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Is it my press or my die? .009 runout

B

bodywerks

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 19, 2010
1,683
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49
Tucson,Arizona
Let's see if I an make this short and sweet.
Lee turret press.
Started with factory new lapua brass within .001 on my Sinclair concentricity gauge. I quickly learned that expander balls or expanders of any sort kill concentricity so they have been long gone (were adding .003-.004 of runout).
Resizing with a rcbs $30 full length die added a thou of runout +/-. Its not my go to die. I only got it to FL size the brass as recommended prior to neck turning.
I neck turned a piece of brass on a k&m turner and then resized and runout was right at .001. I'm fine with that.
Here's where it got weird. I seated a bullet and case runout stayed at around .001-.0015 but runout a the ogive was .005 and halfway between that and the tip of the bullet was at .009"???
I'm not happy.
So is it the press, the die, or technique? Bullet seater is redding standard but with the micrometer added. I get the bullet started, turn a quarter, seat 3/4 the way, turn another quarter, finish seating then rotate half and give a final press.
I'm thinking its the seater, but the press I know isn't the best for precision.
Fwiw, this is a 260 cartridge an 140 amax bullet.
 
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Probably press or die. Put a O ring between the lock ring on the die body and the press, and another between the locking nut on top of the seating stem. Adjust the dies to seat at the OAL you want, and tighten the locks down moderately firmly, allowing a bit of float. Try that. May be the press is shifting a bit too.
 
A buddy of mine swears by the Lee Collet Dies

Lee Collet Dies - Lee Precision

bodywerks said:
Let's see if I an make this short and sweet.
Lee turret press.
Started with factory new lapua brass within .001 on my Sinclair concentricity gauge. I quickly learned that expander balls or expanders of any sort kill concentricity so they have been long gone (were adding .003-.004 of runout).
Resizing with a rcbs $30 full length die added a thou of runout +/-. Its not my go to die. I only got it to FL size the brass as recommended prior to neck turning.
I neck turned a piece of brass on a k&m turner and then resized and runout was right at .001. I'm fine with that.
Here's where it got weird. I seated a bullet and case runout stayed at around .001-.0015 but runout a the ogive was .005 and halfway between that and the tip of the bullet was at .009"???
I'm not happy.
So is it the press, the die, or technique? Bullet seater is redding standard but with the micrometer added. I get the bullet started, turn a quarter, seat 3/4 the way, turn another quarter, finish seating then rotate half and give a final press.
I'm thinking its the seater, but the press I know isn't the best for precision.
Fwiw, this is a 260 cartridge an 140 amax bullet.
Click to expand...
 
among all, I own a Lee turret and some RCBS dies_nothin'wrong with them but, if/when I'm really searchin'for concentricity, I've learned to forget using my Turret (too much plate slop) and stayin'away from my RCBS dies_ that's my experience about them_
said that, see if the seater's inner cup allow the correct engagement of the ogive (without touching the bullet's point) painting some bullet with a felt-tip marker_ deepening &polishing the inner of the cup can help_
that could also depend from a defective (bent) seater's stem, and you could verify that placing it against a machinist steel ruler,or a piece of glass_ really,I think that generally the weak link is in the stem's factory threading: readed that sometime a little o-ring,inserted around the outer,threaded, portion of the stem,between the upper seater die surface and the lower surface of the stem's stop nut could help,allowing for some kind of (theorical?)floating
 
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I had the same problem as you and I was using the Lee Turret Press. If you watch the plate that holds the dies as you size/seat you can see it rise up away from the press. Just as wilecoyote said, there is a lot of slop in it. I can't say for certain that the press caused this but I noticed that when it came time to trim cases that on some of them the cutter would only cut one side, like that side was growing more due to the slop in the press.

It really bothered me and I was certain that trying to reload accurate ammo in this thing was a waste of time and components so I tried to think of a way to fix it (I was 17 or so at the time and money was really tight, buying a new press was out of the question). I first tried to shim in between the press and the plate but I couldn't get that to work. The only way I could think to fix it was to cut two pieces of metal, one that goes on top of the die holder plate and one that goes under it, then I drilled three holes in each and bolted them together (going through the holes in the plate that are used to hold the other dies) to keep this from happening. It doesn't look great and it's now a single stage press (which defeats the purpose of a turret) but it did take out all of the slop until I could order a new press. It has worked well enough for me since then I just live with it and if I ever want to turn it back into a turret press (for pistol ammo) I just unbolt the two pieces of metal and put that bar that rotates the plate back in.
 
