I want to build a 300 Norma Mag on this action...........

[JustaJetJock]

PTG has this action on sale and I am thinking of buying one for a future 300 Norma Mag build.
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/acti...7-cfs-stiller-tac-7-lapua-mag-right-long.html
Rifle would be used for shooting steel out to 2000 yards. Maybe further if I can find a place.
Am I nuts for wanting to use this action?
I guess the part I like the most about it is the price.
Your thoughts please, I am aware that many gunsmiths will not use the .701 dia. bolt with a Lapua bolt face. (that is my biggest concern)
If you were planning on doing this, would you consider using this action?
Thanks.

 

[Ledzep]

It would probably work. In a perfect world I'd opt for a Lapua-specific receiver that's bigger around than 1.350". Next behind that I'd probably spring for a Mausingfield (extractor surface area). But I'm sure as long as you don't hot-rod the living piss out of it, you won't run into any deal-ending problems.

If you're not stuck on the 300 Norma, the .300 PRC is a standard magnum bolt face. I went the PRC route with a long barrel and have had really good initial results in a Nucleus.

 

[mcfred]

If the pressure is kept low, it'd be fine with 300 Norma. You're just working with less steel and much thinner safety margins. There's not much material between your face and 8 tons of white-hot fire. If you want to be cavalier with your own safety that's your prerogative, but you'd be subjecting others in your proximity to your gamble as well. I'd wager there are analogous cartridges to the .300 Norma that use a safer .535" rim.

 

[b6graham]

If the pressure is kept low, it'd be fine with 300 Norma. You're just working with less steel and much thinner safety margins. There's not much material between your face and 8 tons of white-hot fire. If you want to be cavalier with your own safety that's your prerogative, but you'd be subjecting others in your proximity to your gamble as well. I'd wager there are analogous cartridges to the .300 Norma that use a safer .535" rim.

300 PRC as mentioned by ledzep

 

[Rust]

You want to use a receiver with less safety margin to save a few bucks have at it. Keep in mind Stiller does not sell such an action, their .338 Tac action is larger diameter and has a larger bolt. for safety.

 

[JustaJetJock]

Thanks to all who have responded to my post, you all have convinced me of what I was afraid of in the first place.

That I could do it, but it would be questionable as to how safe it would be.

Guess I'll just have to save $ for a while longer.

 

[Precision Underground]

I built a 300 on a 700 action and it's a hammer. Remington has been making 338s on the action for a long, long time. Can anyone point to the number of failures of such 338s? Surely if this was an issue someone would have been blown up by now and remington would have been sued into oblivion. The small rim left on the bolt face is irrelevant. Forces are directed straight back on the bolt, not at the edge of the bolt face. If we want to talk about lug thickness or something then let's have that conversation but the bolt face is not relevant. If the lugs were an issue Remington would not make 338s on the action.

 

[b6graham]

Thanks to all who have responded to my post, you all have convinced me of what I was afraid of in the first place.

That I could do it, but it would be questionable as to how safe it would be.

Guess I'll just have to save $ for a while longer.

are you super set on the 300 Norma versus 300 PRC?

 

[Winny94]

are you super set on the 300 Norma versus 300 PRC?

Ive never understood why the 300 PRC is compared to the 300 Norma. DIfferent class of cartridges (despite what hornady marketing says)

 

[b6graham]

Ive never understood why the 300 PRC is compared to the 300 Norma. DIfferent class of cartridges (despite what hornady marketing says)

comparing the 225 ELDMs, which there is a lot of data for in the 300PRC and 300NM threads, the 300PRC gets within 100fps of the 300NM 2900 vs 3000 seems about normal, with some people getting RL26 over 3k in the PRC

ability to use more common actions with a standard magnum boltface versus a lapua boltface

we're only talking 2-5 gr more H1000 in the norma

 

[Huskydriver]

Ive never understood why the 300 PRC is compared to the 300 Norma. DIfferent class of cartridges (despite what hornady marketing says)

I have no personal experience yet with the prc, but claims guys are making with their prc's are almost as fast as my 300 Norma loads.

