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Suppressors Who can ask for papers?

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Gawd, 6 pages. I cant believe this is still going. Well, actually given the mentality of some of you, I guess i *can* believe it...

Funny think is, I went back and re-read all my posts just to be sure, but I never said I have ever contacted ANYONE at the range to verify proper paperwork. I said I *could* given the proper motivation.

Despite your misconception, my responsibility as a PO doesnt fall to zero just because I'm off duty, however I rarely ID myself as a PO off duty. Its nobody's business. However if you muzzlef&ck me while youre shooting on the range I'll probably say something to you whether I ID myself or not. Wouldnt you?

Same concept , if I see a serious violation of the law I'm likely to do something. I think all you card-carrying 'sheepdogs' would too.

Its pointless to debate on the internet because of the whole keyboard commando mentality. At the end of the day, if a uniformed LEO asks you for your Form 4, you'll provide it because you wont risk the consequences. End of story.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

CJ, Umm.... we're on page 4. But anyhow, chances are someone will eventually refuse, it will go to the courts and they will decide just as in the case Mschloss shared with us.

That being said, you can no longer reasonably argue your point now that you have reduced your comments to name calling.

Have a nice day.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Maybe your settings are differnt, mine shows 7 pages.

And where exactly was the name calling??
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

CJ,

For what it's worth, I believe a lot of the confusion, especially on my end, has to do with the fact that Texas law appears to be different from most of the rest of the country. In Texas, NFA items are illegal until proven legal, to the best of my understanding in this thread.

For the rest of us, unless I completely misunderstand, NFA items are not illegal or banned. If I remember the case with the National Firearm Act, the BATF tried to ban automatic weapons, but it was determined to be unconstitutional. They did the next best thing they could, and prohibitively tax the transfer $200, a large sum of money at the time. While writing it, they decided to throw in suppressors, SBR's, etc.

So, if I am still understanding, when I buy a suppressor I am not paying for the right to buy something otherwise illegal, I am paying a required federal transfer tax. This is where a lot of misunderstanding comes into play. Suppressors are not banned or illegal, they are taxed. And in MY State, unless I am missing something, I don't have to show proof of anything to a police officer, only an ATF agent. And if it turns out I am in possession of a non tax transferred suppressor, the actually charge is tax evasion, correct?

-Bob
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Same concept , if I see a serious violation of the law I'm likely to do something.</div></div>

I think this sentence is what has many here questioning your judgment. If an NFA owner is legal, he is legal. You can't tell just by looking at him. There is no violation of the law taking place. I can think of a lot of activities that 'might' be illegal but you can't tell just by looking at a person.

Without a better reason than just how someone looks you are opening yourself up to scrutiny by the legal profession. If you don't think so then I suggest you keep on your current course and attitude. Someday one of the two will catch up to you. The person you choose to harass at the range just might be another LEO who is tired of attitudes such as yours and one of your own may be the very source of your troubles.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Oh my god you guys can overthink a wet dream...

I have "way" too many suppressors, I travel with them all over the country, all over the state, and there is not a day I am not at the range without a suppressor. Wrap the can in the paperwork and move on down the road.

Even flying with them, and yes I have flown with "just" my suppressors as I used to bring them back and forth to TX as I had rifles down there already... NOBODY asks you to see anything, NOBODY questions the paperwork, and having owned my suppressors since 2004, I have yet to be questioned regarding my ownership and believe me I have more than most of your dealers. 20+

They don't care, they are not looking to hem you up, and even TSA has taken to moving on down the road in regards to them.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its pointless to debate on the internet because of the whole <span style="font-weight: bold">keyboard commando mentality</span>. At the end of the day, if a uniformed LEO asks you for your Form 4, you'll provide it because you wont risk the consequences. End of story. </div></div>

Maybe its not direct name calling but its a sign that you are at the very least unwilling to see things from the point of view of myself and other law abiding NFA owners. We could argue semantics for a month and it won't mean a thing until the courts decide.

