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Is the new "custom" dies worth the extra money?

xpshooter

xpshooter

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    • Oct 13, 2011
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    #1
    I've been looking at the some of the new dies out there such as the Short Action and Area 419 and wondering if the cost of them is worth it compared to Redding, RCBS, etc. This is for a rifle that shoots 1/2-3/4" moa, will these new dies really improve accuracy? Not wanting this to turn into a bash thread, just curious before I drop hard earned cash
     
    #3
    Here's the real question. Can you actually shoot the difference? A different sizing die isn't going to decrease your group size much, if at all. It's more along the lines of do you want the cool bells and whistles the high end dies have? A new sizing die isn't going to make a 3/4 minute gun start shooting at a 1/4.

    If you want to talk about concentricity? Removing the expander button and using a mandrel will make a difference. Making perfectly concentric ammo is a fine goal, but most of the time the perfect ammo isn't going to shoot any better than ammo that is 5-6 thou out of perfect.
     
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    #6
    Start small with run of the mill RCBS or Redding equipment or the like, and then upgrade five or 10 years down the road.

    Unless you have more money than brains and then just blow a lot of the former and be blissfully ignorant that it is no substitute for the latter

    That’s my cheeky way of saying, there is no substitute for experience and most of us who have the fancy equipment do it just cause we got a little bored with our old equipment, the rest think spending extra money makes you better at something which is clearly false
     
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    #8
    I’ve kicked around the same idea of buying a set of expensive dies also. I used to shoot PRS style matches, and gave it up about 5 years ago. I quit reloading and sold most of my reloading gear. Some of it I wish I hadn’t, but oh well. I’m back to reloading again and making precision hunting ammo.

    I’m pretty happy with my setup these days. It’s slow but I can make some very accurate ammo. Forster Coax press, RCBS manual powder thrower, RCBS trickler, Forster dies, and a RCBS 505 scale.

    I guess what it comes down to for me is, I don’t need to spend that kind of money on dies when I’m doing just fine and I could use that money on buying components. But to each there own, I won’t judge😎
     
    #9
    I think you may be asking the wrong question. Does your sizing die match your chamber? I had a Redding full length sizing die that worked well on a factory chamber but when I installed a new barrel which I assume was cut with a standard SAMI spec reamer the brass was not sizing enough. The brass didn't chamber smoothly, it didn't fit a chamber gauge and overall was just causing problems throughout the reloading process.

    I switched to a better die, for my chamber, a Whidden in this case and my issues when away. This wasn't a custom made die just their standard die. Now the die doesn't have to size the brass very much and it fits nicely in the chamber. I went with a bushing die and follow this with a Cortina mandrel die to do a final sizing on the neck.

    Find a die that matches nicely to your chamber. It doesn't have to be the most expensive die on the market but it does need to fit your chamber correctly.
     
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    #10
    Sac > whidden > Redding

    The nitride on the sac makes them the smoothest die I’ve ever used.

    IMG_8913.jpeg
     
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    #11
    OP I can load some very accurate ammo in my rifle with custom barrels and never spent $300 on a sizing die and another $375 for a seater. Don’t think throwing money at something will make it better. Practice your loading technique and learn if you have any weaknesses and work on them. You don’t need super expensive dies to load good ammo.
     
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    #12
    Rob01 said:
    OP I can load some very accurate ammo in my rifle with custom barrels and never spent $300 on a sizing die and another $375 for a seater. Don’t think throwing money at something will make it better. Practice your loading technique and learn if you have any weaknesses and work on them. You don’t need super expensive dies to load good ammo.
    Click to expand...

    Just so op understands. You’ve never owned a sac die have you?

    He didn’t ask if he can make good ammo with other dies he asked if they’re worth the premium since he clearly already owns dies.
     
    #16
    xpshooter said:
    I've been looking at the some of the new dies out there such as the Short Action and Area 419 and wondering if the cost of them is worth it compared to Redding, RCBS, etc. This is for a rifle that shoots 1/2-3/4" moa, will these new dies really improve accuracy? Not wanting this to turn into a bash thread, just curious before I drop hard earned cash
    Click to expand...

    For a 1/2 to 3/4 minute rifle, any dies will do. I've been doing that for 20+ years at this point with the same basic (crappy) RCBS dies that I bought in 2001. It does not take a lot of money to build consistent half-minute ammo... it just takes consistency in how you make it.

    That being said, I primarily buy Redding or Forester dies these days... so mid-tier stuff.

    Some guys spend tens of thousands refining the arrow, when in fact, the Indian needs more attention. That doesn't mean you can't benefit from better reloading equipment (because you can), it just means that for those with budgets the priority can go elsewhere first.
     
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    #17
    A good rifle/barrel will shoot 1/2 MOA with good factory ammo, so I'd say no - the dies won't make much difference in your group size.
    That said, I use some premium dies (Area419 M-series, Micron) where available for my cartridges, but I got along with Reddings for years. I recently ran into "clickers" on 300NM on the 3rd firing using the Redding, so I'm going to try the Micron (no SAC or M-series available).
     