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Yeah, I tried the shimming deal on the press as well, but only during the resizing process. It didn't do much for resizing as far as case runout but this was before I realized the expander was the real culprit.
I do think it hurts the bullet seating process, though, at least with this non competition seater. The case fits loosely in the seater so as the bullet is pressed against the stem it lifts the turret plate and starts the runout process.
Both of these presses were borrowed from a good friend years ago so its time I get my own anyway. I'm pretty sure its the press...
 
No press can induce bullet run out. All a press can do is push cases into and pull them out of the dies.

The slack in Lee's turret system insures the turret can turn easily, the early upward movement stops - hard - when it's supposed to.

There's no value in tightening dies into a prees with a wrench, Forster's excellant Coax has the loosest die retaining system on the market, no threads at all, to prevent users from doing that. And the dies float vertically too.

If a bullet starts tilted it will stay tilted. No 'part way down and turning for the rest of the way' can correct that, seater stems are too loosely fitted to do much.

Runout usually comes from bent necks and that rarely comes from a sizer. Bent necks can be induced by varying brass thickness, soft spots, excessive down sizing/up expanding, or excessive "neck tension" - bullets make lousy expanders and necks being too tight demands excesive force when seating so tilting WILL be induced during initial entry.
 
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It's your seating die. You've sized and checked, it's good. You've turned and checked, it's good. There is too much room in your seating neck. You might go to a Wilson "In-line" seater.

The other thing it could be is bullet deformation. If you have .001" runout at both the top and bottom of the neck then the only place left to look is at the ogive. Pressing too hard on a bullet to get it to go into the neck might deform it. Or, it might just not be concentric as it came out of the box.

Added: You might rethink turning down Lapua Brass. It's pretty good to start with. Turning it down may be the reason you are getting too much room in your seating neck?
 
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Is it possible I need a vld seating stem for the 140 amax bullets? They are a hybrid type of bullet and I notice a little wobble with them in the seating stem. I have a 308 comp seating die. I might just try to order a 260 seating stem for it...
 
yes,sir: I think could be possible_ by the way,if you're absolutely in turret presses and you don't mind about the price, Harrel would be the way to go_ (on Zediker's "Reloading for Competition" book you for sure could find about that better explainations than mine)_
 
Ok. Now I'm noticing a new problem. My chamber fired lapua 338 brass has under .001 runout. I then run it through my redding FL competition bushing die with a .365 nitride bushing, and no expander, and i now have .003-.005" runout. What gives?
FWIW, the die was loosely threaded into the press (jamnut not tightened) and the bushing was also allowed to float a little.
Frustrated. I am fully convinced that this runout is the source of my lack of accuracy in my rifles! I say this because factory new lapua brass always produces sub half MOA groups, then reloads don't reproduce the accuracy.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
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Mr. Bodywerks, sir, with all due respect, take one of the turret plates for your Lee, and put it in there. Now wiggle the plate side to side and in a rotary motion... You see the VISIBLE amount of movement in there? That's nearly 100 thousandths of SLOP in your loading process, or +/- .050 if you want to be technical (assuming your Lee is only as sloppy as mine, and not more so from longer or harder use).

You live a charmed life if you're only getting 9 thou of runout in your loads. Hell, depending on your rifle, your chamber is actually fixing some of the eff-up to your brass caused by your press, as you're shooting. The Lee turret presses are designed for guys loading bulk .223 and 9mm, NOT anything remotely resembling consistent long range ammunition.

To be blunt, what the eff are you doing with a bottom-end turret press if you can afford rifles like the one in your signature? Go to a pawn shop, pay $75 bucks for a used RCBS RCII and your problems will, in all likelihood, disappear. If you're feeling randy, get a NEW one (gasp)... The extra 30 seconds per loading session you require to change dies will be meaningless given the grin on your face as your high-dollar rifles finally do what they're supposed to...

