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Rifle Scopes Is this scope damaged?

Conqueror

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Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 28, 2008
1,493
1,166
North Central FL
I just received this Vortex Razor HD scope in the mail. It was advertised as "mint" but arrived with some exterior cosmetic damage. I am pondering how to make it right, but I wanted to get the hide's opinion on something I have noticed while looking through the scope.

IMGP2203b.jpg


As you look around the edge of the field of view, it stays quite clear. But between the two red lines, there is a hazy darkness at the edge of the glass. You can see it best in the photo near the left line, but it goes approximately over to the right line. The seller claims the scope must have been damaged during shipping, as he says the cosmetic damage was not present when he shipped it. Could this dark intrusion in the field of view represent some sort of damage to the scope from shipping, ie a lens that has been knocked loose or something? I am guessing that if a lens was misplaced, the whole field of view would be in poor focus, but I wasn't sure if this is something I need to talk to Vortex about.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

How was it packed, should be obvious to tell if the damage happened in shipping.

As for the haziness it's hard to tell in the pics. Does it appear in all magnifications? I assume you're sure the glass is clean? Either way, Vortex will fix it at no cost, but it sucks that you'll have to deal with it.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

It was packed in the factory box, which itself was in a larger box full of crumpled newspaper. But a set of rings in a ziploc bag, along with a <span style="font-style: italic">loose</span> allen wrench, were tossed in the box with it. It arrived looking like this:

IMGP2199.jpg


The seller claims these deep gouges were not present when shipped. I find it hard to believe that UPS could have delivered such an impact to the box that a lightweight allen wrench, or even the rings, could have gouged the metal in this manner.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

You would be greatly suprised at what UPS can do to things. I had a barrel that should have had a few marks from my and my smiths barrel vise, but it got back from the smith via UPS and it was scratched from all hell.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

My guess is the reticle is not centered(elevation)....try moving the elevation turret back the other way until it bottoms out...bet its a bit blurry on the bottom then.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hold one of the rings up to the scope, see if the marks line up as ring marks. </div></div>
I'm not talking about the (obvious) ring marks. I'm talking about those two linear gouges. The base metal is displaced there, like a staked receiver endplate for an AR. If that "happened during shipping" then who knows what happened inside the tube.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

There were a couple of posters early on who reported a shadow that impinged on the field of view. If they moved their eye to eliminate the shadow it simply popped in at 180 degrees.

I haven't heard of anymore so I assumed Vortex fixed the issue.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hold one of the rings up to the scope, see if the marks line up as ring marks. </div></div>
I'm not talking about the (obvious) ring marks. I'm talking about those two linear gouges. The base metal is displaced there, like a staked receiver endplate for an AR. If that "happened during shipping" then who knows what happened inside the tube.</div></div>

I see the gouges, I've also seen similar gouges caused by pinching from rings.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

I assume that would have to happen at the junction between the upper and lower halves of the ring, right? The gouges are nowhere near 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

Looks like a pipe wrench was used to align the reticle when he mounted it. Are they on the other side too?
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

Something is misaligned optically, resulting in the shadow effect you noted. Personally, I would try to get my money back from the seller (I really doubt there was shipping damage). If you can't get a refund, then send it to Vortex, they seem to have excellent customer service - see what they think. Good luck.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

First I would check UPS to see if he claimed the value of the item and insured it. Then get your money back from UPS if insured. You could also check with Vortex as their warranty states they will repair or replace no matter how the damage occurred. Personally, going back to the owner would be my third choice as the outcome is more beneficial to you with the other options. Again 1st option would be to get money from UPS and possibly still have scope available for repair. 2nd option, send in to Vortex and you may get a new scope. 3rd option send back to seller and hope you don't get screwed waiting for your money.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

First, what condition was the box in when you got it, second those gouges are not shipping damage and you are going to have a hell of a time getting UPS to cover it, they will laugh at you unless the box is really banged up, but if that was the case, you wouldnt have signed for it in the first place.....right?
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

Get a hold of Scott @ Vortex. He and several others from Vortex are on the Hide. I sent Scott a PM last week, and he was very quick to respond and was very willing to help out any way possible.