Bottom line is the taxpayers don't like being harassed. Maybe due to the fact that we are speaking through an online forum I can't tell whether or not you're a decent person/LEO but from my current perspective you don't seem to really care too much about decent people as much as you care about exercising your power.

As I stated before, I could be wrong.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Had my suppressor for years. Have shot at Tac-Pro, Rifle's Only and several other places in Texas. I have never been asked for my papers. I would not have an issue showing my papers if asked. There has never been a situation when law enforcement should have asked for my papers. That said, any sensible person should address the issue if someone is acting stupid at a gun range whether he/she has a suppressor, sbr, or a loaded lollipop and NOT because said person has a suppressor, sbr, or a loaded lollipop. All weapons are dangerous. I am in law enforcement. I believe in doing my job to the best of my ability and I also believe in treating people the way I would like to be treated. Respect works both ways. And as old inmate on a jail-chain told me, "Don't mistake my kindness for weakness".
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh my god you guys can overthink a wet dream...

I have "way" too many suppressors, I travel with them all over the country, all over the state, and there is not a day I am not at the range without a suppressor. Wrap the can in the paperwork and move on down the road.

Even flying with them, and yes I have flown with "just" my suppressors as I used to bring them back and forth to TX as I had rifles down there already... NOBODY asks you to see anything, NOBODY questions the paperwork, and having owned my suppressors since 2004, I have yet to be questioned regarding my ownership and believe me I have more than most of your dealers. 20+

They don't care, they are not looking to hem you up, and even TSA has taken to moving on down the road in regards to them. </div></div>

like.jpg
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

How about i call you guys a name, <span style="font-weight: bold">paranoid drama queens</span> just looking for a reason to be pissed off instead of moving on with your life.

Stop sweating the little things and playing <span style="font-style: italic">"what if"</span> games in your heads, you'll live longer.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Ladies and gentlemen, move along please, there's nothing more to see here.
grin.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about i call you guys a name, <span style="font-weight: bold">paranoid drama queens</span> just looking for a reason to be pissed off instead of moving on with your life.

Stop sweating the little things and playing <span style="font-style: italic">"what if"</span> games in your heads, you'll live longer. </div></div>You sir: The guy with the suppressor and the attitude. Yes: YOU. Could you stand over here for me please, I'm afraid I will need to see some paperwork.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gawd, 6 pages. I cant believe this is still going. Well, actually given the mentality of some of you, I guess i *can* believe it...

Funny think is, I went back and re-read all my posts just to be sure, but I never said I have ever contacted ANYONE at the range to verify proper paperwork. I said I *could* given the proper motivation.

Despite your misconception, my responsibility as a PO doesnt fall to zero just because I'm off duty, however I rarely ID myself as a PO off duty. Its nobody's business. However if you muzzlef&ck me while youre shooting on the range I'll probably say something to you whether I ID myself or not. Wouldnt you?

Same concept , if I see a serious violation of the law I'm likely to do something. I think all you card-carrying 'sheepdogs' would too.

Its pointless to debate on the internet because of the whole keyboard commando mentality. At the end of the day, if a uniformed LEO asks you for your Form 4, you'll provide it because you wont risk the consequences. End of story. </div></div>

Yeah everyone elses mental state is off because we don't agree with you. And when someone eles questions your LEO status, "it's none of their business" !?(do you even read the crazy stuff you're typing? lol)

That right there is some real narcissistic shit. The need to constantly assert yourself over others is pretty insecure behavior. I'm sure someone will have your badge because of it someday.

Ever consider the possibility YOU are wrong? Lol have fun doing your "duty" harassing people for their papers. Maybe you could get a job with the ATF and really fuck gun owners.

Seriously though, I see what you are and I'm done trying to talk since into you.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Lemme get this straight...

You can spell 'narcissistic', but you can spell 'sense'? hmmm

This has been a semi-interesting discussion. Everybody's got an opinion. There are a few 'paranoid drama queens'. Nothing got solved. Typical internet.

