Rifle Scopes I just don't get it, Illumination

[tipper]

I just don't get it, Illumination
I don't see the need for Illumination of the reticle !
Most of us shoot in the daylight 99.9%

Pros: Red & Green for the Holidays
Cons: Biggie Adds cost to scope (less Ammo)
Something that will break
when not lite reticle goes from black to silver in different light conditions
adds weight to scope
battery is dead (must of left it on $3.50 a pop, less Ammo ) Dam it
More clutter with knobs
If you shoot at night wouldn't it screw-up your night-vision
May give you away (I see you)
There is probably more

 

[RHutch]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

Using fine reticles in low light can benefit from illumination if executed properly.

 

[oud272]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

Yep, most of us do shoot in daylight. However, if you do shoot in low light to almost total darkness they are a very valuable asset.

Red does not screw up your night vision, as long as the reticle is used at the lowest setting needed to just see the cross hairs.

I always keep a spare battery in my Tac-Ops cheek pad.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I don't know. I don't think that illumination is something that I would have gone out of my way to get, and I rarely use it; but on those times that I needed it, I was glad that I had it.

To me, I don't see having it as a disadvantage. I run a Nightforce, so I don't have an extra knob to deal with and the scope doesn't come any other way.

 

[Travis S]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

Its got its pros and cons. Biggest pro is it helps you pick up the center of reticle when shooting in low lighting against a dark target. Poking holes in piggies comes to mind. Also late evening shooting. When installed properly in a quality scope and used properly its a wonderful thing. When its done in an improperly prepped/ built scope its a royal PITA.
When its misused and in a crap preped scope you get washout, and allsorts of crap shows up in your glass.
If you want it, buy a good scope with it or you will curse it.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

dont forget, it's very snipery

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

you need to use one to see the benefit.

if you have a target against a back ground of the same color, ex brown deer, brown back ground, it can give you some extra contrast, it also helps your reticle stand out against black targets.

if you have it set too high, it can hurt your night vision. don't do it.

it's easy to turn on and off, plus most have an auto off feature if it isn't being used.

if it's a decent scope, batteries last 1000's of hours.

it gets too dark to see your reticle, but you can still see through your scope, turn it on, keep hunting

 

[springer01]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I would of missed many hogs if I would not if had an illuminated scope!

 

[Advokaten]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I do half my hunting at night,

no ilum, no game.

Thinking usually benefits from not being limited by ones own horizon.

/Chris

 

[Overflow10]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

In normal daylight. Yup correct. So if you are shooting paper during the day then it is a waste of money.

But you wait for that one shot, and the damn animal will just not come out of the thicket, and it gets darker and darker, and you finally discern some movement..and you can not see your crosshairs worth a s__t.... The cons pretty much evaporate.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

We shoot evenings and nights from time to time to beat the heat and the illuminated reticle is every nice. I use the illumination on the lowest setting, running a US Optics 3.2-17x44mm SN-3.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

OR you could go the cheaper route, here is an alternate approach, got this at borders for 4.99 and it illuminates the reticle quite nicely

 

[notquiteright]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

VJJ-
you just aint right!

I have used illum rets and prefer non. Biggest problem with the glowing dot is it does make picking the dark piggie out of a dark backround even harder. Most shooters do tighter groups with non illum reticles than with them.

I cringe at the thought of a hunter deciding to take a shot in almost total darkness because he sees movement. A military sniper on a high mountain hillside is different than Fudd shooting the other Fudd because there was some movement.

I like good target ID before I squeeze the trigger and the glowy dot doesnt help with that at all. I want the biggest sow or 8 or more points on my buck.

But to each there own, just hope most of you other guy's own is far away from my own.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

all of these illuminations issues have a solution, just turn it down. easy as that. if you can see it during daylight, it's too bright

 

[tipper]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">VJJ-
you just aint right!

