- Thread starter Buck Wilde
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If that is matched ammunition I would not want to see an unmatched lot. 
What conditions are you guys shooting in? I'm baffled that 1/2 moa seems so elusive at 50 yards. I'm usually the skeptic.
The range where I did most of my shooting was outdoors, but it was smack in the middle of the 'burbs with walls made out of railroad ties running the length of the range. Is this why I was able to achieve 1/2 moa? Windy days still opened up groups, but I could generally keep it at 1/2" when it was calm and I did it pretty consistently. I have an NRA air rifle target (12 per page) with 5 round groups and the largest was .473 CTC with a mk ii.
If you were to overlap them, I'm sure it'd open up a bit, but still probably under 3/4". Sandbag in the rear and a plywood rest up front.
The range where I did most of my shooting was outdoors, but it was smack in the middle of the 'burbs with walls made out of railroad ties running the length of the range. Is this why I was able to achieve 1/2 moa? Windy days still opened up groups, but I could generally keep it at 1/2" when it was calm and I did it pretty consistently. I have an NRA air rifle target (12 per page) with 5 round groups and the largest was .473 CTC with a mk ii.
If you were to overlap them, I'm sure it'd open up a bit, but still probably under 3/4". Sandbag in the rear and a plywood rest up front.
1/2" at 50 yds is 1 MOA.....not 1/2 MOA
I built a custom 10/22 that would shoot one-hole five shot groups at 20 yards with Wolf ammo. Volquartsen receiver, Kidd trigger, Lila barrel, Leupold rim fire scope, and McMillan STC stock. First time I shot it, I thought all rounds but first one missed the paper.
One thing I would state due to the misinformation that gets spread around. @justin amateur speaks to this often.
No rifle will make crap ammo shoot well. You cannot get around poor SD’s or damaged bullets. Not going to happen. Also, no specific lot of magic ammunition is going to make a poorly built rifle shoot.
Lot testing is to wring the most accuracy from quality rifles and ammunition.
No rifle will make crap ammo shoot well. You cannot get around poor SD’s or damaged bullets. Not going to happen. Also, no specific lot of magic ammunition is going to make a poorly built rifle shoot.
Lot testing is to wring the most accuracy from quality rifles and ammunition.
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One thing that keeps coming to mind while I am reading the posts in this thread and I feel like I should point out is this rimfire accuracy game is more about the journey than the destination. At least that holds true for me.
*Yes, I realize that I haven’t really contributed a damn thing that was constructive in this thread. But in thinking about it it seems to me the general theme of the thread is about attaining a specific end point. Over the many years of chasing this dragon I have come to realize there is no end point, just the journey.
*Yes, I realize that I haven’t really contributed a damn thing that was constructive in this thread. But in thinking about it it seems to me the general theme of the thread is about attaining a specific end point. Over the many years of chasing this dragon I have come to realize there is no end point, just the journey.
This is a very interesting discussion. We all have a different metric by which to test and define success based on the use case of our rifles. For me my 22lr is strictly used for competing in prs style of matches. Our matches regularly go past 300 yards and we will see 400 yards. So for me precision doesnt matter as much as in say benchrest. But if I have a flyer after I make a clean shot and miss a target high I may think that i had a incorrect wind hold and hold more or less wind and then miss off the side. So consistancy is more important then accuracy.
For instance my test ammo i have Lapua Center X, and a variety of SK ammo. I test at 200 yards to determine long range consistency of the ammo. In one of my rifles all of the SK and Lapua shoot the same if using 5 shot groups typically around 4" with some at 5" but if i shoot 20+ shot groups I find that the SK tends to throw bullets high with 7"-9" groups. That lot of lapua holds 4.5"-5.5". You would not find that out with 5 shot groups. (I'm out of that lot and the current one isnt as good.)
Your vertical shot placement does not track with velocity as might be supposed. So testing for accuracy at 50 and expecting one ammo to do the best at distance because it shot a beautiful 6x5 and you are getting consistent velocity lets say a SD of 10 or less (I have some federal target that does) may lead to some disappointment.
For me large shot count for groups is important for knowing the consistency of a ammo. When I look at a 6x5 I'm looking to see if all the groups are in the same place in reference to the target. We cant get hung up on how accurate is my rifle but look at how consistent is it.