Honestly, I'm not hating on you, I'm just shocked to hear you grouching that a press designed to spit out SHTF 9mm as fast as you can pull the handle isn't giving multi-thousand dollar rifles the ammo diet they deserve. If I still had my second RCII, I'd send it to you. Seriously, go buy a used single-stage press from Hornady or RCBS and watch your groups shrink...
 
Content deleted. Too much opinion here, mine would just contribute even more.

I just hope that somewhere in all of this, someone considers actually testing the effects of the runout on the specific rifle's actual performance.

Sometimes the discussions here remind me of medieval clergy arguing the occupancy limits for angels dancing on the heads of pins; i.e., some points are pointless, like considering tight concentricity limits for SAAMI chambers.

Greg
 
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Gregg: "Sometimes the discussions here remind me of medieval clergy arguing the occupancy limits for angels dancing on the heads of pins; i.e., some points are pointless, like considering tight concentricity limits for SAAMI chambers."

Yep. Ditto presses. And dies by brand. And neck sizing. Etc.

I've been doing this since '65 and still haven't learned nearly as much as some of our self appointed "experts" who have been at it a whole 4-6 years, or less, and have never properly used a dial indicator on a press or much of anything else.
 
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Greg Langelius * said:
Content deleted. Too much opinion here, mine would just contribute even more.

I just hope that somewhere in all of this, someone considers actually testing the effects of the runout on the specific rifle's actual performance.

Sometimes the discussions here remind me of medieval clergy arguing the occupancy limits for angels dancing on the heads of pins; i.e., some points are pointless, like considering tight concentricity limits for SAAMI chambers.

Greg
Click to expand...

Would have liked to hear your opinion, honestly.
In my personal experience, and in some reading I've done, runout is a key component of group size. Brand new brass loaded concentric has produced the tightest loads in both my rifles. After resizing and reloading, with runout, the groups open upHeck, i believe someone posted an article in this thread where the author blatantly states ".000-.002 will yield 1/2"or better, .003-.006 will be sub MOA", etc.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
Lee collet die and Redding competition seating die. The Redding competition seating die will run you around $100 but worth every penny if you're chasing runout. The Redding die holds the case while seating the bullet in as close to perfect as possible. I'd spring for a better press someday too but if you're using a Lee turret press then, like me, funds are short but the biggest bang for your buck would be the Redding seating die.
 
MontanaHick said:
Mr. Bodywerks, sir, with all due respect, take one of the turret plates for your Lee, and put it in there. Now wiggle the plate side to side and in a rotary motion... You see the VISIBLE amount of movement in there? That's nearly 100 thousandths of SLOP in your loading process, or +/- .050 if you want to be technical (assuming your Lee is only as sloppy as mine, and not more so from longer or harder use).

You live a charmed life if you're only getting 9 thou of runout in your loads. Hell, depending on your rifle, your chamber is actually fixing some of the eff-up to your brass caused by your press, as you're shooting. The Lee turret presses are designed for guys loading bulk .223 and 9mm, NOT anything remotely resembling consistent long range ammunition.

To be blunt, what the eff are you doing with a bottom-end turret press if you can afford rifles like the one in your signature? Go to a pawn shop, pay $75 bucks for a used RCBS RCII and your problems will, in all likelihood, disappear. If you're feeling randy, get a NEW one (gasp)... The extra 30 seconds per loading session you require to change dies will be meaningless given the grin on your face as your high-dollar rifles finally do what they're supposed to...

Honestly, I'm not hating on you, I'm just shocked to hear you grouching that a press designed to spit out SHTF 9mm as fast as you can pull the handle isn't giving multi-thousand dollar rifles the ammo diet they deserve. If I still had my second RCII, I'd send it to you. Seriously, go buy a used single-stage press from Hornady or RCBS and watch your groups shrink...
Click to expand...