I have used illum rets and prefer non. Biggest problem with the glowing dot is it does make picking the dark piggie out of a dark backround even harder. Most shooters do tighter groups with non illum reticles than with them.

I cringe at the thought of a hunter deciding to take a shot in almost total darkness because he sees movement. A military sniper on a high mountain hillside is different than Fudd shooting the other Fudd because there was some movement.

I like good target ID before I squeeze the trigger and the glowy dot doesnt help with that at all. I want the biggest sow or 8 or more points on my buck.

But to each there own, just hope most of you other guy's own is far away from my own. </div></div>

This is the right answer. AAA+++

 

[j.c.]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

On a FFP at low magnification it is a lot easier to see the target than to see the cross hair I think. I haven't done rigorous timing but I have tried acquiring targets with and without the illumination and it does seem a lot easier and faster to get on the target with the illumination in those conditions. The way I see it with a moving target in low light you got two strikes against you and could use a little help. Yes 99.9% of the time it will be in the off position and the remainder isn't worth the cost for the most part. But for a primary hunting rifle I think it makes sense.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">VJJ-
you just aint right!

I have used illum rets and prefer non. Biggest problem with the glowing dot is it does make picking the dark piggie out of a dark backround even harder. Most shooters do tighter groups with non illum reticles than with them.

I cringe at the thought of a hunter deciding to take a shot in almost total darkness because he sees movement. A military sniper on a high mountain hillside is different than Fudd shooting the other Fudd because there was some movement.

I like good target ID before I squeeze the trigger and the glowy dot doesnt help with that at all. I want the biggest sow or 8 or more points on my buck.

But to each there own, just hope most of you other guy's own is far away from my own. </div></div>


Turn the freakin Illum down....its not a spotlight........

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

When we ordered our USO's about 18 months ago, I wasn't sure whether to get illum or not.

I asked folks on the Hide for advice from folks and thought I got good counsel. Some centered on 'better to have and not need than need and not have...' but also a good case was made for low light shooting, etc. Good cases were also made for not going illum as well.

Having a lit reticle available, I've run it through its paces a lot. This is on USO T-Pal's w. a MilGap reticles. Red illum, rather than green.

As stated by folks above, it really comes into its own at dusk or at night shoots, though on lowest settings. Any of the higher settings will wash the vision out of your shooting eye and wash the target out.

I have also used the illumination quite a bit in daylight and bright sunlight to see what it will do. On highest settings, the red reticle (illuminated) can be very useful against dark targets. During daylight, it doesn't appear 'illuminated' per-se. It just becomes a red reticle.

We did an egg hunt for training this past spring. It was overcast and somewhat rainy, but bright. Eggs on wire stands at 200 yds against a dark green background of foliage on a berm. I set the illum so that I could see a hint of red (rather than just black) and it really helped make the reticle pop out.

As mentioned above, it is very important that the illum be capable of dialing down to a very low setting. First time I used illum. was on a borrowed NF scope at a school. This was a true night shoot at 22:00 hours with very limited light on target and no NV gear. I thought the illum did not go dim enough and it made target acquisition very difficult. It also ruined my night vision in my shooting eye for some time and washed out the target. That experience turned me off illuminated reticles and had folks here not made good arguments for... I probably would not have ordered.

Anyway, ability to dim the reticle down is a serious concern where target ID is everything and unless you are night shooting known targets on a closed range... target ID is everything whether you are LE, mil or hog/coyote/varmint shooting.

I've seen the new USO 'push button' controls and will probably get a chance to demo one of those soon (if JBW3 will send some to Gastonia???). But that looks like a fantastic way to bring more adjustment into lit reticles.

Overall, I was very happy w. the advice to go w. illuminated reticles. I started a skeptic (even a non-fan after my first experience). Now have found lots of ways they can be useful.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[psinclair]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

It's there if I need it...

 

[Conrad101st]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

Yep, you can tell a big bull elk is a big bull elk out on a meadow but you lose the reticle on him at last legal shooting light so a little illumination help can be nice.