For instance my test ammo i have Lapua Center X, and a variety of SK ammo. I test at 200 yards to determine long range consistency of the ammo. In one of my rifles all of the SK and Lapua shoot the same if using 5 shot groups typically around 4" with some at 5" but if i shoot 20+ shot groups I find that the SK tends to throw bullets high with 7"-9" groups. That lot of lapua holds 4.5"-5.5". You would not find that out with 5 shot groups. (I'm out of that lot and the current one isnt as good.)
Your vertical shot placement does not track with velocity as might be supposed. So testing for accuracy at 50 and expecting one ammo to do the best at distance because it shot a beautiful 6x5 and you are getting consistent velocity lets say a SD of 10 or less (I have some federal target that does) may lead to some disappointment.
For me large shot count for groups is important for knowing the consistency of a ammo. When I look at a 6x5 I'm looking to see if all the groups are in the same place in reference to the target. We cant get hung up on how accurate is my rifle but look at how consistent is it.
Ummmmm, Jesse, gotta disagree.
You contributed to this thread in a major way.
The rimfire 6x5 you've been maintaining these past years
has been an excellent reference with regards to rimfire capability.
Serious amount of time involved in that project.
That's why it ended up being linked here.
Much appreciated.
You contributed to this thread in a major way.
The rimfire 6x5 you've been maintaining these past years
has been an excellent reference with regards to rimfire capability.
Serious amount of time involved in that project.
That's why it ended up being linked here.
Much appreciated.
I've never understood, for example how ammo "A" can be more accurate than ammo "B" at 50 yards yet ammo "B" is more accurate than ammo "A" at 200 yards.
Thank you sir. I guess I just meant that I don’t really feel qualified or maybe able to confidently answer the OP’s question. It is funny though, my initial knee jerk reaction when I first read it was “well yeah there are plenty of sub MOA rimfire rifles out there”. I say this b/c when I attempt to answer a similar question (which I do every time I build a new rifle) for me the question is based on a specific distance (50 yards for rimfire and 100-200 yards for centerfire) because I feel it is only at those distances can I test the RIFLES limits and only after finding the best ammo for that rifle. Where as at any further distance I am really testing the shooters abilities to execute a proper shot time after time and make a perfect atmospheric correction and testing the ammo, both of which are MASSIVELY important in rimfire.
So now that everyone knows my parameters for judging a rifles accuracy I feel like I can answer the specific question of “is there a real sub MOA rifle” hell yes there are a lot of them, I have owned a medIzumi sized truck full of them. . I think the bulk of this discussion is really talking about ammo and shooter ability, not rifles.
I am not trying to say I am correct in thinking this, rather it is my opinion.
There should be a boat load of sub-moa rifles out there. My Anschutz 1712 FWT on the superb Match 54 Action shoots sub moa with Eley Tenex. My view it’s the ammunition every time. Image from 70yds, but do the math and you find that is sub moa
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What is your hit percentage on golf balls at 400 yards?
At what distance was that 1/2 inch group? I think it's generally accepted that it's somewhere between 1/4 and 1/5 in scale between the .22 and 6.5. So if you're shooting inch groups at 100 with the .22 and 1/2 with the CM seems like you're not doing that well with the CM.
Velocity variance. It will only show up at distance.
Imagine the concentricity of A is better than B, so that at 50 yards A is around .7 MOA and B is 1 MOA. Well, bullets are unguided, so they don’t know where the target is. So neither of these can get any smaller at distance. But they can get worse.
Imagine further that A has pretty bad velocity spread. It’s not going to show up at close range. But it can certainly degrade long range performance. So A shoots 3 MOA at 200 yards because the ES and SD are huge. But B has very small SD, so it only goes to 1.5 MOA at 200.
I agree, there are a lot of factors affecting both in reality, but it was a simplified example.
well....that right there is a pretty good opinion , kind of like the age old comparison between precision and accuracy.
myself, I’m a fan of precision, leading me to BR, probably the best absolute precision metric, mostly shot at 50 yds/meters.
Thinking about it, precision can ultimately get pushed to about 100yds, but things begin to get fuzzy.
past that, it probably starts to get driven more by shooter skill, condition reading, etc.
I guess we live in the ultimate “golden age” of rimfire as far as quality, diversity, availability of disciplines and so on and there are a few trends that run through all of it, mostly no substitute for top flight equipment and ammo if one seeks excellence. Fun....that’s another matter, you can have fun with anything, and many must, as a fact of life, deal with budget constraints, the problem often is the anonymous nature of the internet( always a double sided equation) and recognition/ self awareness.