Lol! You do have a point. The press isn't even mine! A friend of mine that stopped reloading gave it to me. While i do agree that a new press should be in my future, the inner workings of the die itself(FL sizing dies in particular. I'm now talking case runout, not bullet runout) could care less how straight the case begins to enter it. By the time the case is 2/3 the way in it will have already aligned itself to the inner workings of the die, and once fully inserted it will have taken on whatever shape the die tells it to. It could care less about slop in a turret at this point. And from what I've read, a lot of guys with even the best presses induce slop in their die installation process, either by not tightening the jamnut or by putting an o ring between it and the die.
Case in point. I took one of my pieces of brass that i FL bushing sized that yielded the .004 case runout and immediately put it in my $30 rcbs FL die(on my turret press), with expander, and case runout was reduced to .001.
Now, bullet seating dies and turret presses are a different story, but i switched to a competition bullet seater and it helped.
I did manage to load some break in rounds for the rifle in my signature that were all .003 or less bullet runout(mostly less). I only shot two groups with it (one 3 shot and one 4) after break in, but both were well under 1/2". I contribute it in part due to concentric loads
ubyrytu6.jpg
te7azame.jpg


PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
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kansas said:
Lee collet die and Redding competition seating die. The Redding competition seating die will run you around $100 but worth every penny if you're chasing runout. The Redding die holds the case while seating the bullet in as close to perfect as possible. I'd spring for a better press someday too but if you're using a Lee turret press then, like me, funds are short but the biggest bang for your buck would be the Redding seating die.
Click to expand...

I have the comp seater for both my 338(with vld stem) and just recently for my 260. I'm going shooting next weekend and am staring at 300 cases, some new and some resized so I'll be getting some practice!
zenunusu.jpg


PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
sandwarrior said:
Added: You might rethink turning down Lapua Brass. It's pretty good to start with. Turning it down may be the reason you are getting too much room in your seating neck?
Click to expand...

Maybe not. Have found that while Lapua brass is very good, it is not perfect. Measured some neck wall thicknesses to vary as much as 0.002" on the same case. Lapua brass, turned necks, Lee collet neck sizing die & Redding body die, and Forster seating die give an average run out of 0.001". A few around 0.002", some less then 0.001".

OFG
 
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A little update. Curiosity got the best of me so i went ahead and loaded 5 rounds from the factory 260 brass using the new competition seater. All i did was run an expander through the neck and chamfered the inside. They were between .003 and .006 bullet runout. not bad for factory. The resized ones i went up to a .293 bushing from a .292 and chamfered the inside a little more than usual. I got them down to .002 on average. I'll take it!
FWIW, this was on the turret press and without shimmng it or clamping it down.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
Whats your neck tension look like on the brass with bad runout? I had some 300 blk brass someone made for me that had like .010 neck tension (way too much) and the bullets never seated concentrically. I ran them through a ball that gave them .002 neck tension and my issue went away.

I usually run .001-.002 neck tension these days and never have runout worth worrying about.
 
My opinion is that I share my own opinion far more than may be wise. It tends run against the grain of a lot of folks who have a lot of learning and only the best of intentions. While perfection is a laudable goal, it is also a cruel taskmaster, and often serves no real purpose.

The issue here is context.

We are talking ammo, where it is only one of several critical components in the pursuit of accuracy. Tight ammo specs are meaningless in a rifle with SAAMI chamber specs. The SAAMI specs are loose and forgiving and are that way for very good reason. Busting a gut making exquisitely precise ammo for them is directly analogous to tossing pearls before swine. Such rifles will ingest such ammo and rarely render noticeably better performance than plain old store-bought match ammo; the likes of which can be diligently loaded on a progressive press using standard 2-die F/L resizing die sets.

They can't.

For such purposes, the chamber is not the key to accuracy, it's the rest of the barrel and its harmonics that hold the key means to rendering full accuracy potential. Good load development; based on sound and diligent but uncomplicated cartridge assembly is the means by which best performance can be made to match potential. The rest, while gratifying from an intellectual standpoint, may not bear suitable fruit.

Of all the rifles I own, only one currently wears a barrel with a non-factory SAAMI chamber. This is probably the only rifle I own which could give a dang about concentricity; and personally, right now, it's about impossible to get hold of the bullets it favors.

These days, issues like concentricity do not weigh heavily on my handloading efforts, and seldom cost me any sleep. My own personal nemesis is neck tension.