 

[cttbax]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conrad101st</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yep, you can tell a big bull elk is a big bull elk out on a meadow but you lose the reticle on him at last legal shooting light so a little illumination help can be nice. </div></div>


this...and it is nice for smackin yotes at dusk!

 

[DWood]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

The best thing about illumination is that you don't have to buy it if you don't want it. problems solved.

 

[Meat Hunter]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I have a $2000 Swarovski Z6 non illuminated scope. In very low light I can see better with this glass than anything I have ever looked through. Problem is that in the woods I cannot see the reticle at all when it is dark enough. Still legal shooting light too. When I bought the scope the salesman said the illuminated reticle was an expensive gimmick that was not needed. Well he was full of crap.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

rr-
Laffin, I turned the dot down as low as it can go, I have tried quite a few illum scopes. I had access to a wide variety of scopes on a monthly basis.

And there was a wide variety of other shooters attempting the low light shots.

Guys without illum shot tighter groups. Guys who could lower their mag down below 6X and had FFP reticles were faster on target than their illum high powered scope buddies.

The one area where my scope 'failed' me was on a 700 yard steel target way past legal hunting time. The illum guy got at best 10 minutes more time on target than I had.

Course my excuse is I would have liked a clearer lens system in my scope over illum... LOL

The better to have and not need has a fellow traveller of out of sight/out of mind. Dead batteries are more the norm than a regular routine of battery replacement. (and more than a few battery slots have been found to be corroded by the battery dying a slow and painful death)

Far more important is good target ID, and that more than a 'lost' reticle pooches the deal.

To each their own, a good test for folks to try is cutout shapes in cardboard against a slightly darker backround. Bear and pig, squirrel and wood chuck, buck and doe. One guy sets it up and calls out the target order- the other shoots it.

Or circle, square, diamond, and rectangle out around 300 and see if the shooter can ID the shape and then engage.

Worth a try don't you think?

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I'm running a non compact Nightforce, so my illumination isn't easily adjustable in the field. As a practical matter, it's a set it and forget it proposition. I set my brightness lever in a dark room with my eyes acclimated to the dark. I adjusted it up until I got a very slight bloom. This has worked very well for me, the few times I've needed it.

 

[threetrees]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

depends on what you call 'illuminated reticle'

on my s&b zenith:

*) if it's getting darker (dusk/dawn), you are in the woods and the contrast is getting low (like mentioned above: dark boar), the flash dot only adds a red dot at the cross hair.

*) the brightness can be adjusted. no 'losing nightsight'.

*) it can be switched off.

***) (from my point of view) big contrast to swaro: the s&b flashdot adds the dot (additional reflection), not like the swaro that has a shining spot. if you look at the reticle, you will notice that the s&b has a classical fully connected reticle, while the swaro z6i has a dot in the center that looks a bit like flyshit. so: if you switch off the flash dot, you will have the _very_ same classical non-illuminated reticle that some of the above seem to prefer.

from my point of view there is (for the above reasons) no reason not to get a flashdot (at least on the s&b)

 

[Jon A]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rr-
Laffin, I turned the dot down as low as it can go, I have tried quite a few illum scopes. I had access to a wide variety of scopes on a monthly basis.</div></div>
Well, you haven't tried the right ones for the application then. There are a lot of scopes available where the illumination turns down low enough such that it has zero affect on your ability to see the target, no matter how dark it is. I really liked my Premier as well as S&B with the Gen II for that type of use.

A few days ago I was shooting steel at 900 yds 45 minutes after sundown with the SS 5-20X50HD and still had a couple of notches dimmer I could have used (while the lowest setting on my March was too bright). The illumination may not be as pretty on it as some other scopes, but it flat works for stuff like that.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I think you miss the point. I was shooting well after official sunset without illum at 700 doing just fine.

