an excerpt from Atlas Shrugged
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I swear...by my life and love of it...that I will never live for the sake of another man...nor ask another man to live for mine
Good stuff.
Good stuff.
We have a different understanding of her. I never saw that any of those sacrifices were discouraged. I saw that no collectivist had the right to demand your sacrifice for the collective. You have the right to choose to place your self at risk for those that merit it.
Yeah, not a great writer.
I see the oath as: the respect of others and self. Individual rights and individual responsibility. Rational thought. The right to sacrifice how you see fit and not by force.
Rand should make you introspective not hostile. They are just words. Bummer you interpreted them in such a negative manner.
The quote has nothing to do with laying down your life for another human. It has everything to do with not being forced to live your life providing for others who can't or won't provide for themselves.
Maybe so. The message was more important. My understanding is that Atlas was the best-selling book of the 20th century, after the Bible. So a lot of folks seem to have gotten the message, but, sadly, not enough.
She should be regarded as one of the greatest political philosophers of all time. But her writing style was formal and too detailed.
Then again, if I tried to write an amazing political/philosophical/dystopian novel in Russian... when I grew up speaking English, I'd probably sound pretty stilted and formal, too.
Who is John Galt indeed. Never more true than today.
Sirhr
It is not the same, by any means, but there is a three part movie/film/miniseries Atlas Shrugged. It captures the essence of it all brilliantly. It's on Netflix or, probably, You Tube. Done between about 2008 and 2015. If you can't take the book, the movie is strong on political philosophy and gets the messages right. But the acting is pretty crude. It was low budget. But it was well done! Don't expect Star Wars special effects or Christopher Walken acting.
But it is good. And it is totally worth watching right now.
Sirhr
Believe I have read it 3 times. Her writing style doesn't bother me a bit.
Don't fight wars for the elites. Let them do it if they want. Don't get divided, that's how they win.
I read in college. Not assigned. Just read voraciously. I didn't struggle with the ideas. But with being bored out of my mind trying to get from point to point, event to event. It is a hard read. Or if not a hard read, not a grabbing read. It ain't Tom Clancy! But it's more important!
So agree. But it's sort of like exercise. The results at the end are worth it. But some days you sure question why you keep at it!
Cheers,
Sirhr
I read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead years ago. So much of what she wrote is now playing out.
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Disagree with Oregon! It is an incredible book. Yes it’s hard to read sometimes, and there are a few sections that you have to simply slog through, but it’s worth it. You are finished with most books at 300 pages. With Atlas, you are finished with character development at 300 and then the story starts. It should be required reading for all college freshmen. It really is an important piece of literature.
As I said in another thread:
Let's not forget that those who did NOT vote Socialist/Marxist represent about 50% of the consumers and at least 50% of the productive capacity in this country.
If we unite in a massive economic boycott, we can easily bring the whole progressive ponzi scheme down. That may sway the middle class "Democrats". We are not going to change the mind of the FSA and the hardcore radicals. But there is a large percentage of people who swallowed the progressive narrative of a fair and equitable society hook, line, and sinker.
If we make these folks suffer so they see the ugly reality of progressive governance then the pendulum may swing back our way.
Defund each and every woke business after racking up their cost by being a customer from hell. Tie up support, return merchandise, ask for frivolous quotes, etc. and then take your money elsewhere.
Stop paying more than you have to in taxes. Resist the urge to buy more stuff (and pay more taxes). Instead, max out your charitable contributions to organizations that align with your philosophy. Also pay as much as you can into HSA, 401K and other tax deferred accounts. If you run a business, pay yourself a pittance and invest in your business or into real estate.
If you work for a woke company, stop resisting their diversity and inclusion initiatives. Hire the least qualified candidates that score the most intersectionality points. Run the place into the ground and then try to pick up the disgruntled customers as a startup of after moving to the competition.
Stop picking up other people's litter in progressive cities. Shit on their sidewalks and piss in their house entrances.
In short, stop being a responsible citizen supporting an irresponsible regime. Make them fail.
