Is it "bad" to not have a gas vent on an action? Especially a custom?

[RidiculousMetacarpus]

Hey, im sure maybe half of the answers ill get is "Youre fine". But im asking anyways because A. i want to here what the other 50% say, and B. like to learn new things. I did google search keyword gas port or gas vent + snipershide and came up with nothing.

Have a Stiller tac 30 / PTG B23, it's finished and so on, just need glass. Gonna be a while for that unfortunately.

I noticed that many actions, including factory 700s, have what appears to be a gas port/vent on the side directly behind the chamber, i suppose in the rare instance that they have an overcharged case or some other sort of catastrophic thing, with the intent of preventing injury to the shooter or even preventing damage to the action (this is what my intuition tells me atleast).

My question is: is it true (beyond the theoretical level) that a gas vent or port has actually helped to protect the integrity of an action/bolt/etc, or protect the shooter in the rare instance of such an incident? Or is this just a fad option people ad "because why not"? If it's the former, then why did Stiller decide not to add such an easy 5 minute job on what amounts to a $850-900 custom action?

Im not griping about my build, i love this thing so far even though i havent even shot it yet. But it makes me question things regardless.

Added pics for reference:

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[308pirate]

Mausers don't have that little hole. They have a big ass flange on the cocking piece where it meets the back of the bolt to redirect gas to the sides before it hits you.

Howas don't have that little hole. They have three holes on the OD of the bolt body that face down when the bolt is closed to redirect gas down through the magazine.

Point: there's more than one way to skin the pressure relief cat. Maybe Stiller's done something about it that's not obvious to you?

 

[RidiculousMetacarpus]

Mausers don't have that little hole. They have a big ass flange on the cocking piece where it meets the back of the bolt to redirect gas to the sides before it hits you.

Howas don't have that little hole. They have three holes on the OD of the bolt body that face down when the bolt is closed to redirect gas down through the magazine.

Point: there's more than one way to skin the pressure relief cat. Maybe Stiller's done something about it that's not obvious to you?

I figured atleast as much. Now im curious, does a fluted bolt have any effect on gases escaping in a way similar to the alternatives you described? I'd have a hard time believing the answer is no.

 

[308pirate]

I figured atleast as much. Now im curious, does a fluted bolt have any effect on gases escaping in a way similar to the alternatives you described? I'd have a hard time believing the answer is no.

Bolt flutes are only there for decoration. They serve no other purpose.

If you have a hard time believing that they are useless as a gas flow control method, then I would love to hear your explanation.

 

[RidiculousMetacarpus]

Bolt flutes are only there for decoration. They serve no other purpose.

If you have a hard time believing that they are useless as a gas flow control method, then I would love to hear your explanation.

Well, shit. *Goes to check bolt*

 

[308pirate]

Go check it. You'll notice that flutes lead to nowhere. They begin and end between the bolt head and the bolt handle.

 

[spife7980]

If you have a tight fitting bolt the flutes do allow a place for grit to go which can help eliminate binding when it gets dirty. So it's not for cosmetic only, just mainly lol.

the only way I know of to find out why the designer choose the choices he did is to call them. Report back with what they say.

 

[Ledzep]

Certainly not a new "fad"...




The real problem is that you don't need it until the case fails, and when the case fails, there's a huge range of possibilities (case defect? case head separate? Primer blew? loaded with H110 instead of H1000? Sabotaged Indian 7.62x51mm ammo with high explosive instead of gunpowder? cleaning rod in the barrel? What load, what caliber, what action, what condition etc. etc.?) so it's hard to say exactly how much it helps you or doesn't really matter.

 

[davere]

I believe (but may totally be wrong) that the TAC 30 vents gas like Stiller's Spectre action, and that mechanism is described in this RECOIL magazine article... http://www.recoilweb.com/rem-700-custom-actions-109106.html

 

[striker nz]

after seeing the effects of a rifle that vented in to the magwell, Im not certain Id want that to happen.
and thats saying something considering I own multple howa's

 

[308pirate]

after seeing the effects of a rifle that vented in to the magwell, Im not certain Id want that to happen.
and thats saying something considering I own multple howa's

Show us, please

 

[MTFalconer]

Bolt fluting actually serves a few purposes. LOOKS of course but also weight reduction and decreased surface area contact making the action smoother. A lighter bolt cycles faster and looks good doing it.

 

[LRI]

Ok, 1: Fluting a bolt does not make it run smoother. It just doesn't. The bolt and action relationship is a bearing. A "plain" bearing if we want to be technical. Function relies on surface area and the more the better in all truth. This is how your car runs. Crank, Rods, and block. They all interact the same way. Most camshafts do as well. I doubt your engine would work better if I fluted the crank journals.

Fluting the bolt will make the gun a smidge lighter, but the gains are less than the weight of a Snicker's bar in your pocket. I personally find it a bit mute, but whatever.