 

[Winny94]

comparing the 225 ELDMs, which there is a lot of data for in the 300PRC and 300NM threads, the 300PRC gets within 100fps of the 300NM 2900 vs 3000 seems about normal, with some people getting RL26 over 3k in the PRC

ability to use more common actions with a standard magnum boltface versus a lapua boltface

we're only talking 2-5 gr more H1000 in the norma

isnt it funny how we throw around 100 fps like its nothing or everything depending on the narrative?

 

[b6graham]

isnt it funny how we throw around 100 fps like its nothing or everything depending on the narrative?

100 fps max. with some cases being equal fps.

pretty good trade to add dozens of actions to the list of what you can use

 

[Ledzep]

With 10 grains less powder. It's not a direct replacement, but the PRC certainly bridges the gap between Winchester and Norma magnums.

P.s. all velocities are also dependent on the pressure they're running at. Not really fair to call one caliber at 63ksi and another at 70. But usually, apples to apples with pressure and barrel length, the Norma is 100fps or less ahead of the PRC. At 2000+ yards it doesn't pencil out to much. A little, but a "slow barrel" could be the same difference.

 

[Huskydriver]

isnt it funny how we throw around 100 fps like its nothing or everything depending on the narrative?

Most loads I have seen are off by 30 fps... Talking less than 7" of drop diff at 1k. Can you shoot the diff?

Again only citing what guys are posting for their 300 prcs.

 

[mcfred]

Remington has been making 338s on the action for a long, long time. Can anyone point to the number of failures of such 338s?

1. This is a simple matter of calling Stiller and asking if it should be done. I bet they'd tell you to get the Tac338 action.

2. Under normal conditions, modern materials used in a Rem M700 type design are totally capable of holding 440M Pascals of pressure, I got no argument there. It probably won't be too pretty when someone leaves a cleaning rod in the bore or has some other obstruction, cooks some hot Corbon ammo on a sunny dashboard outside Phoenix, or grabs the wrong powder when reloading. That's when you might suffer the thinner safety margins. Nobody gives a shit when things are going great. When shit hits the fan is where you start caring about the safety margins.

3. Regarding Remington and their potential liability for .338 Laupa M700s, They're not liable if you use handloads, modify anything on the gun (e.g. thread the muzzle) or if a KB's from operator error (cleaning rod/obstruction). You're only supposed to shoot factory ammo. If you lose your face or a hand using factory ammo, then it's the ammo manufacturer's liability assuming the Rifle didn't suffer from a manufacturing defect. It'd still be little old you vs a billion dollar corporation and their pack pf lawyers to prove anyone's fault but your own.

There are not many Rem 700s in .338 Lapua in the wild. They're not terribly practical, they're expensive to buy and to feed and so the overall number of failures are low. I'd like to think that people who know what they're doing are the ones buying them. But we've all seen this. Sure, it's a Savage, not a Remington, or a Stiller, but the design is nearly the same. .700" bolt diameter, 90˚ rotating 2-locking lug design on a 1.350" receiver. I would not say that it handled excessive pressure of an obstructed bore "gracefully." The pictures show the result of a few pieces of schrapnel that could have easily killed a bystander.

So, don't fuck up and your Stiller .300 Norma will be fine. If you do fuck up you'd better have your insurance policies paid up.

 

[Precision Underground]

1. This is a simple matter of calling Stiller and asking if it should be done. I bet they'd tell you to get the Tac338 action.

2. Under normal conditions, modern materials used in a Rem M700 type design are totally capable of holding 440M Pascals of pressure, I got no argument there. It probably won't be too pretty when someone leaves a cleaning rod in the bore or has some other obstruction, cooks some hot Corbon ammo on a sunny dashboard outside Phoenix, or grabs the wrong powder when reloading. That's when you might suffer the thinner safety margins. Nobody gives a shit when things are going great. When shit hits the fan is where you start caring about the safety margins.