Let's not forget that those who did NOT vote Socialist/Marxist represent about 50% of the consumers and at least 50% of the productive capacity in this country.
If we unite in a massive economic boycott, we can easily bring the whole progressive ponzi scheme down. That may sway the middle class "Democrats". We are not going to change the mind of the FSA and the hardcore radicals. But there is a large percentage of people who swallowed the progressive narrative of a fair and equitable society hook, line, and sinker.
If we make these folks suffer so they see the ugly reality of progressive governance then the pendulum may swing back our way.
Defund each and every woke business after racking up their cost by being a customer from hell. Tie up support, return merchandise, ask for frivolous quotes, etc. and then take your money elsewhere.
Stop paying more than you have to in taxes. Resist the urge to buy more stuff (and pay more taxes). Instead, max out your charitable contributions to organizations that align with your philosophy. Also pay as much as you can into HSA, 401K and other tax deferred accounts. If you run a business, pay yourself a pittance and invest in your business or into real estate.
If you work for a woke company, stop resisting their diversity and inclusion initiatives. Hire the least qualified candidates that score the most intersectionality points. Run the place into the ground and then try to pick up the disgruntled customers as a startup of after moving to the competition.
Stop picking up other people's litter in progressive cities. Shit on their sidewalks and piss in their house entrances.
In short, stop being a responsible citizen supporting an irresponsible regime. Make them fail.
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In addition to Atlas Shrugged, one should read the "Road to Serfdom" by F.A. Hayek.
Link for the sloths here
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View attachment 7533398Animal Farm makes the point about communism in around 80 pages.
Fail!
Idiocracy needs to be about half of that
Got that one too
. Fountainhead is my favorite of the books, then the novelette "Anthem". Had Galt's speech not gone on for 72 pages and she'd condensed it down I think it'd have been less off-putting to many. That said, the book is so appropriate right now.
Her non-fiction books where she points out how leftists/communists were infiltrating universities should have been heeded!!!!! This was in the 60s.
But talk about strange, she was friends with Alan Greenspan, who most decidedly believed in government control (IMO) and is married to Andrea Mitchell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We can but we won't.
She's fine. A gateway drug to Libertarianism. Could be a lot worse.
I don't disagree with you, but it is a hell of a lot better than the other options for kids these days.
Calling Rand a philosopher is a bit like calling a child playing with Lincoln Logs a carpenter. She's certainly a sophist, but even on that front her arguments (if you'd even call them that) are poorly constructed, rarely supported, and fail to engage with even superficial criticisms. Maybe we can settle on quasi-literate polemicist? You can find way better thinkers with the same sort of intention and focus if the ideas Rand is trying to push appeal to you.
From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
Start here:
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Lets not forget that she had seen the full joy of where Marxism and all the other appended horseshit ends up,........... and left it. Can't be that stupid then, can she.
I love the left looks down their nose and talks about how you aren’t educated. When in reality they are over indoctrinated, not educated and they must have missed every economics and history class
But but but...mah paper in the frame cost $80k. I listened to the professors that have $20k pieces of paper in frames. That means I’m smarter and stuff. Can’t wait for my children to have a $300k piece of paper in a frames that prove their intelligence!
We may not create value. We may not work hard. We may not think rationally. But we sure know how to follow.
Some people are just more equal than others. Don’t you get that?
The fatal conceit of the elitist. There are many of us out there with advanced degrees and professional certifications/licenses that think for ourselves and form opinions based on our life experiences. Most of the talking heads in media wouldn't know their ass from a hot rock about what they report on. I hope they continue to think along those line since it far better that you opponent underestimate your willingness to oppose them.
So was F.A. Hayek on the left especially by Eleanor Roosevelt and so called intellectuals of the time.
The anniversary edition audio book of Atlas Shrugged was well done. Just the ticket for those unable to read a book of that length. And audio books are great for those who spend a lot of time traveling.
Franciso D’anconia’s “Money” speech is perhaps one of the greatest summaries of capitalism ever written!
