book. I bought a Wheeler level-level-level kit a few weeks ago and just mounted my new Vortex PST in the Vortex precision matched rings. My action level and my one piece EGW 20moa base aren't jiving. I leveled the scope off the action level and it just didn't look right. When I leveled the scope off the base, the crosshairs looked right to me. I did some searching here and thought maybe the base needed to be bedded. I removed everything again and checked for gaps in the one piece base. That looked good. I'm leaning towards the action level being off. Has anyone here come across this? There is no sense in having a tool you can't trust. I even tried to use the action level on top of a 1 foot level and it seemed a little off.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

Ya I have one and I don't use it anymore.. I use feeler gauges off the base. It's faster and it works.

 

[dang472]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I'm bringing my feeler gauges home from work tomorrow, but I was just concerned my base was really off from my action. In this case, the gauges would just level the scope to a crooked base. I watched the good video that LoneWolfUSMC posted on bedding a scope base, so I'm pretty confident my mount is good.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

The issue with the LLL kit is that you have to make sure that you are on the rails in the action. I just got frustrated and used feeler gauges. I am sure that your action is not off. If you want put a level on your scope mount and use the LLL on it to see if it is off. Odds are that a piece of plastic made in china is off and your $800-$1000 action is bedded properly.

 

[VonReich]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I agree with Kev, thats a very valid point. I ran across this issue with my Rem 700 SPS .308. Unless you get a very very nice model you'll see that the stocks are completely POS, you cant go wrong with going off of the Action. A way I do it here in Afghanistan is I hang a string with a weight tied off of it from a nail on the wall (Plum line) and set a level on my base or action to make sure it's level - then focus the scope's Y Axis crosshair line to the plumb line. It works for me, but thats just my $0.02

 

[dang472]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

Yeah I'm confident my trued action sitting in a new AICS is better than the $.30 piece of plastic. I'm surprised though because I've had good luck with Wheeler stuff in the past. I'm a mechanic and have access to some nice levels for adjusting camber and alignment but nothing small enough for the action rails. I'll do the feeler gauge trick tomorrow and verify with a string line. Thanks, I just needed someone to hold me and tell me everything is alright!!!

 

[SCOTTx88]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

Haven't had a problem with mine, just make sure your on the rails to start. Make sure the scope isn't moving when your tightening the rings.

 

[dang472]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I action level is definitely on the rails. This level doesn't correspond with any level on the 1 piece scope mount. If I level the scope off of the action reading I'm getting, the crosshairs really look bad. I really think there is something wrong with the magnetic pad on the action level.

 

[z71rat]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya I have one and I don't use it anymore.. I use feeler gauges off the base. It's faster and it works. </div></div>

Absolutely the best and fastest method out there. I have used this method exclusively for a really long time now. It just flat out works!!

DK

 

[dang472]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

This looks like a good setup for AR high rings.

http://www.schryvergunsales.com/scopeleveler.htm

 

[Hi Speed]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

Feeler gauges or eye it. I use feeler gauges.

 

[50calibercruiser]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I had a similar experience leveling my NF. I used levels everywhere I could put one and the cross hairs appeared fine.
Shot the gun and it would not track up a string at all.
Totally frustrated at my inability to accomplish such a seemingly simple task. My final solution was: hang a plumb line at 100 yards, sand bag the gun, level the gun (not the action, just the gun), line the cross hairs vertically with the plumb line, then add a Vortex scope level while everything is "square". The final test was the string test. I tracked up 40 MOA and had no perceivable movement left or right.

Now here is the kicker. After I took the gun out of it's secured position and put it back down to shot I noticed looking through the scope the cross hairs were straight but the scope level was off. Well I just shot the thing and everything was tight so I shot the gun just off my perceived level. Way off! I then forced myself to hold the cross hairs level with the scope level. Dead on. I had been holding my rifle incorrectly (or not level) the whole time.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

that sounds like a scope issue .. where the reticle is not installed properly .... Warranty time

 

[turbo54]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I like the feeler gage method. It makes a number of assumptions, but there again, every method shy of using a CMM and an optical comparator makes assumptions.