Fluting by and large does not make a bolt run better in a dusty climate. The jury is still kind of out on that conclusively. Some have done a few tests on this and feel that leaving it alone is better. It's subjective I guess.

What I have seen fluting do is improve a gun in arctic environments. Go up into the Tetons or Crazy Mountains not too far from here and keep the rifle in the truck with the heater on. Now your out in the woods and you have snowfall. It melts then freezes on the rifle as it comes back to negative whatever outside. Now run the bolt. It's about like a fat girl jumping off the roof to get into tight pants.

The fluting will act as a meat grinder to break up the ice chunks and get the thing working again.

I ran into this very thing with a client years ago on a custom action. We cut the flutes deeper and it went away.


As for fluting acting as a gas check? They don't. Believe what you wish. Sneeze a case and hope you don't end up in the ER with the doc picking parts from your face. I've been there and done that. It sucks.

An action should have a gas check. Be it either a hole up in the receiver ring or holes drilled in the bolt. (or both) Most receivers have the hole too small. The pressures at work here are not trivial and they will tear you up if given half a chance. I have a very, very healthy respect for this stuff after suffering an orbital fracture and torn retina a few years back. The rifle blew the bolt right out the back of the receiver. The shroud put a fist size hole through a Pelican case 10' behind me and shop lights got peppered with small stuff 30' feet away.

Be careful...


C.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Ok, 1: Fluting a bolt does not make it run smoother. It just doesn't. The bolt and action relationship is a bearing. A "plain" bearing if we want to be technical. Function relies on surface area and the more the better in all truth. This is how your car runs. Crank, Rods, and block. They all interact the same way. Most camshafts do as well. I doubt your engine would work better if I fluted the crank journals.

Fluting the bolt will make the gun a smidge lighter, but the gains are less than the weight of a Snicker's bar in your pocket. I personally find it a bit mute, but whatever.

Fluting by and large does not make a bolt run better in a dusty climate. The jury is still kind of out on that conclusively. Some have done a few tests on this and feel that leaving it alone is better. It's subjective I guess.

What I have seen fluting do is improve a gun in arctic environments. Go up into the Tetons or Crazy Mountains not too far from here and keep the rifle in the truck with the heater on. Now your out in the woods and you have snowfall. It melts then freezes on the rifle as it comes back to negative whatever outside. Now run the bolt. It's about like a fat girl jumping off the roof to get into tight pants.

The fluting will act as a meat grinder to break up the ice chunks and get the thing working again.

I ran into this very thing with a client years ago on a custom action. We cut the flutes deeper and it went away.


As for fluting acting as a gas check? They don't. Believe what you wish. Sneeze a case and hope you don't end up in the ER with the doc picking parts from your face. I've been there and done that. It sucks.

An action should have a gas check. Be it either a hole up in the receiver ring or holes drilled in the bolt. (or both) Most receivers have the hole too small. The pressures at work here are not trivial and they will tear you up if given half a chance. I have a very, very healthy respect for this stuff after suffering an orbital fracture and torn retina a few years back. The rifle blew the bolt right out the back of the receiver. The shroud put a fist size hole through a Pelican case 10' behind me and shop lights got peppered with small stuff 30' feet away.

Be careful...


C.

How did the bolt miss your face? Were you pressure testing a load and touching it off remotely or something..?? Thanks for chiming in sir!

 

[LRI]

The bolt didn't miss my face, why I had an orbital fracture and torn up eyeball. I was test firing the rifle in our cell. I lifted my face off the cheek piece at the last second. That random act saved my life. Literally. I am not nearly as tough as a Pelican case, lol.

The best we can come up with is a jag came off the cleaning rod. One of the guys patched the gun. (new barrel) and he went to grab a bite for lunch. It was crunch time for a big match (Sniper's Hide Cup, 2014) and we were hustling to make a delivery. I asked if it'd been patched and went for it. - I never actually looked down the barrel to ensure it was clear. A mistake I will certainly not ever make again, nor will anyone else in my shop as I've become a Nazi about it.

 

[waterboygn]

I'll call bullshit dixon. First of all, your "jag theory" is getting a little old by now and I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who is getting sick of your "orbital fracture retina" story. You like to share that one quite a bit don't you? I'd appreciate if you would quit saying "one of the guys patched the gun" That is bullshit and you know it. The truth is.... NOBODY patched it. You also certainly never asked anyone if it was patched. You hastily shot a gun that had just come out of Cerakote which still had the silicone plug in the muzzle. The tape on the crown (with the hole through it) was a dead give away. END OF STORY.