Franciso D’anconia’s “Money” speech is perhaps one of the greatest summaries of capitalism ever written!
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A lot of folks get wrapped up in religious style zeal one way or another to either love or hate Ayn Rand's works.
The haters of course go on about how "intellectually crude" she was, conveniently ignoring the abject failure of all the "intellectually superior" types when theory meets real world.
Too many people want to find something that they can just say they believe in and not have to think really hard themselves.
I would suggest that Ayn Rand's works make excellent food for thought.
They challenge many of the most dogmatic tenants that are taught as gospel truth by "society" today, from government down to personal relationships.
Her fundamental theories, ideas and arguments are well worth pondering and deciding if they can be of help to your life.
The haters of course go on about how "intellectually crude" she was, conveniently ignoring the abject failure of all the "intellectually superior" types when theory meets real world.
Too many people want to find something that they can just say they believe in and not have to think really hard themselves.
I would suggest that Ayn Rand's works make excellent food for thought.
They challenge many of the most dogmatic tenants that are taught as gospel truth by "society" today, from government down to personal relationships.
Her fundamental theories, ideas and arguments are well worth pondering and deciding if they can be of help to your life.
I have an academic background in Economics, and I can tell you that Hayek is still taught in academic institutions, and Mises is not. Now, philosophically I am a fan of both, but Hayek is a greater, and more important economist for two reasons. First, while his foundation was not far from Mises, he went beyond him in incorporating new ideas and understandings to build a broader work, and second, he was what is known as a "bargaining" libertarian, as opposed to Mises and, even more, Rothbard, who did not bargain. Neither way of being is necessarily better, but one can clearly allow more influence in changing times. Rothbard thought Hayek a sellout, but literally nobody outside the fringe is influenced by Rothbard* today, while everybody is by Hayek.
*I don't dislike Rothbard, I state this as a simple fact in the world of economics.
View attachment 7533398Animal Farm makes the point about communism in around 80 pages.
Holy shit that seems about right...
I bet Bradbury would be genuinely upset with the shit today. He was a cool motherfucker, when I wrote him a letter after reading some of his books in school, he wrote me back --surprised me at the time that he lived in AL too.
Most of Bradbury's work had to do with people dealing with problems others made for them through technology or politics or both. A lot times through children's eyes, regardless of the age of the protagonist. Innocence vs. this phantasmagorical world we have.
Something Wicked This Way Comes --indeed.
Have undergraduate and advanced degrees in economics. Although my field of study was production and resource, there was a requirement for so many credit hours in macro theory. For the most part thought much of it was a bunch of nonsense especially Keynesian theory however the work of the Chicago School made sense to me. This led me to read the works of Hayek. Both Hayek and Mises fled Europe during the rise of collectivist political systems and recognized the inherent threat to individual liberty.
We, thankfully, did little as far as Keynesian went. I got my degree in what I would call the Keynesian lull, so it was almost all Chicago for macro, though my concentration was on finance. Basically econ for people who wanted to be mathematicians but weren't smart enough. That said, Hayek has definitely been the single biggest impact on my worldview, with Henry Hazlitt being second. I am not trying to knock Mises. I think he was great, but he never evolved like Hayek did, which in a super Keynesian world limited his overall impact, which is a shame, but it is also a bit of a model for conservatives in general. At least in my opinion. Not that Hayek would have ever called himself a conservative.
"Basically econ for people who wanted to be mathematicians but weren't smart enough"
Funny. In my case it was all calculus, statistics and econometric methods. We were modeling ground water depletion in the Olgallala aquifer
Funny. In my case it was all calculus, statistics and econometric methods. We were modeling ground water depletion in the Olgallala aquifer
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Yeah. What the hell is up with that?
Very on topic and no arguing in a pit thread?!
This thread is the first posts for me in the bear pit...lurking for years. Never really put my toes in the water but thread title forced my hand. Ha!
It’s nice to read through some good well thought out posts...because I know there are several in this thread that may butt heads in political threads!