Same scopes used with or without illum work to the same standard IF-

The target must be selected from a group of targets, not just I see the white glow of a steel target. ( I did say the illum guy had about 10 minutes longer of shooting time LONG after legal time but we didn't have to say what we were shooting past a white glow against a dark hillside)

Same grade of scope glass with illum on and off.

Making a system that needs batteries to function work vs a bit of training with a scope that has a good mildot reticle and sharp glass, FFP so no batteries are needed....

Selecting the proper scope and using it well means never having to wonder how long the batteries have been in it.

 

[Jon A]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

No, you're missing the point. You said illumination makes it more difficult to pick out and ID the target. I'm telling you while that is true for many illuminated scopes, there are many for which it is not. Until you try one of those, you don't know what you're missing.

There are conditions dark enough you will not be able to see a non-illuminated reticle but will still be able to make out the target (for a scope with good glass). These situations may not happen to some people very often, but when they do a scope as described above will allow you to hit the target when it simply couldn't be done with a non-illuminated scope.

Bust out a shot timer and the conditions under which the illuminated scope becomes vastly more effective are increased greatly.

 

[Texar2]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

May also come in handy if your A.O. is in a place like mogadishu or monrovia.

 

[M21guy]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I'll tell you what, I have it now, and really wished I had it all along. There has been many times I had a hell of a time picking up the cross hairs in certain conditions. Not any longer.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Meat Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a $2000 Swarovski Z6 non illuminated scope. In very low light I can see better with this glass than anything I have ever looked through. Problem is that in the woods I cannot see the reticle at all when it is dark enough. Still legal shooting light too. When I bought the scope the salesman said the illuminated reticle was an expensive gimmick that was not needed. Well he was full of crap. </div></div>

i hear about this type of situation all the time

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

First legal shooting light....I can see the buck and his rack with my eye, the backdrop behind him are shadowed cedar and oak, I can't see my black reticle with all of the shadows.

Solution: one click of the illum, now it contrasts the shadow and have an aiming point, BOOM, buck is down.

 

[JonLSU]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

Surprised no one has given this reason so here it goes:
Because it looks cool like you're playing xbox or playstation!!

 

[Meat Hunter]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JonLSU</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surprised no one has given this reason so here it goes:
Because it looks cool like you're playing xbox or playstation!! </div></div>

Haha that is the first thing some of my buddies say when they look through one of my illuminated scopes. "man that's cool right there just like xbox"

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I don't have much need for illumination on something like a fixed 10x.

I have used them well into the night. If I can ID the target I can pickup the reticle.

When I first started using FFP scopes, I did not have an illuminated reticle. This caused a problem even in dim daylight when the reticle was dialed down against a cluttered background.

My USO and Razor both have illuminated reticles. This has been extremely useful on several occasions.

Additionally if you use a FFP optic in conjunction with a clip on NVD it can assist in picking up a fine reticle against the phosphor screen.

 

[Steve Jensen]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I'm a hunter, not a sniper. Low light and a dark animal can make it almost inpossible to see a non-illuminated cross hair.
Thought it was a gimmick till I lost a couple of shots. Now I'm a believer.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

The couple of times I've used them it has made all the difference in the world.

If you don't get it, don't get it.....

 

[patriotoutlaw]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I'd rather have it and not need it than the other way around.

 

[tipper]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I got a headache!

 

[tipper]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

ttt

 

[RSA-Raven]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

I'm about to buy myself my first illum scope, am i wrong in thinking that if I don't want illum, all I do is not switch it on..? if it fails or run out of juce i'm left with a standard non illum scope, no worse off till I slap in a new battery..?
(PS, looking at Viper PST)
rgds
R-Rav

 

[notquiteright]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

No Jon,
I said alot of things about using the illum reticle. You just choose to dwell on one point that a few scopes are slightly better at doing.

Bottom line and this is something I used to watch happen to dozens of shooters several times a year as well as something I have done while hunting for years.