 

[308pirate]

I'll call bullshit dixon. First of all, your "jag theory" is getting a little old by now and I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who is getting sick of your "orbital fracture retina" story. You like to share that one quite a bit don't you? I'd appreciate if you would quit saying "one of the guys patched the gun" That is bullshit and you know it. The truth is.... NOBODY patched it. You also certainly never asked anyone if it was patched. You hastily shot a gun that had just come out of Cerakote which still had the silicone plug in the muzzle. The tape on the crown (with the hole through it) was a dead give away. END OF STORY.

 

[striker nz]

Show us, please

sorry I can't didn't take pictures but it was not a pretty sight, Id prefer not to say too much just yet on a open forum

 

[JMGlasgow]

Someone has an axe to grind...

 

[brianf]

back to vent holes anyone?

 

[NateVA]

I'll call bullshit dixon. First of all, your "jag theory" is getting a little old by now and I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who is getting sick of your "orbital fracture retina" story. You like to share that one quite a bit don't you? I'd appreciate if you would quit saying "one of the guys patched the gun" That is bullshit and you know it. The truth is.... NOBODY patched it. You also certainly never asked anyone if it was patched. You hastily shot a gun that had just come out of Cerakote which still had the silicone plug in the muzzle. The tape on the crown (with the hole through it) was a dead give away. END OF STORY.

 

[spife7980]

back to vent holes anyone?

Theres no going back from where we have gone.
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Also, again, no one here is qualified to tell you what the designers had in mind when they did so, youll have to contact them with your concerns if you want a real answer. Report back with what they tell you.

 

[RidiculousMetacarpus]

Well that escalated.

Brb, not worrying about it.

 

[RidiculousMetacarpus]

Here is the reply i got from Stiller:


"There isn’t one answer as it depends on where the case ruptures [if it actually does breach], if there is an obstruction in the barrel or if the round [bullet] is larger than the bore on the barrel. So most will go down the barrel [unless obstructed] as it is largest hole, it may go down the magwell and some may go down the bolt raceway. We have a drawer of over pressured actions [pistol powder vs. rifle, cleaning rod in barrel, etc.] and we’ve never had one rupture or come apart."

 

[Xander3Zero]

Here is the reply i got from Stiller:


"There isn’t one answer as it depends on where the case ruptures [if it actually does breach], if there is an obstruction in the barrel or if the round [bullet] is larger than the bore on the barrel. So most will go down the barrel [unless obstructed] as it is largest hole, it may go down the magwell and some may go down the bolt raceway. We have a drawer of over pressured actions [pistol powder vs. rifle, cleaning rod in barrel, etc.] and we’ve never had one rupture or come apart."

Unfortunately I don't think that is that good of an answer. I am actually having a 223 built on a Stiller Tac 30 currently, and I'm not worried about the quality or safety of the action, but to say that you have a drawer of over pressured actions that have never come apart, does not necessarily mean that the action safely redirected the gas away from the shooter during the event.

I'm not at all questioning the safety of the design or the guys over at Stiller, but I would guess that it's just a difficult question to answer given the amount of variables involved. Like Stiller mentioned it will depend on where the case ruptures or what the surrounding circumstances are that lead to the over pressure event.

 

[Ledzep]

No one is going to guarantee their stuff will hold together or keep you from getting hurt, and especially in this industry it's pretty much impossible to guess what circumstances are going to be present. You've got -20 to 140 degree temp range, tens of factory ammo manufacturers, each with different lots/components, thousands of reloaders producing who-knows-what, the whole gamut of dust, dirt, snow, debris, maintenance cycles, etc... No telling what kind of stock or magazine well is going to be implemented, or barrel profile... So when a failure occurs, bore obstruction, tired case lets go, new case has a defect, etc. etc... How do you plan around it? The action is probably one of the stronger parts present, but where does the gas go? Totally depends; with a light enough barrel contour, maybe the barrel will burst and frag the stock, or else maybe it vents into the magazine well and throws loaded rounds, springs, etc. at mach 0.4. It's just so violent and dynamic and random-- very difficult to quantify to say if a couple holes is going to save someone from (more) injury or not.


For NateVA and JMGlasgow, All that glitters is not gold. I wasn't there for the orbital incident but I did learn all I ever needed to know about "transparency". If you care to look a little under the surface you'll see a steady stream of former employees on less than good terms in the wake. Think what you want but I have a hard time believing someone finds 9-10 worthless assholes in a row. Lying to employees and customers creates the axes you see ground every so often. At some point one might think the employees might not be the problem. At least they're on-the-books employees now from what I've heard, not shoved off to file self-employment so the owner can shirk taxes, workman's comp etc. Several years worth of backed W2's for others who've moved on, too, from what I've heard. Stretches of the truth and glossing over gets old after a while. I remember being especially pissed after being fed false information that I passed onto (potential) customers. That's my name and my word getting fucked with. So you have an understanding where the frustration comes from. The customer doesn't usually see it, and obviously all that gets presented on the internet is the fancy cool stuff...