know .308, 300win mad and 338 are used as sniper rifles but I never hear about 6.5 creedmoor guns being used....why???
- Thread starter stradibarrius
- Start date
I believe SOCOM is working on it already. You can't just pick a new caliber with "better" ballistics and run with it. It has to be approved and like I said, SOCOM is currently working on that, at least that's what I hear.
Good info ...thanks
We were able to convince our team's command to let us switch over to 6.5 a little over a year ago. We had all our AI and GAP 308's re-barreled and have been loving it. Our city is on the South Texas coast and have windy days 7 days of the week, so it was easy for us to use the external ballistics of the 6.5 vs the 308 to get them to approve it.
SOCOM is buying 6.5CM KAC SR25 uppers so....
USSOCOM Adopts 6.5 Creedmoor | Soldier Systems Daily
Last Spring, USSOCOM undertook a study of 6.5 family cartridges to determine a path forward for Precision Intermediate Caliber Ammunition. Over the last yea ...
soldiersystems.net
I know a certain group of Sierra’s in tx that successfully convinced the brass to move from .308 to 6.5 cm
Pretty sure some .mil groups had been using .260 for years and I’m sure some are using 6.5cm
Eric,
Could you advise what ammo your team adopted for duty use?
Are you using a 2 round system, (open air and barrier)?
We are openly fighting any moves by L.E. to leave the .308 for any 6.5.
In a nut shell, the 6.5 has no mission specific ammunition choices (yet) and the external ballistics are almost identical until you get past 400yds.
Interested in why they left the .308.
Thanks in advance.
T.
./
Sorry to get back to ya'll late, spent the weekend axis hunting and have been battling the flu since coming back.
Yeah I'm apart of the team from So Tex that went to 6.5. And so far it's been great. We shoot the Hornady 147 ELD-M TAP ammo and it's been a huge improvement in external ballistics compared to the Federal Gold Medal Match 168's. While the majority of our engagements might be within 100 yrds like most agencies, we occasionally have situations were we're over watching an area of a couple hundred yards, (like our current protests) and being on the coast, we consistently have wind 20 mph+ and gusts up to 40 some days. Anyone who's shot down at Rifles Only can agree, the wind down here is nothing to under estimate.
So like I said we're currently using the 147 Tap ammo, and have been working with Hornady on getting a heavier solid copper round developed for duty use. They sent some of their 120gr GMX rounds to try, and they work great against barriers with targets at varying distances behind the barrier, the only issue we have is the 27gr difference between the 120's and the 147's, so the point of aim and point of impact are greatly different. So its currently not something we can interchangeably use in the field, especially at any longer distances.
The only major disadvantage we're found, is the barrel round count. Before, with the 308's, we never really know how many rounds were on the barrels due to having the rifles since the early 2000's and the many guys that came on the team and left, and took that info with them...but they rifles continued to shoot accurately as AI's known to do. But now we're having to keep more accurate and current round counts for the barrels, since the barrel life of the 6.5 is significantly less than the 308, and when peoples lives are on the line, any degrade in accuracy is a huge liability to the team and city.
Hope this helps some,
Eric
Yeah I'm apart of the team from So Tex that went to 6.5. And so far it's been great. We shoot the Hornady 147 ELD-M TAP ammo and it's been a huge improvement in external ballistics compared to the Federal Gold Medal Match 168's. While the majority of our engagements might be within 100 yrds like most agencies, we occasionally have situations were we're over watching an area of a couple hundred yards, (like our current protests) and being on the coast, we consistently have wind 20 mph+ and gusts up to 40 some days. Anyone who's shot down at Rifles Only can agree, the wind down here is nothing to under estimate.
So like I said we're currently using the 147 Tap ammo, and have been working with Hornady on getting a heavier solid copper round developed for duty use. They sent some of their 120gr GMX rounds to try, and they work great against barriers with targets at varying distances behind the barrier, the only issue we have is the 27gr difference between the 120's and the 147's, so the point of aim and point of impact are greatly different. So its currently not something we can interchangeably use in the field, especially at any longer distances.