They are a great company and you should enjoy your scope.

Good Luck
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

Those are from the rings, I have done that with a set of Talley rings on a leupold scope. I am thinking the rings that thing in before was a set where 1/3 of the ring was the bottom and the other 2/3 was the cap. I think Weaver makes them or someone of the sort.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My guess is the reticle is not centered(elevation)....try moving the elevation turret back the other way until it bottoms out...bet its a bit blurry on the bottom then. </div></div>

I agree with PGS also. Check where your elevation is.
The scope damage happened before it was shipped. Definitely not shipping damage.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

The tube marks look "old" to me. Not like it's just been done. Use a magnifying glass on it or a bigger macro.
It even looks like the marks have dirt in them just like the tube has on it. No fresh edge, no shine.
I am SURE that is not new damage.

I would be giving the seller a "chance" by saying he might have missed the marks by "mistake" so he can save some face and admit he might not have known they were there. Then get my money back.
If he stuffs you around I would go at him as hard as I could, in every way I could.
One chance is enough. If he sticks to the story then you know how honest he is and every time I have tried to work with people who have shown they are not honest they have tried to screw me over. Better to hit hard once you know he's not going to work with you than let him have time to protect himself.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like a pipe wrench was used to align the reticle when he mounted it. Are they on the other side too? </div></div>

shocked.gif


Looks like old ring damage to me too! You can see a slight discoloration where the ring was, and its right in that area. Maybe had a burr on the ring before he tightened it. No way did he not know it was there before selling it to you, unless the reason he didn't need the scope was because he went blind.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*] I concur with those more experienced folks who posted above. It looks like the scope was mounted before (read "used"), <span style="text-decoration: underline">is</span> damaged, and the damage was caused by the previous owner. Nothing to do with shipping.[*] Vortex is likely to repair this scope under their lifetime warranty, so even if the seller doesn't cooperate - you should be OK (just p***ed off a little). I'd contact Sam@Vortex here.[/list]
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

"vignetting" as you see in the sight picture is very common if the erector isn't centered.
The tube gouges are another story. If the seller said "mint" I'd get my moneyback.

I personally don't mind cosmetic flaws, but not if I paid for something advertised as "mint".
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

I'g get my money back, if you got it from a forum post the pics and info if they don't want to refund your money.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

I'd ask the UPS guy "what kinda rig do you shoot?" because unless the UPS guy mounted this scope improperly the seller is feeding you a line. A few good points here as my fellow Clark County res. Jason says the gouges are a common mark on scopes from improper mounting. I am one who also doesn't mind scratches......I paint my scopes and I'll scratch them myself. However if the scope was sold to you as "NIB" or "mint" them obviously you have a right to that. A great piece of advice is give the seller a chance to save face.....talk to him as a fellow shooter looking to make things right......."maybe you missed them?" or you as the "original owner" blah blah..get your money back from him and have him get the scope repaired by Vortex and then tell him you will still be interested once he gets it back. I recommend this because I don't know with as good a rep as Vortex has for CS if they will repair or replace a scope that was damaged in non-field use and by operator error...i.e. if yu run over your $2000 scope with truck should Vortex eat that and replace it?

Also get your # off of the box as mentioned and check on insurance and if it was insured see if UPS bucks and kicks at the idea of the claim(I think that will). Normally UPS wants the box to reflect the amount of damage depending on product. If you receive a broken vase........not much damage will need to show if any........break/scrap up a hard use rifle optic that has metal on metal scars.......that box is going to need to be beat up I believe.

Sam at Vortex is a good guy......I don't own a Vortex but have talked optics with Sam and he is a straight shooter that has a belief in their product.

Keep us posted-Derek
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

I know Vortex will fix it if I want them to, they seem to have outstanding CS.