Im out.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was going to stay out of this, but having dealt with many cops and know a couple as "friends". Truer words have never been spoken. They talk in riddles and shit just to watch you stumble. </div></div>

Nod. Don't talk to cops. Ever. Especially when they're trying to "help" you.

The days of them having your best interests at heart are over. Trust me, I have them in the family.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lemme get this straight...

You can spell 'narcissistic', but you can spell 'sense'? hmmm

This has been a semi-interesting discussion. Everybody's got an opinion. There are a few 'paranoid drama queens'. Nothing got solved. Typical internet.

Im out. </div></div>

Can't attack the message, attack the messenger...
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lemme get this straight...

You can spell 'narcissistic', but you can spell 'sense'? hmmm

This has been a semi-interesting discussion. Everybody's got an opinion. There are a few 'paranoid drama queens'. Nothing got solved. Typical internet.

Im out. </div></div>

Your perception of nothing getting solved on the typical internet is due to the fact that on the internet you are not a cop. I'm sure if this conversation were to exist in your jurisdiction I'm fairly confident something would get solved. It would probably involve a "ride" that we "can't beat".

It's not about being paranoid; it's about burden of proof, jurisdiction, and mutual respect. Everytime I have an experience such as the one in this thread my preception that <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> LEO's are overbearing is reinforced. I know this isn't true but you sure are doing a great job of convincing me that it is.

But hey, that's life. I'm going to take Franks advice and worry about something else such as load development for my .260.

I'm out too.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

The paranoid douchebaggery level is at an 11 here. Some people are just going to find a reason to be mad at the world I guess. And if you're mad at the world, it's likely because of the cops.

FTP.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I stop you on traffic and ask for your driver's license, which is proof that you can legally oparate a motor vehicle, it constitutes a 'shakedown for your papers'??

Its the same kind of inquiry </div></div>

I think this is exactly what the debate is centering around.

A LEO does not pull every driver of a vehicle he sees over even though enforcing traffic laws is part of his job. Under normal conditions, he does so when there is evidence of that vehicle being operated in an illegal manner.

I think what people are upset about would be analogous to being pulled over and asked for the proper paperwork just because you are driving.

I don't understand completely about the legality or constitutionality of this issue and don't think there are many outside of the legal profession that would.


 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The paranoid douchebaggery level is at an 11 here. Some people are just going to find a reason to be mad at the world I guess. And if you're mad at the world, it's likely because of the cops.

FTP. </div></div>

Exactly. If you disagree with me, then you are "mad at the world" and your viewpoint cannot be taken seriously. Just comply, and everything will go easier for you.

If it weren't for those paranoid douchebag Founding Fathers being mad at the world, we'd still be under a monarchy.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

So the thinking is,

you own a suppressor and think it means an automatic paper check ? Is that the idea of those who are questioning this ?

And the evidence of this being a common practice is what ?

Do Police Officers patrol your range lying in wait for shooter to show up with a suppressor ?

Seriously, what is the thought process here ?
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

In the extremely unlikely event that you find yourself in this situation of being checked I would have to say don't be stupid by picking unnecessary fights. Present and be done with it.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Well, if you're from a state like mine, where a suppressor is a "Weapon of Mass Destruction"... It might be hard to convince the range know-it-all that your possession of said WMD is completely legal. There's no guarantee that the LEO(s) who respond when know-it-all calls the police, are any more knowledgeable about it. The question seems more or less how to educate or inform the LEO(s) without spending time in cuffs or a holding cell.

You would think being polite and offering a thorough explanation is the common-sense answer, but apparently the world is full of types who get their kicks from telling LEOs to pound sand.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO.
You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.
</div></div>


You would get run off most ranges here with your heavy badge.

Who are you without your badge? Take a minute to think what your life would be like if you got fired. No badge.

Suppressors and machineguns are legal. Unregistered ones are not.

Cars are legal. Stolen cars are not. Are you going to run everyone's license plates @ the range too?