Greg
 
Both rifles I'm reloading for are custom barreled. One is a Krieger chambered in 260 Remington with a custom free bore(throat extended .060). And the other is a bartlein chambered in 338LM using a 338tacmatch reamer. In my opinion they deserve the most precise ammo I can feed them. In my experience with them they don't shoot as true with crooked ammo. Sure, I could probably hit the kill zone on big game at 500 yards pretty consistently, but hunting is a secondary interest for me when it comes to my rifles and the importance of accuracy and consistency. I want to KNOW that my rifle is dead nuts accurate so that I will know it was me and only me that made or missed a target. I am always shooting for groups. I enjoy it. I don't enjoy it when I don't know if a crappy group was me, my rifle, or my ammo.
I'm not a benchrest shooter but I have respect for what they try to achieve. And if you know a single one of them that doesn't think concentric ammo is important I'd like to meet them and see all their first place plaques achieved with crooked ammo.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
I think that in your context, your practices make perfect sense.

I, too, have put a lot of time into imitating BR handloading practices. I think you can also understand my frustration when all my rifles, (factory rifles, the best I could afford back then), demonstrated blatant and proper indifference to my utmost efforts.

It took a lot of objectivity to force myself to face the main source of the problem; the more I tried, the more adamantly my rifles refused to shoot better (beyond a basic response to properly made, rather than painstakingly made ammo). Believe me, all I was doing was undermining my own faith in my own marksmanship skills. Unfortunately, substituting proven good shooters did not make enough difference to help.

I began to think the problem was the guns. It was but it wasn't either, the real problem was the expectations. The rifles were doing quite well for what they were, but they were never going to be BR guns, and they were never going to break through into BR gun performance zones.

Where building BR grade ammo was concerned, all I was really doing was spinning my wheels, and getting nowhere fast. So I built a better gun, it shot a better target, and it finally rewarded my efforts to build better ammo My other rifles performed as well as ever despite a major simplification of my handloading practices on their behalf.

My point here is to try and spare some up and coming handloaders from unneeded frustration.

issues like concentricity, etc., have their place. I think I've adequately defined the differences involved.

Also, I don't think we've even touched on the areas of personal marksmanship skills and discipline. Some will say one can't have them without good ammo and equipment, but personally, I think the skills come first, and may be best learned from a very basic 22LR and good, but not excessively great ammo.

I would even go so far as to say that using a refined custom rifle and ammo for basic marksmanship skills training may be a misuse of valuable, perishable resources. In times like these, I think that lesson carries even more weight.

Some are lamenting the shortages of .22lr ammo right now. Some are likewise considering that a lack of proper preparation of the parts of some does not constitute an emergency on the parts of others.

Greg
 
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Well I haven't even checked my ammo for crookedness since 1999. I never won a 1000yd BR match with straight ammo. Since I sold all them damn gadgets and quit benchrest my shooting has never been better. Fairly confident that my 30-06 could win a 1000yd BR match now, and I have no idea what the run out is on any of the ammo I use in that rifle. It has shot .5 MOA at 1000yds, plenty good to win a relay at a 1000BR match some days. I don't own cheap tools, and I will leave it at that. I am not emotionally invested in feeding my rifles what they deserve. My rifles cost a hell of a lot of money, they OWE ME, not the other way round. Squeezing another inch at 1000yds means almost nothing unless you HAVE to shoot the smallest group of the match. There are no points for style. Edge hits on steel are just as good as center hits. If BR is your thing, then hang out and talk to BR guys. Applying BR techniques to tactical style shooting leaves you a lot less time to actually shoot. I am just one of those sloppy reloaders, who believe playing white coat lab geek in the loading room, is for guys who shoot 20 shots at a piece of paper and call that a fine weekend. I can make these statements because I have played the lab geek. I just decided a long time ago that shooting is much more fun, and as a result, as I already said, my shooting has never been better.
 