The seller (a Hide member) insists that the gouges were caused by UPS, and refuses to give me any money back. He also failed to send me the ARD and bubble level, which he claimed were included, and he doesn't seem to be in a hurry to look for them or send them to me. He also doesn't seem willing to give me a partial refund if he can't find those parts, even though he claimed they would be included. I asked him three times whether he insured the package before getting a response, and it sounds like he isn't really sure whether he did, or what value he told them. He says I can send it to Vortex if I think something is wrong (no shit, that's obvious since it's on the warranty statement).

Basically, at this point, in my book, hunter223 is a seller who will deliberately lie to you about items he sells, and then fail to make things right when you uncover his deception.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

Is he aware of the thread, as there are always <span style="text-decoration: line-through">two</span> three sides to the story...
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

Is this the ad?....WTS exec. cond. Vortex Razor 5-20x50HD. I decided I wanted to try something new so it's up for sale. I am asking $1950 shipped with the 35mm Razor rings included. All Original equipment comes with the scope. Only trades I am interested in are like-kind high end scopes.

Thanks!....

It sure as hell doesn't look like it is excellant condition.Even IF UPS put the marks on the tube(which is probably bullsh*t)how can the seller explain an "excellant" scope having that haze much less the missing ARD and bubble level ?
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk4357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the ad?....WTS exec. cond. Vortex Razor 5-20x50HD. I decided I wanted to try something new so it's up for sale. I am asking $1950 shipped with the 35mm Razor rings included. All Original equipment comes with the scope. Only trades I am interested in are like-kind high end scopes.

Thanks!....</div></div>
Wow, I didn't notice it until you posted, but he has actually gone back and edited his post to say "exec. cond." instead of "Mint." Little did he know I saved a screenshot of his post the minute the scope arrived in damaged condition:

Vortexoriginalpost.jpg


He just sent me a PM saying he has "done everything he can do" to make me happy. All he has done is say "Looks like you are SOL" (his words) and tell me to send it to Vortex on my nickel.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

Anyone editing posts like that is dishonest and a liar.

I would do EVERYTHING I could to get him. Now. Go at him as hard as you can.

Upload a pic of the original add. Put a small clip of the before and after edited bits in your sig so EVERYONE can see what he has done.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jason280</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is he aware of the thread, as there are always <span style="text-decoration: line-through">two</span> three sides to the story... </div></div>

He seems aware and by editing that original add he has shown he is dishonest and is attempting to deceive. Once might be an accident. I guess he could pretend he didn't know it was like that and maybe that would have been accepted. Twice though? Going back to cover his tracks? Trying to change what has gone on? What honest guy would do that?
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

First off it was a mistake for me to not take photographic documentation of the condition of the scope as I packaged it up. Second, I changed the post to reflect a phone conversation I had with the buyer as I found the ring marks I found after taking the rings off to ship the scope. I informed him of the rings marks to which he replied "ok" and nothing more was mentioned of it other than he said "mint" was as factory new so I changed the ad to say excellent condition AFTER the buyer was informed. I did this in case he decided he didn't want the scope and the next possible buyer would be duly informed. I sold an NXS a while back that had some bad ring marks underneath the scope that were there when I bought it. I forgot about it and when I sold it and saw the ring mark, I informed the buyer and offered to let him back out but he decided he could live with it as I did. The buyer of the Razor didn't have a problem with the cosmetic ring marks so, I thought nothing more of it. As for the gouges, there is one on the ocular housing I don't believe that has been shown here that appears to have been caused by the same object that gouged the maintube but to a lesser extent. I dont have a Phd in optics but I know you don't mount the rings onto the ocular housing. So no these gouges are not ring marks from over tightening. The turrets had some wear marks on them so I sent him a brand new set to replace the ones with wear marks. I do find it odd that neither of those these facts have been told. I did not insist that UPS damaged the scope, I merely asked if that was a possibility. He said the box was in pristine condition. Which brings me to my next point, how do I know that the buyer didn't screw the scope up and decide that he did not like it and try to put it off on me? I can't give the buyer the answer he wants, so he seems determined to smear me on The Hide. I can't give him the answer he wants because I have not done anything wrong and will screw myself by refunding money on a scope that was damaged after it left my possession. I have been looking for the bubble level and the ARD but I couldn't locate them fast enough to appease him. I contacted Vortex and was going to help with repair cost for the scope but I was informed there would be none and I passed that along to Jason who didn't like that answer either. I don't know what else to say other than I've had numerous dealings on the hide and have not had a single hiccup until now. And as far as some of the members talking shit when you only know one side of the story that does appear to be painted in a light to favor the buyer with pertinent facts omitted seems premature. I am not looking to start a pissing contest in an open forum but I felt I should at least post my side. If anyone has any questions, PM me.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd224/paintballplayer700/Vortexoriginalpost.jpg[/img]