Maybe you are used to the Police State you live in. Pushing folks and corralling them may be SOP for you.

Get over yourself.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...

That is my PC when asking for BATF paperwork. And our local BATF agents, who I know on a first-name basis, are 20 minutes away if a subject refuses to show paperwork.
Sirhr </div></div>

Apply to become a ATF AGENT before you overstep your bounds with the wrong guy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
What I find interesting is windermike et al's hostile reaction to my post... when I tried to make it clear that I am a huge fan and supporter of legal C3 and DD ownership. While at the same time being committed to help prevent illegal ownership of the same items.
Sirhr </div></div>

Think about the above and your response.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
If you wanted to tell me to do something anatomically impossible and refuse to show paperwork because you are trying to prove some point or automatically think I am an enemy... things would not be so genial. Because you would go from fellow-enthusiast to suspect/perp/potential felon in a microsecond.
Sirhr </div></div>

Nobody likes a nosey range rat. If you are frequenting ranges where there are illegal guns, maybe you should find somewhere else to shoot. I hope you are in unifrom when you go about your paper checks and have an ATF Agent with you. Starting shit with someone without probable cause is asking for trouble. Because when the guy kicks your ass, for unlawful arrest, anything after that is fruits of the poisonous tree and he will own your ass in court. Civilally and on the trumped up criminal charge.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
That said... We're On The Same Damn Side!!!!
Sirhr </div></div>

No


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
Hostile attitudes towards your Allies... that doesn't do any of us any good!

Cheers,

Sirhr </div></div>

I do not think folks are hostile towards you. You just present yourself as a heavy badge that would turn them in for speeding to the range. Not someone to hang out with.

Who would you be without a Badge?

I think you got into LE for the wrong reasons.

Most of us here abide by the law no matter how odd they may seem. We certainly do not need an ATF wanna be wondering around the range taking up valuable time checking papers.

Kinda like going over to someone's house to eat and asking for the receipt where they paid for the silverware.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jheat308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fine line is you oversteping your power. Not to sound smug but Why do you feel the need to ask for papers anyway SniperCJ? </div></div>

Hey if youre Joe Blow and your stuff looks to be production items, I likely wouldnt ask. If your suppressor looks like a coffee can arrangement and youre dressed like a militia member, well,you know.

Profiling? Yeah probably, but Ill ask anyway. or at least I'llmake a phone call to someone in uniform who will ask. </div></div>

Sorry to see you feel this way. Apparently there is a fuzzy line with a lot of LE when Civil Rights are in question.

To me, a line is a line. It is a thin line. There is no hash mark leading up to it. The line is clear. The lady holding the scales has a blindfold on for a reason.

Most of the folks I have seen on ranges, especially Sniper matches, wear Mil garb.

Check one, check them all.

Not sure why LE have such a fascination with NFA stuff. A 12 GA. will kill you deader than anything else just as good.

When ATF checks stuff without actual actionable probable causeis their job. It is ok. It is the law to show papers to them.

While you flatfoots are out checking suppressor paperwork, most likely 20 DUI drivers drive by the range. More folks die from DUI.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I finally got my suppressor and went to the range to try it out. Before I even got on the range I asked if it was ok to shoot suppressed weapons. The girl behind the counter said yes, and wanted to see my papers. I showed her and was on my way. I never gave it another thought until this thread. Next time I guess I will tell her no and see what happens. Will let ya'll know. This thread has been entertaining.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigearn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I finally got my suppressor and went to the range to try it out. Before I even got on the range I asked if it was ok to shoot suppressed weapons. The girl behind the counter said yes, and wanted to see my papers. I showed her and was on my way. I never gave it another thought until this thread. Next time I guess I will tell her no and see what happens. Will let ya'll know. This thread has been entertaining.
</div></div>

If you have to show your paperwork everytime you go to the range, find a new place to go. They are not LEO or ATF..... tell them to piss off.