armorpl8chikn said:
Well I haven't even checked my ammo for crookedness since 1999. I never won a 1000yd BR match with straight ammo. Since I sold all them damn gadgets and quit benchrest my shooting has never been better. Fairly confident that my 30-06 could win a 1000yd BR match now, and I have no idea what the run out is on any of the ammo I use in that rifle. It has shot .5 MOA at 1000yds, plenty good to win a relay at a 1000BR match some days. I don't own cheap tools, and I will leave it at that. I am not emotionally invested in feeding my rifles what they deserve. My rifles cost a hell of a lot of money, they OWE ME, not the other way round. Squeezing another inch at 1000yds means almost nothing unless you HAVE to shoot the smallest group of the match. There are no points for style. Edge hits on steel are just as good as center hits. If BR is your thing, then hang out and talk to BR guys. Applying BR techniques to tactical style shooting leaves you a lot less time to actually shoot. I am just one of those sloppy reloaders, who believe playing white coat lab geek in the loading room, is for guys who shoot 20 shots at a piece of paper and call that a fine weekend. I can make these statements because I have played the lab geek. I just decided a long time ago that shooting is much more fun, and as a result, as I already said, my shooting has never been better.
Click to expand...

What you have going for you is experience, and a lot of it. I'm sure your reloading technique is such that doing everything right comes naturally. I've been at the reloading game for only a few years, and only off and on. I hope to have your level of experience and knowledge some day, truly. But for now i will continue to question my every technique.
FWIW, it seems that a combination of reducing neck tension by going up to a .293 from a .292, changing to a competition bullet seater, and chamfering the neck a smidge more has helped considerably - 78 of my 80 reloads last night had .001" or less bullet runout at the ogive.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
I think that what you're doing now rather closely mirrors my own handloading practices from a decade or more ago. It's an essential part to understanding what works, when and why it doesn't work, when and why it does. It's how we develop judgment and confidence in our craft.

Since then I've developed a sense of judgment that weighs effort against it benefits, and makes tradeoffs that concede small accuracy benefits in favor of a more shooting oriented allocation of time and other resources. My criterion is adequate accuracy where absolute accuracy is not absolutely essential. I believe that in time, you will reach a similar conclusion, especially when advancing age prompts one to begin rationing one's time in a more economical manner. On occasion, however, I sometimes wish I'd spent less time nitpicking at the loading bench, and more time at the shooting bench.

8chikn's viewpoint mirrors my own, but for some applications, i.e. competitive shooting, I still do things like weighing charges and getting my cases clean inside and out.

IMHO, the place where factory ammo falls down is in its charge weight consistency and sometimes in its components quality. Just pulling, reweighing and reseating some factory ammo has reaped quite significant accuracy benefits for me.

For my serious needs (F Class at 250yd), simply developing a good load, then assembling it with diligent attention to consistency, especially in areas like charge weight, has rendered performance that removes the equipment from the forefront of my accuracy challenge.

Greg
 
Thanks Greg. Yeah, I'm gonna be showing of these two rifles to my hunting buddies this weekend while camping, so i just want to make sure i got everything going for the rifles. If i know I'm just going to be hitting 1-2 MOA steel targets or whatever i don't think I'd be so picky.
I have a 6 inch gong that i want to hit cold bore at 500 yard with the 260 and a 10" gong at 1k with the 338 so i need all the help i can get!
Thanks...

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
I only use the expander on factory new brass to loosen up the neck and make them all a bit more consistent. I checked runout before and after and it stats within a thousandth.
I full length size. I don't like a sticky bolt and while i get that most bench rest guys only neck size i have to draw the limit somewhere, at least with the 260. I'll experiment with neck sizing only on the 338 as i don't plan on a lot of sequential fire with it.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
bw,

On your once-fired brass, have you tried cleaning the necks with 4-0 steel wool? Usually helps.

HTH,
DocB
 
"...with all due respect, take one of the turret plates for your Lee, and put it in there. Now wiggle the plate side to side and in a rotary motion... You see the VISIBLE amount of movement in there? That's nearly 100 thousandths of SLOP in your loading process,"


With all due respect, that 's total BS and I can't stand to let it go uncorrected any longer.

Fact is, IF there's enough slack in any press system to allow it, the case itself will insure absolutely perfect self alignment in the dies. Consider the amount of 'side to side slop' in a set of BR hand dies used in an arbor press! All a tight press/shellholder/die alignment can bring to the table is a bent case unless everything else is absolutely perfert. And it seldom is.