He just sent me a PM saying he has "done everything he can do" to make me happy. All he has done is say "Looks like you are SOL" (his words) and tell me to send it to Vortex on my nickel.

I guess you guys can both post all of the contact so we can see it in context.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

I said I changed the post. Yeah, I told him that because of his belligerent attitude.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... As for the gouges, there is one on the ocular housing I don't believe that has been shown here that appears to have been caused by the same object that gouged the maintube but to a lesser extent.
<span style="color: #FF0000">So you have never said anything to him about it being damaged while it was shipped? </span>

I dont have a Phd in optics but I know you don't mount the rings onto the ocular housing. So no these gouges are not ring marks from over tightening.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Many of us have seen this type of damage before. If it's not from the rings then what did you have under the rings? (meaning, how did you get damage where the rings sit) Was it dropped? It's old damage. I'm not sure if you are being tricky with words or not. Incorrect tightning of rings will do this even if they are done to spec. Are you saying it's not ring damage at all? Or just that you didn't over tighten them.</span>

The turrets had some wear marks on them so I sent him a brand new set to replace the ones with wear marks. I do find it odd that neither of those these facts have been told.
<span style="color: #FF0000">It's not odd at all. He found some issues and wanted to get advice. Did he name you? I don't see that he was attacking you in anyway and it looks to me he did all he could to be calm and simply seek advice.
Now that you have asked I am sure he can post everything and neither of you will have issues with that. </span>

I did not insist that UPS damaged the scope, I merely asked if that was a possibility.
<span style="color: #FF0000">So the damage was there before you sent it, you both knew yet you asked if it could have been damaged in the post?</span>

He said the box was in pristine condition. Which brings me to my next point, how do I know that the buyer didn't screw the scope up and decide that he did not like it and try to put it off on me?
<span style="color: #FF0000">Screwed in what way? What are you talking about? Take great care not to put yourself in a postition where you are seen to be playing word games and messing around. The more detailed you are the less it would look like this is going on. What *I* see is you saying he knew of the "damage" BEFORE purchase yet saying it might have been done in the post. IF YOU didn't ship insured and pack it well then really, it's your problem. You agreed to deliver X product in the condition you said it was. He only knows what he got. Not what you sent. OTOH, if you stated once it's out of your hands it's not your problem then you could argue he took the risk. I would not deal with anyone who said this
wink.gif
</span>

I can't give the buyer the answer he wants, so he seems determined to smear me on The Hide.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Which he did not do
wink.gif
</span>

I can't give him the answer he wants because I have not done anything wrong and will screw myself by refunding money on a scope that was damaged after it left my possession.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Which "damage" is this? Part of selling is taking a risk. If you don't want that risk sell locally and make sure they see it working.</span>

I have been looking for the bubble level and the ARD but I couldn't locate them fast enough to appease him. I contacted Vortex and was going to help with repair cost for the scope but I was informed there would be none and I passed that along to Jason who didn't like that answer either.
<span style="color: #FF0000">He's not gone out of his way to attack you in person. He kept your name out of it until someone looked for it and posted the info. Getting personal and going on the attack is a mistake.</span>

I don't know what else to say other than I've had numerous dealings on the hide and have not had a single hiccup until now. And as far as some of the members talking shit when you only know one side of the story that does appear to be painted in a light to favor the buyer with pertinent facts omitted seems premature. I am not looking to start a pissing contest in an open forum but I felt I should at least post my side. If anyone has any questions, PM me. </div></div>

Knowing your "side" has not helped. It looks to me like you took great care to pick your words and what you said without making anything CLEAR or supporting what you claim. Then going on the attack when he has not done that. We were asked for advice and we gave it.