Also, no one has mentioned it yet, so I will:

You have to be very careful what you compare your reticle to, in determining if the reticle is canted. I've found that at times, depending on my target and/or the terrain I'm shooting in, that my reticle LOOKS askew even though the level reads plumb... Meanwhile, if I hang a plumbline, the reticle is vertical, even thought it "looks" skewed.

 

[mtang45]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

Modified string method:

1) Place rifle in gun vice.
2) Place rifle and gun vice on a surface with rifle perpendicular to a wall and butt of rifle up against the wall.
3) Hang string with weight, on the wall directly above buttstock.
5) Use quality level on scope base to assure action is level.
6) Place rings on base and scope in rings.
7) Shine flashlight rearward thru objective lens of scope.
8) The scope reticle will be projected onto the wall behind the rifle.
9) Rotate scope until reticle aligns (parallel) with vertical string.
10) Tighten rings.

 

[JNel]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I mounted a scope today, just for shits and giggles I checked my LLL kit vs the USO rail level. Every thing jived well with my levels. Notice the scope was mounted with a feeler gauge. Next is to test the with a plumb bob, then a vertical line on a target to test tracking.

 

[dang472]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

Yeah I did that exact same level check the first time. I leveled the scope to the action level and the crosshairs looked off to me. I then removed the scope and compared the action level to a level on the scope base. They were a litle off of each other. Next I leveled the scope off of the base (eliminating the action level) and the crosshairs seemed perfect. Using my Vortex anti-cant level and looking at various known vertical edges, the scope seems correct. I'll do a plumb line to be sure. I really think the Wheeler action level is defective.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VonReich</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Kev, thats a very valid point. I ran across this issue with my Rem 700 SPS .308. Unless you get a very very nice model you'll see that the stocks are completely POS, you cant go wrong with going off of the Action. A way I do it here in Afghanistan is I hang a string with a weight tied off of it from a nail on the wall (Plum line) and set a level on my base or action to make sure it's level - then focus the scope's Y Axis crosshair line to the plumb line. It works for me, but thats just my $0.02 </div></div>

I like the sound of this approach. I'm going to try this next time. Thanks for the tip! - Todd

 

[apricot]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

use paralel blocks that a machinest uses and the plum bob also. dead nuts perfect every time. and yes wheeler products are junk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ar15is223]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I have the Wheeler magnetic level thing and I am pretty convinced its junk. I can get repeatable results with it and it seems flimsy.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

if the turrets are off, just a little, you will not get a good reading, no matter what you do. level your RETICLE with a level rifle.

try this:
LOW BUDGET .22 TRAINER - base / scope / bipod / bore site PART 1

LOW BUDGET .22 TRAINER - base / scope / bipod / bore site PART 2

the same can be done with a plum bob, or string with a weight on it.

 

[mdavis78102]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I've tried the Wheeler Level and had the same difficulties you guys had. I now use a machinist's level, and my barrel vise. I level the rifle using the machinist's level, clamp it in the barrel vise, and use the machinist's level to level the scope. Think I'll go back and check with feeler gauges and see if it turns out the same.

 

[jgerrington]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I haven't had great results with the level level level either. making sure the action is level in a gun vice is most important. then using feeler gauges and plumb line will work.

 

[salty dog]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I have 2 sets of LLL and each one reads differently. I definitely dont trust them.

 

[dang472]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

Thanks guys for the info. I had a hunch that the plastic level was the problem, but you just never know sometimes. I just used feeler gauges and a string line and everything seems right with the world.

 

[DCR]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

I tossed my LLL after not being able to get my scope leveled. Glad it wasn't just me.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

So, how good to feeler gauges work with two piece bases?

 

[DCR]

Re: I can't trust my level-level-level

Doubt it works at all.