Israeli rocket attacks.

Choid

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And yet look who Jews vote for, for a long time they choose to vote very blue, and the blacks do the same as well, very strange.

A dem will go on camera and say blacks are too stupid to have, or know how to get, a ID. Blacks will vote for them.

In NY they legit rounded up Jews during covid, killed tons of small businesses, and they will still vote Democrat.

Strange culture if you ask me.

I initially said Jews, Orthodox Jews are obviously Jews, my point stands.

The fact that one flavor of Jews will watch the other get completely fucked by the government, and still vote for that same type of government, well that’s pretty fucking sad
Actually, dumbshit, you initially said they rounded up Jews and they will still vote Democrat, so clearly you didn't realize the fact that the subset of Jews rounded up never vote Democrat, which, of course, is why they get the stick from Democrats like in this instance. So in your ignorance, I tried to help you out.
 

Choid

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I wish the facts made that statement true, but.....
I'll certainly agree that none of the facts are actually known, but given that the official stance from both countries is what it is, and that it is certainly outside of the history of US-Israel relations, and given the circumstances, I tend to believe it was a mistake. I am not big on believing in hidden conspiracies, though, as some people in here certainly tend to lament.
 

LoCal247

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Jonathan pollard?
Richard Kelly Smyth?

The government of foreign countries have they’re own best interests in mind not ours. We should be able to separate people and governments from arguments.
 

Choid

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Jonathan pollard?
Richard Kelly Smyth?

The government of foreign countries have they’re own best interests in mind not ours. We should be able to separate people and governments from arguments.
You'll get no argument from me about those two, or about your general point, but the difference between those and the USS Liberty are that in the latter, there was literally nothing to be gained and everything to be lost from firing on their own ally. But whatever, I am not sure what the point you are trying to make is. You are right for sure that all of our allies have taken advantage of us, and us them.
 

TurboTrout

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Actually, dumbshit, you initially said they rounded up Jews and they will still vote Democrat, so clearly you didn't realize the fact that the subset of Jews rounded up never vote Democrat, which, of course, is why they get the stick from Democrats like in this instance. So in your ignorance, I tried to help you out.

Uhh, so is your point that Orthodox Jews don’t count as Jews?

Not sure it works that way

Or is your point that Jews don’t normally vote for the big D?
Because I’m pretty sure they do

I’m not Jewish, well minus fiscally, but if I had their history of being killed off by multiple large governments, I wouldn’t be voting for big government, and if a subset of my people were rounded up I sure a fuck wouldn’t vote for those who rounded them up, heck I’d probably actively try to campaign against them.
 

LoCal247

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I'll certainly agree that none of the facts are actually known, but given that the official stance from both countries is what it is, and that it is certainly outside of the history of US-Israel relations, and given the circumstances, I tend to believe it was a mistake. I am not big on believing in hidden conspiracies, though, as some people in here certainly tend to lament.
I agree no tinfoil hat here. But wishing something to be true because you want it to be and it being true are two different things . I only became aware of the USS Liberty attack because of a memorial in front of my High School. Just had a name and date of death. I figured he died in Vietnam. Boy was I wrong. Never once have I heard of this “incident” from credible sources.
 

JakeM

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Uhh, so is your point that Orthodox Jews don’t count as Jews?

Not sure it works that way

Or is your point that Jews don’t normally vote for the big D?
Because I’m pretty sure they do

I’m not Jewish, well minus fiscally, but if I had their history of being killed off by multiple large governments, I wouldn’t be voting for big government, and if a subset of my people were rounded up I sure a fuck wouldn’t vote for those who rounded them up, heck I’d probably actively try to campaign against them.
They do that everywhere.
 

Choid

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Uhh, so is your point that Orthodox Jews don’t count as Jews?

Not sure it works that way

Or is your point that Jews don’t normally vote for the big D?
Because I’m pretty sure they do

I’m not Jewish, well minus fiscally, but if I had their history of being killed off by multiple large governments, I wouldn’t be voting for big government, and if a subset of my people were rounded up I sure a fuck wouldn’t vote for those who rounded them up, heck I’d probably actively try to campaign against them.
If you were Jewish fiscally, you wouldn't also be a welfare queen, now would you?
 