And one of the reason to love her work and everything it stands for. If the commies hate her. Then she must be on to something!
As for her being a philosopher. I will stand behind that statement. In the same vein as Locke, Descartes, Voltaire and Montescue (sp?) and Adam Smith were philosophers of sorts... and that their philosophy led directly to the American Revolution... So was Ayn Rand. Like the aforementioned political philosophers (who worked off of Cicero and Socrates and the Classical Greek and Roman foundations), she worked off the work of her antecedents and legitimately created a philosophy. Further, I argue, that her philosophy led to the Reagan Revolution and the libertarian movement that grew out of the 1980's. ot that Reagan was an Ayn Rand disciple, but he was certainly the front man for a powerful political movement that was influenced by Rand. By any definition, her thought leadership meets the definition of a philosopher.
Except, I guess, for those who just want to cut her up and discredit her genius.
Cheers
Sirhr
It's a powerful piece and I certainly think it influence the founders, though perhaps less than Montesquieu. I do not think it is as plainly written as it might seem on first read. Locke was one of the philosophers who told the censors of his time one thing, and the careful readers of his work something a bit different. Many did before there was mass freedom of expression, before there was, again, suppression. Alas.
Ah yes, the "does it generate liberal tears?" evaluation. Also curious that most of the responses to criticisms of Rand aren't responsive to anything and instead go for lazy caricature of positions nobody has taken.
Interesting take on trying to place her in the company of those philosophers. I don't disagree that she was/is influential, but I can't go along with thinking of her as a philosopher as a result of how her arguments are made and reflected on in dialogue with other materials. Pretty much the same way I don't think of a lot of prominent intellectuals as philosophers until they approach their subject with a certain type of rigor. Maybe that's too harsh or parochial of a line to draw, but of everyone you listed I can't imagine lumping Rand in with them. She's also the only somewhat modern name on that list, so part of me would expect her contributions to be more advanced than her predecessors. Maybe we differ there, but I've never gotten that impression from reading her stuff.
Maybe a distinction like you get for 'history' and 'pop-history' would be appropriate. It's not without value, it's just significantly less rigorous. Either way, interesting conversation and I appreciate seeing what some of you think about this stuff even if I disagree with its value.
Interesting take on trying to place her in the company of those philosophers. I don't disagree that she was/is influential, but I can't go along with thinking of her as a philosopher as a result of how her arguments are made and reflected on in dialogue with other materials. Pretty much the same way I don't think of a lot of prominent intellectuals as philosophers until they approach their subject with a certain type of rigor. Maybe that's too harsh or parochial of a line to draw, but of everyone you listed I can't imagine lumping Rand in with them. She's also the only somewhat modern name on that list, so part of me would expect her contributions to be more advanced than her predecessors. Maybe we differ there, but I've never gotten that impression from reading her stuff.
Maybe a distinction like you get for 'history' and 'pop-history' would be appropriate. It's not without value, it's just significantly less rigorous. Either way, interesting conversation and I appreciate seeing what some of you think about this stuff even if I disagree with its value.
Atlas Shrugged was my first Rand read. Picked it up one afternoon when I was 17 and read it through the night...was still reading it as the sun was coming up. Grabbed me. Just couldn’t put it down.
I like her descriptive writing...yeah she takes 100 words when 5 were needed...but that works for my brains lower processing speed. Much easier for me to follow. I’m not smart enough to pound through the old stuff very quickly...Smith and Locke are tough. Took me way too long to struggle through wealth of nations! Mises Hayek Friedman...much more modern and easier to read like Rand.
Marx Trotsky and Engels which were 1800s? still little tough for me to read...even more brutal reading through essays/books that have opposing polarity to my stubborn viewpoints. But must reads to give both sides of the equation I guess.
This discussion has me excited haha. Think I’m going to burn through Anthem tonight!
thanks! I will check it out.
One thing I love about Anthem is you can read it in a short night. Like rewatching a classic movie...
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