I understand what you are trying to say but logic has it that whatever is the most accurate at longer ranges cannot be less accurate at shorter ranges.
go ask keith baker how he feels about that. bet he has data to show otherwise
I don't know who Keith Baker is. If what everyone is saying is true then the bullet has to somehow curve back to center in mid flight. I do not understand how that can happen.
It would be equivalent to two cars, one with an alignment issue and the other perfect You let go of the steering wheel on both and all seems equal for maybe 75-100 yards then the car with the alignment issue starts steering to one side or the other. It never straightens itself back, keeps going and going in the same direction. This is how I see the bullet path.
It cannot get more accurate, that’s true. If it is 1 MOA at 50 yards, it can never get better. But they can get worse at different rates.
regular top 5 shooter in PRS. has documented TINY ASS groups at 1k
tests his loads at 1,000 yards. they shoot .4ish or so at 100 and 1k
the 1 hole groups at 100 shoot with vertical and everything else at 1k
I should clarify a bit.
Sk long range in my RPR is 1.25" groups at 50 and at 200 its 5" plus flyers.
SK rifle match is 7/8" at 50 and 5" at 200 plus flyers.
Center X (best lot) 7/8 at 50 and 5" at 200 WITH FLYERS.
All of this ammo has simular ES
CCI and Federal target 7/8" at 50 7" plus flyers at 200. Both simular ES to SK.
The federal target used to be 7/8" at 50 and 5" at 200. Then I bent the receiver... now its no good.
Ammo will always shoot worse moa at 200 then 50 but not as much worse as another ammo. That difference does not seem to track with velocity so i expect it has more to do with harmonics... but thats just my limited testing.
Yes, I agree 100% with this statement. And if that's the case then Ammo "A" and Ammo "B" would be equal at 50 or at least insignificant enough to judge but at 100 yards they start to separate. I agree 100% with that and do believe that's the case probably 90% of the time.
Yeah, I can go with all that. In all you said you are not claiming Ammo "A" is more accurate than Ammo "B" at 50 yards but less accurate than Ammo "B" at 200 yards.
I have quite a few years worth of targets documented at 50, 100 and 200 yards.
I noticed an interesting pattern with rimfire results.
I call it the half-third rule. Half the distance expect one-third the spread.
At 200 yards you get 6 inches of spread.
At 100 yards, same rifle and conditions expect 2 inches of spread.
At 50 yards, 0.7 inches and at 25 yards, 0.2 inches.
It's not an exact ratio, but close enough to allow a decent comparison.
I noticed an interesting pattern with rimfire results.
I call it the half-third rule. Half the distance expect one-third the spread.
At 200 yards you get 6 inches of spread.
At 100 yards, same rifle and conditions expect 2 inches of spread.
At 50 yards, 0.7 inches and at 25 yards, 0.2 inches.
It's not an exact ratio, but close enough to allow a decent comparison.
Hmmm plenty? I expect that you have a sarcastic sense of humor.... I guess you did say shoot....
Centerfire rules do not apply with rimfire.
Man, I'm sorry....I just can't go with that.
First off, comparing rimfire to centerfire WHEN shooting them at 1k yards is not apples to apples. The end.
Now I can really go with that! LOL Where's that dancing banana??
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you are wasting your time arguing with some guys. Lapua test tunnel data show the same thing, well known, well published.
with regularity, for some reason, some lots are great @50 and lousy @100, just as some show little promise @50 and shine @100.
Don’t know, cause I have little interest @100 but if I had to guess,in some barrels/lots, some don’t get completely stable until past 50 and some stabilize early then fade.
yet another example that if you’re serious you gotta test lots at distances you shoot.
That one I haven't seen Tim.
The computer generated groups posted, showing the results of the same 40 shot runs,
have the results at 50 always being tighter than the same bullets spread at 100.
Those 2 target sensors, one at 50, the other at 100 allow the
software to generate those composite shot/trajectory images.
Is there a web page with more information available?
The computer generated groups posted, showing the results of the same 40 shot runs,
have the results at 50 always being tighter than the same bullets spread at 100.
Those 2 target sensors, one at 50, the other at 100 allow the
software to generate those composite shot/trajectory images.
Is there a web page with more information available?