FYI, when you edited the original post you should have included the issues mentioned here. That would show you were upfront and supported that you were trying to be accurate
smile.gif
I also wonder about the fact you thought this was "mint" or even "excellent".
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I contacted Vortex and was going to help with repair cost for the scope but I was informed there would be none and I passed that along to Jason who didn't like that answer either.</div></div>

I don't understand what more he could want. I don't care who's fault it is, it happened. Lets put the past behind us and look for a FIX to the problem (You found that fix). Myself personally I think if Hunter said it was in "Excellent condition" when he shipped it..... It was. In my experiences with Hunter he has been a great guy.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

If the buyer doesn't like what he received, simple, send him his money back. You shipped it and insured it, your responsible.

Trilogymac
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntinaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't understand what more he could want.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Assuming things are how he claims. Are they? I have concerns about what he has and has not said. The careful use of words which could lead to assumptions without actually saying things.</span>

I don't care who's fault it is, it happened.
<span style="color: #FF0000">I would care and I think others have a right to know IF someone selling on the site is not honest. Do you think the original or the "corrected" description are accurate going on the sellers comments in this thread? I don't.</span>

Lets put the past behind us and look for a FIX to the problem (You found that fix). Myself personally I think if Hunter said it was in "Excellent condition" when he shipped it..... It was. In my experiences with Hunter he has been a great guy. </div></div>
Yet EVERYONE who knows about scopes and who has commented has said that damage is ring damaged and not one of us has said it is new damage. It's not. Yes, you like the seller. Good for you. Not relevant though is it?

The OP did not name the seller and SEEMED to simply want to know opinions. Quite a few who KNOW gave opinions. Those opinions matched. Someone named the seller. The OP has not ranted, has not raved or attacked the seller. The seller has posted comments which don't help his case. The OP did nothing wrong.
At the VERY least the seller has produced incorrect descriptions of goods he has sold.
Once, when he put the add up. Twice when he "corrected" the original description. What makes you think he was accurate over the phone? We know his description was not by his own post.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know Vortex will fix it if I want them to, they seem to have outstanding CS.

The seller (a Hide member) insists that the gouges were caused by UPS, and refuses to give me any money back. He also failed to send me the ARD and bubble level, which he claimed were included, and he doesn't seem to be in a hurry to look for them or send them to me. He also doesn't seem willing to give me a partial refund if he can't find those parts, even though he claimed they would be included. I asked him three times whether he insured the package before getting a response, and it sounds like he isn't really sure whether he did, or what value he told them. He says I can send it to Vortex if I think something is wrong (no shit, that's obvious since it's on the warranty statement).

<span style="font-weight: bold">Basically, at this point, in my book, hunter223 is a seller who will deliberately lie to you about items he sells, and then fail to make things right when you uncover his deception.</span> </div></div>

AUJOHN he did name the seller long before the ad was ever mentioned. Do I know the facts, probably not. Do you??? Probably not. Its easy for every one else to sit back and say what should happen and what shouldnt happen. Im not taking sides here, but do i agree with editing the ad, no. Do i agree with the posting of this thread, no.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

For the record, I just went back through the text messages Hunter sent me. NOT ONCE did he describe the ring marks. He only admitted he knew about them AFTER I PM'ed him about the damage. All of our phone correspondence was through text messages except for a single, brief conversation when I told him my shipping address, because he forgot to write it down before going to the UPS store.

Since he's here now, let's see what everyone makes of our correspondence:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey,

If the price remains $1800 including rings and the other factory included parts, I will take it. Let me know what payment methods you accept and where to send payment.

Thanks,
Jason</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sounds good I'll mark it. I'll accept Paypal but you'll hafta cover the %4. OR, you can do a direct wire-transfer or you can send a USPS MO. Just whatever you want to do and how quickly you want it. just lemme know.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">USPS won't do MOs over 1k in value (not that I couldn't just send you two of them).