3. Regarding Remington and their potential liability for .338 Laupa M700s, They're not liable if you use handloads, modify anything on the gun (e.g. thread the muzzle) or if a KB's from operator error (cleaning rod/obstruction). You're only supposed to shoot factory ammo. If you lose your face or a hand using factory ammo, then it's the ammo manufacturer's liability assuming the Rifle didn't suffer from a manufacturing defect. It'd still be little old you vs a billion dollar corporation and their pack pf lawyers to prove anyone's fault but your own.

There are not many Rem 700s in .338 Lapua in the wild. They're not terribly practical, they're expensive to buy and to feed and so the overall number of failures are low. I'd like to think that people who know what they're doing are the ones buying them. But we've all seen this. Sure, it's a Savage, not a Remington, or a Stiller, but the design is nearly the same. .700" bolt diameter, 90˚ rotating 2-locking lug design on a 1.350" receiver. I would not say that it handled excessive pressure of an obstructed bore "gracefully." The pictures show the result of a few pieces of schrapnel that could have easily killed a bystander.

So, don't fuck up and your Stiller .300 Norma will be fine. If you do fuck up you'd better have your insurance policies paid up.

What do you think would have happened if the action in the article would have been a stiller 338? The same thing would have happened. It looks to me like the savage action did fine. It was the barrel/chamber that blew up. The lugs held and the barrel blew out of the side.

And if you are choosing your action based on the thought that you may shoot it with a cleaning rod shoved down the barrel, maybe you should choose something thicker than a stiller 338. Because at that point you are shooting a pipe bomb, not a rifle. That is going to blow out any set up. If that's the only example you can find, I rest my case.

There are thousands of remington 338s in the wild and they have been sold for years.

 

[mcfred]

Like I said, don't fuck up and you'll be fine. Unfortunately, people do fuck up and I prefer to err on the side of caution. I hope you don't have to experience what some of these other unfortunate people have. That's all.

 

[Ledzep]

Aye, with proper design a lot of the damage can be mitigated. Apples to Oranges but my thoughts drift towards the ARC video where Ted touched off a full power 300 WSM round with a cleaning rod in the barrel and everything besides the extractor held together pretty respectably. 300 WSM does not equal 338 Lapua so it's a moot point, kinda maybe? Certainly a topic that drifts into the grey zone of how wrong does a guy have to go and where's the cutoff of tolerable ignorance and liability...

 

[Precision Underground]

Like I said, don't fuck up and you'll be fine. Unfortunately, people do fuck up and I prefer to err on the side of caution. I hope you don't have to experience what some of these other unfortunate people have. That's all.

Again, 0.2" more metal on the action is not going to stop it from blowing out the barrel if you fire a round with a cleaning rod in the barrel. That's like saying to always wear a soft hat when driving in case you fall asleep and hit a semi head on. It still not going to save you from stupidity.

 

[mcfred]

That's obviously directed at me, so what do you want me to say? Go play in traffic for all I care. I'm not your mother.

 

[Ledzep]

Head on with a semi truck is one thing. Smart car vs. F250 for general impacts is another.

 

[Holland375]

I have build 338's RUM, 338 Lapua, 300 PRC's, 300WM and 300WSM. If loaded with "normal published loading data", it has been my experience that they have had high pressure signs without hitting max charges in the following order from showing signs sooner.
338 Lapua, 300 PRC, 300wSM, 338 RUM and 300 WM. With factory ammo they show signs without exception and they follow the same order. None have been lab tested and brass has been what is available. What is high pressure for me? Brass flow, hard extraction, pierced primers excessive webb expansion. All of my observations are on different days too. Very subjective. I have build all of the test rifles. Again my experience.
My choice, for safety, without a doubt would be a 300WM. If I do need bigger a 338 RUM loaded conservatively. Need bigger or more energy go to the 375's. A case failure is really ugly and it can happen with any cartridge, but it is specially ugly with the big ones. A catastrophic failure? Don't want to be arround.