IF, I say again, IF you have a good target ID then you don't need a dot to be your guide. Those who can't find their reticle are most likely using a hash reticle like Horus or TMR.

TRAIN to use your equipt and the only time difference is long after legal hunting time the dot guy can engage a white glob a few minutes longer than a non illum ret can.

TRAIN to use your scope in the low light of LEGAL hunting time and you can pick a buck out of the backround easily and use your Mildot reticle to put that bullet right where you want it.

I've done it too many times down in the dark creek bottoms where tall dead grass, and dark treelines make spotting game a bit tricky but if I can see it I can shoot it without illum.

Like I have said, I've seen and done this too many times to buy into illum works 'better' under any circumstance other than a few minutes more into total darkness at targets I can barely see and NOT ID.

I have seen non-illum shooters shoot much tighter groups than illum shooters, I have no trouble finding my mildot reticle in legal hunting hours, and have the antlers and tusks to show for it. I've seen too many illum shooters with a dead battery or corroded battery box for the 'better to have it and not need it' to give me a warm fuzzy.

For me the bottomline to most gizmo shooting is a bit of training on the proper equipt under the conditions to be encountered trumps some electric 'improvement'.

Train like you fight is real macho, but few do it under challenging conditions. Actually go to the range in the rain, the snow, the gawd awful heat, actually practice 'the shot' on a buck dummy or cutout 300 yards downrange after official sunset against a dull backround.

Anywho, I wonder if those who give a very vague, "the few times I needed the dot, I was glad to have it" could elaborate on how they trained, (obviously they didn't or they wouldn't say the few times), and when did the dot come in handy that their reticle failed. What reticles are we talking about not working in legal hunting light? TMR? Horus?

This can be hashed out online forever, the simple fact check is a low light test where the shooter has to ID the target and then engage. Depending on the distance real animal shapes or similar sized circles and squares, diamonds and rectangles. One drill is balloons of different colors but beware of using LED lights to give the low light glow,(real training is at least an hour so to try and keep the after sunset glow you will need a small artificial light source) LED tends to bleed the color out of the balloons.

Or you can buy a illum scope and for 99.9% of your shooting you won't need the dot, and if you ever do 'need' it AND the battery is still good you won't know any better and say, "the one time I needed it I was damn glad to have it!"

Or something like that

 

[Jon A]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the simple fact check is a low light test where the shooter has to ID the target and then engage.</div></div>
Yes. And like I said, if you've never played with the right scope in the right conditions you just really have no idea what you're missing.

No amount of training can make the eye see what it is physically incapable of seeing. And as I was alluding to with the shot timer comment, even in conditions where seeing the reticle isn't physically impossible, it may be difficult enough you need to stare and squint for a few seconds before you're sure of what you're seeing and where you're aiming. While making a shot under such conditions may be <span style="font-style: italic">possible</span>, if you think you're be anywhere near as fast, accurate and effective without a good illumination system you're fooling yourself--like I said, you don't know what you're missing until you try.

Here's a visual. There are an infinite number of possibilities, this is just an example for visual evidence so please don't say because no bad guy ever points a gun at you from a shadow illuminated scopes don't work. This could as easily be a big whitetail frozen in the shadow waiting for you to walk by, I was just having trouble finding a volunteer whitetail who would agree to stand there while I took the pics....

Bad guy easily identifiable, pointing a gun at your face. Where the Hell is my reticle? What am I aiming at? HELP!

Little red dot saves the day!

Even darker conditions, taking a headshot:

If you say you never try and shoot anything under such conditions so you don't need it, that is fine. Saying it doesn't work or is never needed is factually inaccurate.

There are some conditions where the right illuminated scope can simply get the job done while a non-illuminated scope simply cannot and will leave you helpless without NV.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't get it, don't get it.....</div></div> The best quote in this entire thread, including from the OP who bumps his thread 10 minutes after bumping it.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

Jon-
I said if you cant ID the target don't shoot at it. In all your examples I see the unlit reticle. Infact I see it rather clearly.