I am happy to do a wire transfer; I will require your name, address, phone #, your bank name, your bank's ABA Routing Transfer #, and your account #. I will cover my bank's wire fee, but ask that you be responsible for any fee your bank may charge to accept a wire transfer.

The address for shipping the scope is:
Jason xxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thanks,
Jason</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My addy is

Hunter xxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
my cell is 432-xxx-xxxx</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good deal. LMK the other numbers when you get a chance and I will wire you the funds (my bank is not open on Saturdays so it will be processed on Monday).</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sounds great. I was factoring std ground shipping in the sale price. is that what you want or do you want to buy expedited shipping so you get it quicker?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ground is fine as long as you were planning on insuring the package, haven't even received the Near base yet (it's going on a TRG).</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok will do. go ahead and send me your contact info and Monday we can get this ball rolling.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My cell is 919-xxx-xxxx. It is better to text me, because I work in a place where I can't always answer calls.

Send me your bank #s any time and I will go ahead and file the transfer so it is processed first thing on Monday.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll get that routing number ASAP</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, why are you selling it? The review you wrote makes it sound greater than sliced bread.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was gonna paint the Razor but decided I didnt want to paint a $2k optic with Krylon lol. I also just love to switch optics around andI spent too much money on a new tikka I just bought so Im also trying to recoup some funds</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Routing number xxxxxxxxx

Acct xxxxx

Just have it deposited in checking please and let me know when you do and ill send the scope.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just sent the $1800 wire transfer to account xxxxx at xxxxxxxxxx Credit Union, Odessa TX.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cool man, ill get the scope out in tha morn. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, lmk the tracking # when you have it.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">will do, shouldnt be a problem to get it out on the AM.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey, sorry I missed your text today, my phone switched off in my pocket for some reason (still had full battery). My bank also called to get my verbal approval for the wire and I missed that call too - I will call them first thing in the morning and have them send it.

Sorry for the delay,

JB</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No worries brother. Im not in a bind. Call me if you need anything else.

Thanks again
Hunter</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are sending it now.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok cool. I just called the bank because I couldnt log into my online account. I called and they said it hasnt come through as of yet. I'll keep checking back and as soon as it shows up, the scope will go out. It's boxed up and rtg just waiting on the electronic stuff to go through.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got your message this PM, thanks for the tracking #. Will let you know when it arrives.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cool man, enjoy it.</div></div>

Here there's a couple day gap while the scope was in transit. It arrived on Friday, 4/23. I came home from work early because my fiancee told me the package had arrived. I got home around 2pm. At 2:20pm I sent this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hunter,

This scope was advertised as in mint condition. There is no way any sane person would look at this scope and go "Yep, that's how it came out of the box." There are multiple ring marks, a scratch through the finish near the power ring, and at least 3 deep gouges into the metal on the scope body. The ARD is nowhere to be found in the package, despite your statement that "all original equipment comes with the scope." You also did not disclose that the rings were painted, including sensitive places like on the inside of the rings, and the threads on the locking screws.

I cannot believe that you were unaware of the gouges on the scope, which makes me conclude that you intentionally misrepresented the scope's condition.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, I looked over the scope and yeah there are light rings marks but I didn't know that till I took it out of the rings to ship it to you. I don't remember at all any gouges or scratches through the finish near the power ring. I did not find that the painting of the rings made a difference so I didnt mention it. I would not intentionally misrepresent the scope's condition and I sincerely apologize for the mix up.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the missing ARD?