As Frank said, stop sweating the small shit. I am so thankful I had the land to build my own range. Now all the LPD guys call me to come shoot, I am going to start asking them for their paperwork when they show up.
wink.gif
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> At the end of the day, if a uniformed LEO asks you for your Form 4, you'll provide it because you wont risk the consequences. End of story. </div></div>

What would the consequences be? What are you going to do when I do not show you my paperwork after you have bothered me while I was minding my own business and you do not have a Federal Agent with you? And all I did was possess a legally obtained item that you happened to see when I laid it out on my bench. Just like when I bought my Vehicle and registered it.

My response to you will be "NO, you are wasting my time here on this range, go find someone else to menace. I am a law abiding citizen"

WWCJD?

Check one, check all.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> At the end of the day, if a uniformed LEO asks you for your Form 4, you'll provide it because you wont risk the consequences. End of story. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">What would the consequences be?</span> What are you going to do when I do not show you my paperwork after you have bothered me while I was minding my own business and you do not have a Federal Agent with you? And all I did was possess a legally obtained item that you happened to see when I laid it out on my bench. Just like when I bought my Vehicle and registered it.

My response to you will be "NO, you are wasting my time here on this range, go find someone else to menace. I am a law abiding citizen"

WWCJD?

Check one, check all.

</div></div>
Wow,
reading comprehension here sucks.
1) Know your state regulations.
2) In the unlikely chance you are approached by a law enforcement officer, it is most likely in response to a call. They have an obligation to check it out.

Once again, in Texas, you would be subject to arrest because possession is a felony.

I'll tell you what, all of you hairy chested manly men take you "federally approved" NFA item to a public range in California and tell the cop to fuck off.
Let me know how that works out for you.

What's that you say? It's different because they are illegal in Cali?

No, it really isn't different, they are illegal here in Texas, too.

WWJCD?
Probably tell you that discretion is the better part of valor.

Better yet WWBBD?
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> At the end of the day, if a uniformed LEO asks you for your Form 4, you'll provide it because you wont risk the consequences. End of story. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">What would the consequences be?</span> What are you going to do when I do not show you my paperwork after you have bothered me while I was minding my own business and you do not have a Federal Agent with you? And all I did was possess a legally obtained item that you happened to see when I laid it out on my bench. Just like when I bought my Vehicle and registered it.

My response to you will be "NO, you are wasting my time here on this range, go find someone else to menace. I am a law abiding citizen"

WWCJD?

Check one, check all.

</div></div>
Wow,
reading comprehension here sucks.
1) Know your state regulations.
2) In the unlikely chance you are approached by a law enforcement officer, it is most likely in response to a call. They have an obligation to check it out.

Better yet WWBBD? </div></div>

I agree with you, and would show and move on with a formal complaint to several high up Personnel.

Better things to do than battle it out with a heavy badge in court or otherwise. My point was me being on the range and just because I have a suppressor some cop feels obliged to check my papers. Not a call for service.

Officers have the responsibility to assure probable cause and enforcement of the law equally. As soon as you start using verbiage like "Probably profiling", that is not equal enforcement of the law.

CJ said he would check mil clothed wearing subject, but would pass on a more normal looking person. Hell, that fits most people here when they go to the range.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I'd say I spent 30 minutes wasting my fucking time reading all this shit but I did learn something regarding Texas law. I will show my papers and not be a dick about it. I'd rather do that and go back to shooting than create unneeded BS.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I think that mutual respect and manners go a long way in Texas, or any other state for that matter. I really like the old inmate's quote "don't mistake my kindness for weakness" That says a lot.

I would probably react differently if some aggressive non-uniformed person asked me for my papers.

O well off to Vung Tau Vietnam, a communist country for my BIL's wedding. I hope all is well in the greatest country in the world when I return, damn I love the USA.

FREEDOM!!
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you. Thats all I was trying to say </div></div>

No, that wasn't what you were saying.

You were saying shut up and respect my authority....show me your papers!!!