    #23
    Rob01 said:
    Serious question. Saw someone mention here a while back but didn’t pay attention but now that you are saying it’s the dies I want to know what it is. Just tell me. I am not searching videos.
    Click to expand...
    It's just a short video from Alex Wheeler who explains it far better than I could, but it's a sharp click that occurs at the top of your bolt lift where the action's primary extraction occurs and meets resistance due to the base of the fired case being too tight in the chamber. They can be mild to quite stubborn/tough to extract. It isn't necessarily the die - it could be a chamber that is too tight as well. The 300PRC is the poster child for this. Some of the premium dies (Area 419, SAC, Micron) are supposed to size the base more than traditional dies, and help prevent this. I use the Area 419 for 300PRC and haven't experienced the problem that is so common with them. I just recently ran into it with 300NM (Redding die), but neither Area 419 nor SAC make a 300NM die. But, Micron does, and is supposed to size the base smaller, so I'm giving it a try to see if it will help.

    Highly recommend you watch the video. He knows far more than I. Well worth 5 minutes if you haven't heard of the problem before.
     
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    #24
    Clickers = cases that require some force to extract, so when you lift the bolt it "clicks" as the extraction cam engages and pops the cases free from the chamber. Usually if you measure the web area of a "clicker" with a mic it will be a couple thou larger than cases that didn't "click".

    The only time I get clickers is when I'm loading to higher pressures than I probably should for several firings or with brass that has lots of firings. A lot of these new fancy dies claim to size the base a little more than a standard die to combat the web expansion; similar to a small base die. In my head a SAC die is like a bushing die, small base die, and expander mandrel all in one die. If you have a need for all three of those dies, the price starts to make sense. Buy the SAC die and you can do all three operations in one cycle.

    If you don't have a need for any of those special dies, you should just buy a normal sizing die.
     
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    #25
    vh20 said:
    It's just a short video from Alex Wheeler who explains it far better than I could, but it's a sharp click that occurs at the top of your bolt lift where the action's primary extraction occurs and meets resistance due to the base of the fired case being too tight in the chamber. They can be mild to quite stubborn/tough to extract. It isn't necessarily the die - it could be a chamber that is too tight as well. The 300PRC is the poster child for this. Some of the premium dies (Area 419, SAC, Micron) are supposed to size the base more than traditional dies, and help prevent this. I use the Area 419 for 300PRC and haven't experienced the problem that is so common with them. I just recently ran into it with 300NM (Redding die), but neither Area 419 nor SAC make a 300NM die. But, Micron does, and is supposed to size the base smaller, so I'm giving it a try to see if it will help.

    Highly recommend you watch the video. He knows far more than I. Well worth 5 minutes if you haven't heard of the problem before.
    Click to expand...

    It will. Bought one for my dad’s 300 prc before sac was out. Cleaned it right up.

    The sac also size smaller at the base to prevent this
     
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    #27
    Rob01 said:
    I don’t get them so yeah maybe they should listen to me. 🤣
    Click to expand...
    That’s what I meant when I asked if your question was sarcasm. I thought possibly it was actually a cheeky statement disguised as a question. I figured as long as you’ve been here you knew of them. I don’t know, but it does seem that most people who post here about them are shooting magnum/ELR cartridges, so maybe it’s not common in the PRS-sized cartridges that you are more familiar with? I don’t know…🤷‍♂️
     
    #29
    Rob01 said:
    Serious question. Saw someone mention here a while back but didn’t pay attention but now that you are saying it’s the dies I want to know what it is. Just tell me. I am not searching videos.
    Click to expand...
    The wheeler clicker video and sizing die chamber match videos are very well done illustrations of clickers and where they generally come from- disagreement between the die, chamber and brass usually at the base. Insufficient sizing, not over pressure.

    Since I quit shooting 6xc I’ve not had clicker issues. Too many disagreements between 308 and 250 parent cases causing base sizing issues among chambers and dies.

    I too dont think the expensive dies are worth the squeeze over a Redding or Forster.
     
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    #30
    vh20 said:
    That’s what I meant when I asked if your question was sarcasm. I thought possibly it was actually a cheeky statement disguised as a question. I figured as long as you’ve been here you knew of them. I don’t know, but it does seem that most people who post here about them are shooting magnum/ELR cartridges, so maybe it’s not common in the PRS-sized cartridges that you are more familiar with? I don’t know…🤷‍♂️
    Click to expand...

    I am plenty familiar with some of the “smaller” magnums like the 300WM and 7mmRM. Used the 300 for years in matches but always used a Larry Willis die every few firings so probably why I never saw that issue come up.
     
    #32
    @Maurygold

    Sick setup!