Now to understand the example better, what scope/reticle/power setting are you using? Is it FFP? How far away is your example?

And one last time-
Someone with an illum reticle has a 10 minute longer window, long after legal hunting time than I did with my scope. You don't, or won't read well.

But your examples still show the reticle. Perhaps you can't concentrate well enough to use a non-illum?

 

[jackh]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

you seem like youve made your mind up that its unnecessary fluff. to each his own.

i do not own any scopes with illumination simply because i dont have the money. if i had the money, i would definitely get it though. i think its a very nice feature to have that simply makes low light shooting so much easier.

 

[FrozenRopes]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

This seems simple to me.

If your priority is low light shooting GET it. (Doesn't sound like it is from the OP, which is perfectly OK)

If your priorities are weight, size, or cost, DON'T GET it. (Most people have cost as a bigger priority, which is also OK.)

Get the features you need, not want, and you'll save money.
Cut and dry.

 

[Jon A]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In all your examples I see the unlit reticle. Infact I see it rather clearly.</div></div>
Are you claiming you clearly see the intersection (POA) of the reticle in the first pic? If so, I think I now know the reason for our misunderstanding--you're delusional and you're seeing things. You could not have made the shot in the first pic without illumination, I don't care what kind of "training" you think you have done.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now to understand the example better, what scope/reticle/power setting are you using? Is it FFP? How far away is your example?</div></div>
Since you can see the reticle "rather clearly," why don't you tell me? It should be very obvious what scope that is and roughly what power it's on if you can see the reticle so clearly.

But you can't, so I'll tell you. It's the SS 5-20X50HD. Bad guy is 40 yds out in the shadow of a tree, invisible to the naked eye. The scope is FFP and was on 10-12 power or so. On lower powers (more realistic for the range) the reticle is smaller and harder to see so illumination is even more important--but it didn't make for as good pics.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone with an illum reticle has a 10 minute longer window, long after legal hunting time than I did with my scope. You don't, or won't read well.</div></div>
I read quite well where you said this example on steel was not applicable to real targets that need identification and continued the claim that illumination makes target ID more difficult. And again I'll tell you until you've tried with the right scope you don't know what you're talking about.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you can't concentrate well enough to use a non-illum? </div></div>
Or perhaps you're one of those who feel you get some sort of badge of honor by bragging about what you "don't need." You can probably pound in every nail there is with a crescent wrench as well. That doesn't convince me it's as good a tool for the job as a hammer.

And again you're ignoring speed. A real world test on a target like the above with and without illumination will convince any reasonable person rather quickly. Even in brighter conditions where the reticle is technically visible, the little dot is So. Much. Faster. The guy is pointing a gun at your head afterall, how much time do you want to spend squinting for the reticle? Or it could be a whitetail about to bolt, a bear about to charge....

The simple fact is with the little dot turned on, that scope is a highly effective tool for those conditions, with it off it is not. Until you actually try using such a scope, you just won't know.

 

[Asiparks]

Re: I just don't get it, Illumination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen non-illum shooters shoot much tighter groups than illum shooters, I have no trouble finding my mildot reticle in legal hunting hours, and have the antlers and tusks to show for it. I've seen too many illum shooters with a dead battery or corroded battery box for the 'better to have it and not need it' to give me a warm fuzzy.</div></div>

I'm new to all this, so I'm just trying to grasp what I think you're saying,.... So, two identically skilled shooters, identical rifles each with IOR 3-18 scopes, both with the same reticle, one the illuminated version, one the non illuminated model. You're saying that the shooter with the non illuminated scope will shoot tighter groups, because the illumination will cause the other shooters groups to open up. And if the shooter with the illuminated scope switches off his illumination, will his groups stay larger because of bad glowy scope juju ? Or will they now be the same as the shooter with the non illuminated model ? Because your assertion kind of sounds like bollocks.