You actually said you would enjoy arresting me.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Officers have the responsibility to assure probable cause and enforcement of the law equally. As soon as you start using verbiage like "Probably profiling", that is not equal enforcement of the law. </div></div>You're way out of your element on this one.
wink.gif


Not everything the police do is a violation of your rights.
smile.gif
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

To answer the the OP's original question, in Texas, any state, county, or local law enforcement officer and ATF agent have the authority to check your papers. This is because in Texas it is illegal to own a SBR or OAW, HOWEVER it is a DEFENSE to prosecution that your SBR/OAW was legally obtained. It is always an offense to posses them, but the court will more than likely dismiss/decline to prosecute if you have the right paperwork.

One thing some people here are forgetting, or maybe are unaware of, is that the states have the right to make laws that are more restrictive but not less restrictive than federal laws. I can only speak for Texas because I do not know the laws in other states.

I'm a Game Warden, and am also a state peace officer, which contrary to what MANY people believe means that I can enforce any state law. Yes I can stop someone for speeding, whether you think I can or not. Also ANY officer (state, county or local) can check your hunting license if you are hunting, whether you are committing a violation or not, even though our department is the ones that regulate hunting.

We just made it legal to hunt game animals with (legally obtained) suppressors. Now if I'm out patrolling and I come across someone hunting or target shooting with a suppressor, I'm going to go visit with them. If I find that they are hunting, I'm going to check them for the required licenses and paperwork. Me personally I will usually ask how the hunting is and if people are having any luck, and usually people end up asking me if I need to look at their hunting license. However if they do not volunteer to show me, I'm going to ask for it. This would include the paperwork that shows that you have obtained your suppressor legally. If told no, I would politely inform you that possession of the suppressor was illegal in the state of Texas, BUT that it is a defense (basically get out of jail free card) if you have your paperwork for it. If I get told to "Fuck Off" we are going to have problems. This is because I don't appreciate being told to "Fuck Off" anymore than anyone else in the world who is just doing their job. Remember it is still an offense to just posses it in here, this means I CAN take you to jail for it whether you have the paperwork or not. Same as I CAN take you to jail for speeding or almost any other offense (there are a couple that are strictly cite and release). Just because I CAN doesn't mean I WILL.

Personally, I'm not going to take anyone to jail unless I have to, but that option is nearly always there. I've never come across anyone in the field with a SBR or suppressor. When that situation does happen I will likely visit with the individual and get as much information about their particular weapon because these things interest me. At the end of the contact if it has not already come up I will probably ask "You do have all your paperwork for this don't you?" if the answer is yes, I may ask to see it and I may not, just depends on the situation. If you do not have it on you and have not given me a reason to believe that you obtained it illegally then I will more than likely tell you that if you will keep your paperwork with you it will probably save you some hassle if you get asked for it in the future. If you are a complete dick during the whole contact and have done nothing but be a pain in the ass, we'll go from there.

Just because an officer can ask for something doesn't always mean that they will walk up and demand it. Another thing to remember is, a lot of times the person being contacted sets the tone for the contact. If you are an ass, the contact has a greater chance of going south. If you are polite, the contact has a greater chance of going smoothly. There are law enforcement out there that are asses and can make any situation go poorly, however there are a far greater percentage that will be pleasant until the situation calls for being more aggressive. There are some people out there that ALWAYS have bad contacts with law enforcemetn because they are asses from the get go. I can't tell you how many times I have been yelled at while giving someone a break, that makes it awful hard to take it easy on them.

Some of you guys are WAY overreacting/over thinking this. I can tell you one thing though, if you are an ass from the get go the contact is not going to go well. Same goes for the other way, if the officer is an ass from the get go the contact is more than likely not going to go well. Also I am a state peace officer 24/7 while I am in the state of Texas, I can enforce laws while off duty. That said, I am going to call a uniformed/on duty officer to take care of any situations that do not require immediate action to prevent harm to others.