TurboTrout

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If you were Jewish fiscally, you wouldn't also be a welfare queen, now would you?

You day drinking?

I’m not, and the amount I pay in excessive taxes disgusts me.

And seeing how Jewish people support dem policies, including “social programs”...

“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left”
 
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LoCal247

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You'll get no argument from me about those two, or about your general point, but the difference between those and the USS Liberty are that in the latter, there was literally nothing to be gained and everything to be lost from firing on their own ally. But whatever, I am not sure what the point you are trying to make is. You are right for sure that all of our allies have taken advantage of us, and us them.
I would agree but what was going on at the time of the attack? They were taking the fight to their enemy and whipping ass. But also taking land. The USS Liberty was a signals intercept ship. yes I’m connecting dots . But otherwise it makes less sense. They were in constant contact with American allies....just not this one information gathering ship able to capture battlefield communications? it was a long time ago but I still think we have a twisted opinion of our greatest ally in the Middle East. If our interests line up with there’s,good if not.....(because, rightfully so, that’s how they look at it)
 

Choid

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You day drinking?

I’m not, and the amount I pay in excessive taxes disgusts me.
I don't even drink when it isn't the day. And I am sure we agree about taxes. Hell, I am sure we vote the same way. Just leave it at that.

My only point is that Jews are not monolithic. There are "kinds" of Jews who are very conservative, there are kinds that tend to be very left wing. In the US, most Jews are Ashkenazi reform, which tend to be very liberal. That is not true everywhere. Also, like most other religions and groups, Jews tend not to particularly like the ones who are of a different color or have a different religion. Do I think all Jews should be pissed at what happened in NY? Yes, but I think all people should be. I also think all Jews should be conservative in their voting. But what I don't think is that people are a certain way, in any of these ways, because of their bloodlines. They, like all other people, are that way because of their families, their experiences and whatever else makes them who they are.

FWIW, Jews, at this point, basically mimic the political demographics of where they live. They are no more or less liberal in LA, NYC or SF than the average person, which is not particularly surprising.
 
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Choid

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I would agree but what was going on at the time of the attack? They were taking the fight to their enemy and whipping ass. But also taking land. The USS Liberty was a signals intercept ship. yes I’m connecting dots . But otherwise it makes less sense. They were in constant contact with American allies....just not this one information gathering ship able to capture battlefield communications? it was a long time ago but I still think we have a twisted opinion of our greatest ally in the Middle East. If our interests line up with there’s,good if not.....(because, rightfully so, that’s how they look at it)
fair enough. I do agree with your earlier post that you sure don't hear much about it. FWIW, I am actually not that pro Israel in the sense that I think they are great or that I would ever choose them over the US. I simply don't think that any of the Palestinian or greater Arab argument against Israel holds water. And I do agree that they are sharp elbowed as well, and in it for their own good.

It all seems a little odd because I feel like I am having two separate debates in the same thread that show two very different sides of a coin. Undoubtedly, Israel is nationalist as hell, especially compared with any other "Western Democracy," which kind of points to what I am arguing otherwise, that not all Jews are left wing and think and vote a certain way, because you have in Israel an example of the exact opposite.

And yes, I do hope it was a mistake, because it would make me sad if it weren't. I'm not sure it would change my mind on anything else, though.
 
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Choid

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Remember that there were Jews rounding up other Jews in nazi Germany......
REMEMBER BENEDICT ARNOLD!!!!! Every group has monsters who will turn on the group for a better outcome, or as we would call those people, Shandas.
 

TurboTrout

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I don't even drink when it isn't the day. And I am sure we agree about taxes. Hell, I am sure we vote the same way. Just leave it at that.

My only point is that Jews are not monolithic. There are "kinds" of Jews who are very conservative, there are kinds that tend to be very left wing. In the US, most Jews are Ashkenazi reform, which tend to be very liberal. That is not true everywhere. Also, like most other religions and groups, Jews tend not to particularly like the ones who are of a different color or have a different religion. Do I think all Jews should be pissed at what happened in NY? Yes, but I think all people should be. I also think all Jews should be conservative in their voting. But what I don't think is that people are a certain way, in any of these ways, because of their bloodlines. They, like all other people, are that way because of their families, their experiences and whatever else makes them who they are.