The only major disadvantage we're found, is the barrel round count. Before, with the 308's, we never really know how many rounds were on the barrels due to having the rifles since the early 2000's and the many guys that came on the team and left, and took that info with them...but they rifles continued to shoot accurately as AI's known to do. But now we're having to keep more accurate and current round counts for the barrels, since the barrel life of the 6.5 is significantly less than the 308, and when peoples lives are on the line, any degrade in accuracy is a huge liability to the team and city.
Hope this helps some,
Eric
Did they not make a 140 GMX? I was under the impression they did, they should have sent that instead of the 120. Anyways, maybe you guys could try specifically requesting that one for now???
At the time, they did not offer a 140 GMX, and I just checked the Hornady website again so I don't give out bad info, but it appears they still don't offer anything in the GMX line heavier than the 120's for the 6.5. The Hornady rep we were working with told us that they were working on developing a heavier, GMX TAP ammo, but there was no release date for it at the time.
Our LE team will be sticking with 308. Based upon one specific point. The NY AOR I'm in seems insane about documented uses of force, and record of use.
There is no benefit to 6.5 over 308 when our average shot is like 60 yards. ( Total of 2 in 40 years) The dept doesn't want change.
We definitely talk about it all the time, just don't see it happening.
Wait ...don't forget BUDGET. Covid and RIOTS have us against the wall. Just getting the minimum amount of ammo for training will be a challenge.
I'm thinking like a bake sale, or one of those Bachelor auctions but for snipers. Speedos and Ghillie's anyone??
There is no benefit to 6.5 over 308 when our average shot is like 60 yards. ( Total of 2 in 40 years) The dept doesn't want change.
We definitely talk about it all the time, just don't see it happening.
Wait ...don't forget BUDGET. Covid and RIOTS have us against the wall. Just getting the minimum amount of ammo for training will be a challenge.
I'm thinking like a bake sale, or one of those Bachelor auctions but for snipers. Speedos and Ghillie's anyone??
At least on the USASOC side, the way things seem to be evolving is:
For General Purpose .308WIN --> 6.5Creedmoor
For Long Range .300WM --> .300NormaMag
For Hard Target Interdiction .50BMG --> .338NormaMag
A lot of .308WIN barrels are being retained for "cheap accessible ammo" purposes for now. The head scratcher for me personally is the last one. Mk211 was a game changer, and while .50BMG is still a bear to shoot regularly (and hump/jump), it's hard to compete against a bullet with payload capability like that against hard targets. But it sounds like they've come up with a good HTI-oriented .338 bullet that will perform well enough (I would assume it's some combo of AP and payload). That means you can still have a LA sized rifle to fit the broad spectrum of mission requirements.
For General Purpose .308WIN --> 6.5Creedmoor
For Long Range .300WM --> .300NormaMag
For Hard Target Interdiction .50BMG --> .338NormaMag
A lot of .308WIN barrels are being retained for "cheap accessible ammo" purposes for now. The head scratcher for me personally is the last one. Mk211 was a game changer, and while .50BMG is still a bear to shoot regularly (and hump/jump), it's hard to compete against a bullet with payload capability like that against hard targets. But it sounds like they've come up with a good HTI-oriented .338 bullet that will perform well enough (I would assume it's some combo of AP and payload). That means you can still have a LA sized rifle to fit the broad spectrum of mission requirements.
Right before all this insanity and cop hating we did get some 338s and RUAG Imported API. I have no clue how they let this purchase slip by, but it's a welcome asset.
Police will never be at the forfront in this arena. Budget...budget...budget. Gunna run them 308s till they qualify as muskets lol.
Police will never be at the forfront in this arena. Budget...budget...budget. Gunna run them 308s till they qualify as muskets lol.
Our city has been working with us luckily and when we made our yearly big ammo purchase for the department, instead of 308 we just ordered 6.5. And re-barreling our older rifles wasn't too hard to get approved by the bean counters, when you compare a new barrel vs a whole new rifle. I think we re-barreled 2 GAPs, 2 AIAE's, 1 AIAW, and now all our new AIAT's are coming from Mile High in 6.5. All this has been a process over the last 3 or 4 years so it wasn't a huge drop all at once.
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