Bad dies and bad cases make for runout. You obviously have no idea of what's required for precision machining for rifle chambers and ammunition. No custom gunsmith cuts chambers with a rigid tool holder; they use very costly floating tool holders so the reamer can follow the bore accurately. Our loose "floating" case or press/die holders have the same precision alignment potential for reloading.

Runout usually comes from bad necks, not bad presses, all the press does is push the cases into and out of the dies. Bushing dies aren't the 'cure all many think, a lot of people get some pretty bad runout from them. For SAAMI chambers, a lot of prople prefer Lee's collet neck die along with a body die.
 
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I agree with your sentiment on free play in presses actually helping with sizing die alignment, but I'm not so sure about bullet seating dies benefiting from the play of a turret press. Granted, i just got done loading some 275 rounds of 260 and 338 ammo and at least 250 of them were .002 runout or less, only a few with .005 or more, and the rest around .003-004. But of the good ones hardly any of them were perfect. I can't help but wonder if the tilt induced in the turret once the seating stem bottoms out on the bullet actually induces a misalignment.
On the lee collet dies, i get why one would prefer them, but i don't like the lack of a positive stop feel when it comes to squeezing down the neck. It seemed like i had to press unusually hard...bushing dies are effortless. And the lee dies would leave jaw marks on my necks.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg
 
bw,

Use the 4-0 around a smaller brush than the case neck inside diameter and use as the last step before setting the bullets. Should have made this clearer. This is an old BR trick, Victor in TN gets my credit for the suggestion on SH.

HTH,
DocB
 
A couple of suggestions here:

(1) Go to a good single stage press and forget the turret press. Expecting good long range performance and match grade ammo from a turret press oriented toward high volume production of "reasonably good" ammo is like entering your reasonably good stock VW bug in the Indy 500.

(2) If a bullet is pushed into a case cockeyed, it will likely wind up measuring a lot of run out. Getting the bullet in there CORRECTLY (that is so say STRAIGHT) is the seating die's job (the designs vary here as to how they do that) and you will have to evaluate the die you are using and probably find a better die if you want the end result to be more concentric.

(3) The more case neck tension created when you seat a bullet (due to the case neck being way too much undersized for the bullet's OD), the greater the chances that as SOMETHING has to give (usually the brass, huh) and the end result is that the bullet does NOT wind up being "centered" as well as it should be. Another possibility is that the case necks are not consistent in thickness as you measure them in 3 or 4 different places around the neck. Bullets that go into a PROPERLY CHECKED/PREPARED case neck very easily (but not too easily or you will have problems with the bullets being pushed further in or being pulled out somewhere along the way, sometime) will generally give good, concentric results. Depending upon your likes/dislikes and how far off of or in contact with the rifling you like to seat bullets (and what your rifle likes), sometimes seating just lightly enough to retain the bullets in the cases and letting the bullets be pushed back into the case will give good group results, and usually means that the bullets will be sort of pushed a little around (radially) as they are seated more deeply as the round is chambered, adjusting it to just where the rifle "wants or likes" it. This technique CAN make a rifle/cartridge more accurate and be less onerous as to concentricity when loading, BUT..CAUTION...often if the cartridge is removed from the chamber without having been fired, the bullet will be stuck in the rifling and will be pulled out of the case as the case is extracted from the chamber!!! So...I say CAUTION...CAUTION..when using this technique as it can createa VERY HAZARDOUS situation sometimes!!!!!:eek:

A second CAUTION is that a bullet that is already somewhat into (or against) the rifling can give higher than expected pressures when that same round is loaded with the bullet a few thousandths off of the rifling!!

(4) Though this may have been written about somewhere here (I didn't read ALL replies in detail) what happens if you shoot your handloads in a different rifle? What happens if you take rounds known to be good and compare the groups of a couple of different rifles, TO INCLUDE yours? Granted, concentricity IS IMPORTANT, but what to you see in the groups when shooting both VERY concentric and not so concentric rounds in different rifles?

Sometimes what appears at first blush to be the problem really is not it.......
 
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