FWIW, Jews, at this point, basically mimic the political demographics of where they live. They are no more or less liberal in LA, NYC or SF than the average person, which is not particularly surprising.

I agree with the difference between a northern orthodox jew vs a big city jew, however my lineage isn’t shit compared to the Jewish people when it comes to the dangers of big government, I’ve lived in tiny northern towns and also major cities, never have I ever thought government was the answer to hardly any problems we the people face.

I just don’t get how any flavor or Jewish person could be into big daddy gov
 

Choid

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I agree with the difference between a northern orthodox jew vs a big city jew, however my lineage isn’t shit compared to the Jewish people when it comes to the dangers of big government, I’ve lived in tiny northern towns and also major cities, never have I ever thought government was the answer to hardly any problems we the people face.

I just don’t get how any flavor or Jewish person could be into big daddy gov
I do not disagree with you. I don't get it either, but I feel the same way about everybody.
 
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LoCal247

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fair enough. I do agree with your earlier post that you sure don't hear much about it. FWIW, I am actually not that pro Israel in the sense that I think they are great or that I would ever choose them over the US. I simply don't think that any of the Palestinian or greater Arab argument against Israel holds water. And I do agree that they are sharp elbowed as well, and in it for their own good.

It all seems a little odd because I feel like I am having two separate debates in the same thread that show two very different sides of a coin. Undoubtedly, Israel is nationalist as hell, especially compared with any other "Western Democracy," which kind of points to what I am arguing otherwise, that not all Jews are left wing and think and vote a certain way, because you have in Israel an example of the exact opposite.

And yes, I do hope it was a mistake, because it would make me sad if it weren't. I'm not sure it would change my mind on anything else, though.
My bad I just like throwing the USS Liberty in arguments . I didn’t read any of this thread . I’m not a anti-Israeli fanatic. Just when I was in the military I got in an argument with a Palestinian peaceful protestor. I with no facts defended Israel and was anti-anything else I heard about them till I went to the Vietnam memorial and didn’t see the serviceman’s name. Then looked up how he died and was shocked as all hell. It’s embarrassing to blindly support something you don’t know anything about. I will never make that mistake again. Sorry if I made you think I was insinuating anything about the current fighting over there. It was a slight info troll that lead to a cordial conversation.
 

Choid

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My bad I just like throwing the USS Liberty in arguments . I didn’t read any of this thread . I’m not a anti-Israeli fanatic. Just when I was in the military I got in an argument with a Palestinian peaceful protestor. I with no facts defended Israel and was anti-anything else I heard about them till I went to the Vietnam memorial and didn’t see the serviceman’s name. Then looked up how he died and was shocked as all hell. It’s embarrassing to blindly support something you don’t know anything about. I will never make that mistake again. Sorry if I made you think I was insinuating anything about the current fighting over there. It was a slight info troll that lead to a cordial conversation.
Not at all. I just wanted to clarify my position, mainly because it was cordial.
 
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W54/XM-388

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    I would agree but what was going on at the time of the attack? They were taking the fight to their enemy and whipping ass. But also taking land. The USS Liberty was a signals intercept ship. yes I’m connecting dots . But otherwise it makes less sense. They were in constant contact with American allies....just not this one information gathering ship able to capture battlefield communications? it was a long time ago but I still think we have a twisted opinion of our greatest ally in the Middle East. If our interests line up with there’s,good if not.....(because, rightfully so, that’s how they look at it)

    It was a tragic incident for sure.
    The officially accepted story by both the Israeli government and the USA government is that it was tragic case of mistaken identity caused by incomplete communications between changing shifts of pilots / radar operators and that the attack was called off as soon as it was determined it was a legit USA ship.

    Others say that it was a false flag operation aimed at getting the USA to get into the war, targeting Egypt directly, and that it very nearly succeeded in that result.

    The pilots convincingly argue for the official version of events in all their interviews.

    Either way, it seems the governments involved are all in agreement to put the matter down as "fog of war" and resolved.
     
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