This is what makes me wonder about fast twist barrels. I'm at the opposite end I'm more interested in 100 yards out.
you're talking group size at distance. rimfire versus centerfire doesnt matter. i'd take a centerfire rifle that shoots .4moa at 100 and 1000 versus one that shoots .1s at 100 and .8moa at 1k.
same goes for rimfire at say 25y and 250y which are close enough to the equivalent.
just cause it shoots small ass groups at 25/50y doesnt mean it holds at 100y or further
and yes. plenty of people shoot 22LR at 1k yards. just cause you dont know doesnt mean they dont exist. I know of 3 that are working past 800 and that's a SMALL sampling
I think what is trying to be said about some ammo that shoots “better” at longer distance than at shorter isn’t that the dispersion is less at longer than shorter (like 1” @ 50 and 0.5” @ 100). But rather a particular ammo may shoot pretty decent but not great at 50 yards say like in the mid to high 0.2XX” for the best it can do, but it may be capable of excellent performance @ 100 yards capable of groups in the 0.3XX” range with the average being around 0.6XX” - 0.7XX”. Where you may have another lot or brand that will shoot in the low 0.1XX” or less @ 50 yards but struggles to shoot anything under 0.750” @ 100.
I have personally seen this before with both rimfire and centerfire (but the centerfire would obviously be at different distances). I don’t really understand why, because you would think it is an angular equation...
I have personally seen this before with both rimfire and centerfire (but the centerfire would obviously be at different distances). I don’t really understand why, because you would think it is an angular equation...
right. it's not that the group shrinks at a further distance (this doesnt happen other than luck), but it doesnt degrade as distance increases
so a .3 rifle at X distance holds that .3 at Y distance, versus a .1 rifle at X distance that shoots .6 at Y distance
so a .3 rifle at X distance holds that .3 at Y distance, versus a .1 rifle at X distance that shoots .6 at Y distance
I bought my daughter a Ruger Precision Rimfire for 4-H small bore, and with CCI Standard Velocity she is getting about 0.75" groups at 50 yards. High velocity is 1.5" groups and Stingers are about 2.5" groups.
I'm with you. I have more interest in how it shoots at 200 vs 50.
We are on the same page. I thought at first the way I read it that you were saying a 22lr if it shoots 1moa at 50 will at 200.
Around here not many are doing ELR with the 22. Just a few. But plenty is a relative term I know of 3 myself that are doing ELR... One of those has a fast twist in a Deuce on order....
I have a lot of Eley Tenex that shoots so-so inside 75 yards in one of my Vudoos. Then it decides to do this at 390 yards. That is around a 3 - 3.5 inch group. The target itself is about 12x18.
Its all part of the magic of rimfire.
Its all part of the magic of rimfire.
I believe they’re always tighter @50 but some stuff will show mediocre 50 yd. and far better 100 yd. results.
Same thing, as far as that goes, with ELEY from some topflight prone guys I occasionally compare notes with
Myself, I think it’s fallacy believing group size to be the only ammo metric.
when the lot analyzer was running I felt it valuable assisting in lot selection and I place more emphasis on % of 10’s or for ARA %of 100’s rather than absolute group size, ideally a combo of both. Not a hell of a lot of the tests show above 90% let alone mid 90’s. Of course extrapolating out to 100yd it is only groups shown.
It's really not a big deal. I was thinking out loud and thought I'd write down what I was thinking. It actually never required a comment. Next year when I get moved to VA I'll have property I can shoot out to 300 yards on. Then, I'll find out for sure, and trust me I will find out.
I think that is basically what we are all doing, isn’t it? I feel like that is how “we” as a group of enthusiasts learn, by listening to other opinions or slightly different point of views. That is really the only reason I even participate in any kind of forum, to gather thoughts and opinions which help shape my own by preventing me from becoming too narrow focused.
Justin is a pessimist about rimfires due to setting unrealistic standards
and trying to entice others to accept his metrics.
RT, it's not my metric for rimfire consistency.
It was something I picked up on from the now defunct Eley lot analyzer.
The folks at Eley noticed those variations in where those small groups printed.
So the computer generates 50 shot aggregates for analysis.
As Eley put it...
Wait...an inch of spread at 50 meters...what were they shooting? CCI SV?
and trying to entice others to accept his metrics.
RT, it's not my metric for rimfire consistency.
It was something I picked up on from the now defunct Eley lot analyzer.
The folks at Eley noticed those variations in where those small groups printed.
So the computer generates 50 shot aggregates for analysis.
As Eley put it...
Wait...an inch of spread at 50 meters...what were they shooting? CCI SV?
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