    Do you think the SAC dies load more accurate/precise ammo than something like the Forster dies or, for you, is it more of a luxury type item that is just nice to have; something that makes reloading more enjoyable for you? Did you run into issues with other dies that the SAC dies fixed? Also, do all the SAC sizing dies use a bushing? I didn't see any regular FL dies on their website just now when I looked. Thanks

    Again, very nice setup!
     
    #33
    AllenOne1 said:
    I think you may be asking the wrong question. Does your sizing die match your chamber? I had a Redding full length sizing die that worked well on a factory chamber but when I installed a new barrel which I assume was cut with a standard SAMI spec reamer the brass was not sizing enough. The brass didn't chamber smoothly, it didn't fit a chamber gauge and overall was just causing problems throughout the reloading process.

    I switched to a better die, for my chamber, a Whidden in this case and my issues when away. This wasn't a custom made die just their standard die. Now the die doesn't have to size the brass very much and it fits nicely in the chamber. I went with a bushing die and follow this with a Cortina mandrel die to do a final sizing on the neck.

    Find a die that matches nicely to your chamber. It doesn't have to be the most expensive die on the market but it does need to fit your chamber correctly.
    Click to expand...

    ^ this

    For a long time, I used Redding Type 'S' F/L bushing dies, and Comp seaters. Then I found that Forster Ultra BR seaters did the same thing, for about 2/3 the price. I've tried different dies from Forster, RCBS, Redding, Whidden, Wilson and Bullet Central over the years. At the end of the day, the Bullet Central Micron die is *very* nice, and probably has a better interior finish than the others... but doesn't fit the brass coming out of my chamber any better than the Wilson die does - for half the price. The Whidden (in .308) actually was a touch looser at the shoulder than the rest. One of the Reddings I had was *way* tighter at the shoulder - which resulted in brass that grew an unreasonable amount every sizing. The 'factory' dies might fit your chamber just fine - or not. If they do, you probably won't see much if any improvement. If they don't... you might be singing the praises of the bougie dies. Either way, find a die or dies that fit the brass coming out of your chamber. Depending on how persnickety you are, you might end up with different dies married to different chambers. It happens ;)
     
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    #34
    xpshooter said:
    will these new dies really improve accuracy?
    Click to expand...
    I use SAC dies for 6mm GT, and my response is "probably no".

    Why then did I end up with SAC dies? I tried two other brands that scratched up the brass and bullet, and while they accepted returns were otherwise blasé about my concerns, so I thought "why not try the new guy"?

    My SAC blurb:
    • SAC Modular Dies:
      • The SAC neck-and-shoulder bushing addresses real problems with neck-sizing bushings, avoiding the donut and potentially improving runout. SAC isn’t the first to tackle this, but they’re scaling it commercially. Combining neck-and-shoulder sizing with a precision mandrel in one pass delivers precise, repeatable neck tension with minimal brass working, assuming the right bushing. Runout in sized brass is excellent and may be key to low total runout with seated bullets. Shoulder bump is simple to set with supplied shims, more consistent than backing off the die (which depends on press spring and brass variability)—another problem solved. If I try 22GT, I’m nearly set—same dies, just different bushings.
      • The seater doesn’t mark bullets, tangibly or visibly. Its radiused, polished stem distributes pressure low on the ogive. The shoulder alignment sleeve works well for .308-sized head cartridges, so I can ditch my .308 seating die.
      • Fit-and-finish rivals or beats Redding’s premium dies. It’s pricey, but the seating die’s multi-purpose use (e.g., .308) softens the blow. Premium price, premium performance—and it looks the part.

    I hope this is helpful.
     
    #35
    Buzzinga said:
    @Maurygold

    Sick setup!

    Do you think the SAC dies load more accurate/precise ammo than something like the Forster dies or, for you, is it more of a luxury type item that is just nice to have; something that makes reloading more enjoyable for you? Did you run into issues with other dies that the SAC dies fixed? Also, do all the SAC sizing dies use a bushing? I didn't see any regular FL dies on their website just now when I looked. Thanks

    Again, very nice setup!
    Click to expand...

    They’re not more accurate but it’s def a luxury - unless you have a large magnum with clickers (300 prc, Norma or win mag). They run more smooth than anything and they use bushing. All their dies are FL
     
    #38
    I think what’s important is not the cost of the die, but how they work and whether or not they do what you need them to do. And further, after guys have tried a few different types, finding with ones that one prefers to get the job done.

    For me, that means a traditional sizing die (non bushing type) is preferred over a bushing die, paired with a micrometer seating die, and using a mandrel die in between… and as long as they perform, they don’t have to necessarily cost a whole lot.

    For my 6GT I’m using the <$100 custom Hornady 3-die set that GAP sells (and has been selling for a few years now) and they’ve helped me make some of the best ammo I’ve ever made.

    IMHO, reloading is just like the shooting part of this sport, in that more often than not: it’s the Indian, not the arrow.
     
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