I am uploading pics of the scope now so you can see the gouges.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll see if I can find the ARD. I completely forgot about the ARD</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The pic doesn't show it well, but the scratch near the power ring is bright metal. Note also the dent above "Vortex."
IMGP2197.jpg


These two linear gouges displace a significant amount of metal. The scuff to their right is also into the finish.
IMGP2199.jpg


Another spot of bright metal on the elevation knob:
IMGP2200.jpg


Finish wear on the windage from use:
IMGP2201.jpg


When you advertise a scope as mint, it needs to be mint, not "mint as long as you don't look very close."</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as the turrets go, you have two brand new turret covers. and the other marks, I dont remember ANY of those other gouges/scratches other than the ring marks. So, I don't know what you want me to do, the scope looks like shit compared to when I sent it out. I think it was damaged in transit.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It looks like the rings were smashed into the scope body....</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, first of all, I would like you to send me the ARD, and the bubble level, which I just realized is also missing. If you cannot find them, a partial refund will be in order so that I can acquire new ones from Vortex. I will think about the scope's overall condition and whether anything else is needed to make this right.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will look for the ARD and the level and send them if I can find them but there's not much I can do beyond that because as I said, the scope wasn't in that condition when it left.</div></div>

It was 3:05pm when he sent the above message, meaning it took him exactly 45 minutes to tell me I was basically SOL.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you insure the package?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the package screwed up?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not visibly, but when you insure "the package" you are insuring its contents. Did you purchase any insurance on the shipment when you dropped it at UPS? If so, they are liable for damage to the contents of the box incurred during shipping, up to the amount the shipper selected.

If your point is that UPS is not liable if they didn't damage the exterior of the box, then the liability would lie with the shipper (ie, you) for not securing the contents of the box in a manner that would prevent damage. So it's sort of bogus to say "not my problem, it didn't look like that when I sent it." If I send you a pristine scope but fill the package with thumbtacks, it will certainly be my fault that it arrives scratched to hell.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shipped it using a ups software program. Just saw your post, if the FOV has a problem, then the scope most definitely was damaged in shipping because it was functionally flawless when it left. but did have light rings marks it is a used scope.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You still haven't answered my question. Even the UPS shipper program should allow you to declare a value on the item and pay extra to insure the contents against damage or loss.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe it was covered yes.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What value did you tell them?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$1800 I believe</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basically everyone agrees with me in that thread that these gouges could not have happened in shipping without causing a lot of damage to the box, which there wasn't any.

Have you found the ARD or level?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">havent had a chance to look.</div></div>

The above was sent on Saturday, 4/24. He still had not looked for the missing stuff.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok here's the deal, I just talked to Vortex and you can send the scope in to get fixed free of charge. I can't buy the scope back or offer you a refund because the scope was in EXCELLENT condition other than the ring marks when it left here. Let me know what you want to do.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know Vortex will fix it, that's part of the warranty. To be blunt, I think you're FOS when it comes to the gouges - there's no way UPS could have delivered enough of a blow to cause them without damaging the box, and the box was pristine. About 15 people have looked at the pics now and NO ONE believes that they were caused by shipping, or that they even could have been.

Have you found the ARD or the bubble level yet? Have you even looked for them?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well buddy I don't know what to tell you I guess you are SOL. I've done everything I can do for you I've done everything I can do to help you get it fixed. How can I be certain you didn't fuck it up and you are trying to put it off on me? Found the level, still searching for the ARD ill send them asap. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I've done everything I can do to help you get it fixed"

Which is what, exactly? Tell me that Vortex will fix it? That was hard.

If this situation was reversed, I would do everything possible to make the buyer happy. I once sent a pistol to a buyer that got scratched in transit. I offered to pay for the shipping to springfield armory and split the cost of refinishing with the guy. All you have done is say "It's your problem, send it to Vortex if you want." What kind of seller isn't even sure if he insured the package, or how much value he put on it?

You haven't done anything CLOSE to "everything you can do" to make this right. Basically, you've done nothing except tell me to have Vortex fix it. It even took you a couple days to look for the ARD and level - if it were me in your shoes, I would have started hunting the minute the buyer told me they were missing. I gave you close to $2,000, and you have the nerve to question why I'm pissed? Even the ring marks make the scope not "mint" and you admit that you knew about them before you sent it. If this is your idea of "everything you can do" then you aren't a very imaginative person.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, I'm sorry I can't give you the answer you want. Second, no it did not take me a couple of days to start looking for the extra parts but a couple days to locate them. I have the nerve to question whether or not you in fact screwed the scope up and are trying to put it off on me. I told you over the phone that there were faint ring marks and you replied "ok" so I changed my ad to reflect that it was in excellent condition not mint. As far as the image issue, I don't know what could that have caused that other than the position of the erector system. </div></div>