This all pertains to the laws in Texas and the way I personally handle contacts, not the laws of other states or how other officers handle contacts. I do not keep up with the laws in other states unless I have a personal reason to, and I cannot control how other officers act.

ETA: This post ended up way longer than I intended and if you have taken the time to read the whole thing (or this whole thread) you have way too much time on your hands
grin.gif
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

even under TX law... I don't see how possession of an NFA item is any more PC than driving a car...

illegal to do both w/o restrictions...

but start randomly stopping drivers for a DL check and you'll end up in court
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">even under TX law... I don't see how possession of an NFA item is any more PC than driving a car...

illegal to do both w/o restrictions...

but start randomly stopping drivers for a DL check and you'll end up in court </div></div>

1. I do not need probable cause to make contact and request papers. I can stop anyone and ask them anything I want to. That does not mean you have to answer or even acknowledge my presence.

2. I do not need probable cause to demand identification and other documents. I need only Reasonable Suspicion, a lower standard, to justify an investigation.

3. I absolutely DO need probable cause to effect an arrest.

You guys get way too much information from television.

Also, in reference to just pulling someone over to check if they have a license, I refer you to Texas Transportation Code 521-025 paragraph (2) (b) A Peace Officer may stop and detain a person operating a motor vehicle to determine if the person has a drivers license as required by this section.

So, legally, I CAN just pull you over to check if you have a license, though it would be frowned upon and would most likely lead to me having my pee-pee smacked.
Would I do it?
No.
Just like I would not ask you for your papers for your suppressor or SBR if I was not at the range in response to a complaint.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Yes, come to me at the range and bother me to check my papers, I will in turn ask for additional identification from you if you are not in uniform (showing me your badge does not do it for me). I will make note of your actions, such as, are you checking everybody else at the range with SBR’s or suppressors. You said it, you never found anyone to be in illegal possession. Why are you at the range for? A few of the ranges I gone to have a lot of guys with SBR’S and suppressors, you will need to check everyone.

I always corporate I try not to be a jerk about it and I will always remember the officer and they always remember me; I always ask for their business card or contact in formation. The last overenthusiastic officer that I have dealt with crossed the line and didn’t even know it, his chief fired him. His department was keeping a close eye on is actions. It does not take much to cross the line of profiling. File a complaint with the range and with the officers department. Departments do not like to get complaints of harassment from law abiding citizens, it is one of the paper trails that can hurt them in court.

All I want to do is shoot, just leave me alone, so what if I am black and have all this stuff.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">even under TX law... I don't see how possession of an NFA item is any more PC than driving a car...

illegal to do both w/o restrictions...

but start randomly stopping drivers for a DL check and you'll end up in court </div></div>

1. I do not need probable cause to make contact and request papers. I can stop anyone and ask them anything I want to. That does not mean you have to answer or even acknowledge my presence.

2. I do not need probable cause to demand identification and other documents. I need only Reasonable Suspicion, a lower standard, to justify an investigation.

3. I absolutely DO need probable cause to effect an arrest.

You guys get way too much information from television.

Also, in reference to just pulling someone over to check if they have a license, I refer you to Texas Transportation Code 521-025 paragraph (2) (b) A Peace Officer may stop and detain a person operating a motor vehicle to determine if the person has a drivers license as required by this section.

So, legally, I CAN just pull you over to check if you have a license, though it would be frowned upon and would most likely lead to me having my pee-pee smacked.
Would I do it?
No.
Just like I would not ask you for your papers for your suppressor or SBR if I was not at the range in response to a complaint.</div></div>


so you're telling me, that under TX law, you can randomly pull people over simply because they are driving? no PC for the stop?

and that you also don't need a reason to stop a random person on the street and request ID, then IF they ignore you, that gives you reasonable suspicion to detain them and conduct an investigation...