Again, the ring marks were NOT mentioned over the phone. But frankly, I don't even care about the ring marks. The gouges were what pissed me off.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

it's not even in excellent condition. it's used and beat up.
my 02 worth.
jh
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

I say send it to Vortex and have them fix the problem and be done with it. I know it doesn't resolve your situation with hunter223, but hey it is the internet, and a lesson learned to request photos (buyer) or take photos (seller) prior to sale.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

first off, Hunter223 is a good guy to deal with, I have many times, he is not a liar or a cheat. I have seen UPS destroy items and the box was in good shape.....
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

It seems to me that a pair of heavy, sharp edged scope rings loose in the box could easily dent the soft alluminum tube like that. Those should have been foam wrapped. Bad seller in my opinion because of the bad packing of the rings, and not taking care of it. But, I have seen and dealt with much worse. You are lucky.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

After looking at the gouges again, the bottom one does look fresh, with the powdered finish under it. Can't believe he didn't post pics in his add for such an expensive scope. Can't believe the OP didn't want pics. Good luck in you two sorting this out, it a shame it went down this way.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

I believe the OP was screwed because the ad was not forthright.

2nd, I believe hunter needs to use a torque wrench. According to this thread he really likes to make sure the scope is not going to fall off.

Last, I believe a person should have self pride when selling items and not just look out for himself...especially when said person is from Texas...
smirk.gif
. Anyone who has ever bought anything from me on this website has stated that I have overkilled the packaging and has gone into great detail about the product. Again, that is just me.

Carry On.

-Al
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

deadly0311 AUJOHN he did name the seller long before the ad was ever mentioned. <span style="color: #FF0000">Yes said:
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img]</span>


Do I know the facts, probably not. Do you??? Probably not.
<span style="color: #FF0000">I know the seller has said much which supports the OP. </span>

Its easy for every one else to sit back and say what should happen and what shouldnt happen.
<span style="color: #FF0000">You mean what is right and wrong. Yes, It's really easy to sit back and say what WE would do AND what is reasonable.</span>

Im not taking sides here, but do i agree with editing the ad, no. Do i agree with the posting of this thread, no.

Why not? Why do we need to hide behaviour if there is nothing wrong with it? Do others not have the right to know that if they deal with XX person the description of the goods is likely to be wrong, you are likely not going to get all you paid for and he's not interested in doing anything about it?
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

Mate, you have been done over and I feel sorry for you.
Investigate your options in regards to mail fraud. It's quite possible you can make a case on this. It won't be easy but it's worth having a go. I know you have some good laws in regards to deception by mail.


CLEARLY the seller has as the very least misled the buyer. His own posts support this. How can people defend someone who in his own words supports at least some of the issues the OP raised and say he is faultless?
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">first off, Hunter223 is a good guy to deal with, I have many times, he is not a liar or a cheat. I have seen UPS destroy items and the box was in good shape..... </div></div>

The sellers own post in this thread supports at least some of what the buyer has said.
The seller posted an add with false details about condition and got a higher price because of it.
That's ignoring everything else. Just because YOU did not have an issue does not mean this guy did not and it's clear the seller was not honest. If you have to ignore facts (that both of them agree on) to hold an opinion that opinion cannot be accurate.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I said I changed the post. Yeah, I told him that because of his belligerent attitude. </div></div>

That doesn't make sense. After the buyer was pissed about the scope he got you wanted him to get even angrier by changing your post to reflect a different condition of the scope? OK.
 
Re: Is this scope damaged?

First the OP did the right thing to post this information. We all need to know who to buy/sell to on this forum.

The ad IMO was deceiving, even after it was changed which is another poor choice.

It does not matter if the mail carrier caused the damage or not, the buyer is not responsible for how the item was packaged.

This is an expensive item, the seller is not happy with it, do the right thing and give him his money back and continue to sell your items on here with everyone's full confidence in you.