I think that if you research the first one a little, you'll find it's more than frowned upon... I really wish i had a case reference, but I'm pretty sure you'll find that courts have upheld that you do in fact need PC to initiate a traffic stop...

and on the second, I really hope I misunderstood your explanation of TX law.. and am adding in something in my mind... since other "LEOs" here have said that refusing to acknowledge an off duty officer asking for a stamp gives reasonable suspicion and/or PC...


so... all you knowledgeable LEOs... what happens when you ask me for my stamp and I inform you that I don't receive a stamp when I legally purchase NFA items?
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

lets look at this reasonably...

4A:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, <span style="font-weight: bold">papers</span>, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

regardless of what a statute.. which may very well be outdated... says.

Even a LEO, on duty in TX, who receives a "report" of say a person w/ a suppressor doesn't have PC or reasonable suspicion since TX recently made hunting w/ suppressors legal...

the fact that hunting w/ suppressors is legal in TX establishes that they are in fact legal to possess, therefor a reasonable person wouldn't have cause to suspect the mere possession is a crime.

any more than a "report" of a person driving is reasonable suspicion of a crime

now granted all this is theory until a case or 10 go to court

but I don't understand all the LEOs that come to these types of threads and give all the ways they CAN essentially harass citizens... then start talking about how "you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride"... then get all sandy when people don't "respect" LEOs

YMMV... but you tend to get what you give
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

So I've been following this thread and I usually don't chime in on topics of this nature because it's futile to do so, and always turns into a pissing match. I have just a couple of things to throw out there to anyone who cares. I am a police officer and I own a suppressor as well as an SBR. I learned a long time ago that some people will be jerks just because they can be. That comment is not directed as anyone in particular.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it is not our God given right to own these types of weapons or devices. It is a privilege to own these items, and we've earned the right to do so through our actions as ADULTS. We've earned this right by being responsible citizens and our government has approved our ownership of these devices. Whether you agree with that or not, this it how I perceive it. I'm not saying that I agree with everything our government does, as I know most of you don't, but that's how it is and I'll comply with the rules. This privilege can also be taken away from us, just as our driving and voting privileges, as well as our handgun permits (at least in Indiana). These privileges can be taken away if it's determined that we are no longer responsible citizens.

All I can do is be responsible and respectful in the way I conduct myself. I expect the same thing from others, whether it's on duty or off. I know that this isn't always the case, but most of the time things will work out better than going into a situation with a chip on your shoulder. And yes, I can arrest someone even if I'm off duty, but that doesn't mean I'm looking to do so. I enjoy my time away from work and don't want to get involved in an incident unless it's absolutely necessary.

Be responsible and be respectful!

Sorry to ramble on, but these or just my thoughts and opinions. I'm not trying to offend anyone and will not get dragged into a debate or pissing match about any of the above statements. If you don't agree with it, then so be it.

Thanks and take care...ANDY
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so... all you knowledgeable LEOs... what happens when you ask me for my stamp and I inform you that I don't receive a stamp when I legally purchase NFA items? </div></div>

Am I missing something? All my NFA stuff required stamps.


1911fan
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Simple for me... I will just not go to Texas and spend money to support that states economy. Never been there hunting and now its on my list of states to stay out of with NFA items. Fuck em'

I love GA, no one cares, no one asks. I was once pulled over for speeding with 17 guns including multiple class 3 weapons in the vehicel and was not asked to produce any tax stamps.

Dick head cops do exsist.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I would'nt use this internet banter to make life decisions on what states or companies to ban. There is allot of bullshit to step in.
I feel more comfortable in Texas transporting items than in my home state.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so... all you knowledgeable LEOs... what happens when you ask me for my stamp and I inform you that I don't receive a stamp when I legally purchase NFA items? </div></div>

Am I missing something? All my NFA stuff required stamps.


1911fan</div></div>

you're missing something

BTW.. I also don't fill out 4473s on firearms and am not subject to a NICS check
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Not enough coffee yet, I guess. We don't get SBRs in this state, but AFAIK they, AOWs, and suppressors all get stamps.
I don't mind making an idiot out of myself again. Care to point out what I missed?

Disregard- I'm guessing LE?


1911fan