Just because........for Bowman....and others.

[Maggot]

Just because a person is born with a penis doesnt make him a man. It makes him male, but not necessarily a man. I know lots who are swingin meat but are far from what I call a man.

Just because something is a gun doesnt make it good gun.

Just becausesomeone enlists in the military doesnt make him a good soldier or a good man. There are just some who are crap no matter which cap they wear. For examples I refer to gangbangers who join the military just so they can gain skills to take back to the threet wars in "the Hood". Or from my era, Lt. Calley and the massacre at My Lai. I had a buddy who told me " I used to love to take the gook prisoners back. They always tried to escape".

And just because one puts on blues doesnt make him a good cop. We all know that there are those who take bribes, plant evidence etc. etc. I cant personally verify this but was told by a good friend who was there that there are certain exclusive neighborhoods in the Miami Florida area where the cocaine transctions are protected by the police. In NYC that is rampant.

So my point is not to put down ANYONE especially those who serve. Many, most, are fine men and women who deserve our thanks and respect. My point is to encourage independant thought. As a student of Philosophy I encountered the concept of anarchy. We determined two types. Philosophical anarchy which basically said that just because a government says this is right or wrong does not necessarilly make it so. One must stop and consider for him or herself what is right or wrong, and then act accordingly based on the situation. One must analyze each system, situation, or individual for themselves and mold there behavior as an conscious independent individual. Political anarchy,on the other hand, holds that all governmental systyms are flawed and must be abandoned.

I tend to embrace both. On one hand I feel that as conscious beings we must examine each situation and act accordingly. On the other, I tend to believe that no HUMAN system can possibly work because we, as humans, are flawed for some reason (perhaps relating to original sin and the fall of man.....butthats getting close to religon so Ill stop) and that until we repair that flaw all systems, including our wonderful democracy, must eventually fail simply because the humans who designed it, and execute it are by nature flawed.

Iam not suggesting anarchy. As long as we are here on earth we need some system. I only suggest that we be CONSCIOUS humans and examine each situation carefully and act with justice and compassion.

Just because to do less is not an option for true MEN (and women).

 

[shankster..]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

Great post Goldie. Very insightful.

 

[vwhugger]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The Story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears</span>


Once upon a time, there was a little girl named Goldilocks. She went for a walk in the forest. Pretty soon, she came upon a house. She knocked and, when no one answered, she walked right in.

At the table in the kitchen, there were three bowls of porridge. Goldilocks was hungry. She tasted the porridge from the first bowl.

"This porridge is too hot!" she exclaimed.

So, she tasted the porridge from the second bowl.

"This porridge is too cold," she said

So, she tasted the last bowl of porridge.

"Ahhh, this porridge is just right," she said happily and she ate it all up.

After she'd eaten the three bears' breakfasts she decided she was feeling a little tired. So, she walked into the living room where she saw three chairs. Goldilocks sat in the first chair to rest her feet.

"This chair is too big!" she exclaimed.

So she sat in the second chair.

"This chair is too big, too!" she whined.

So she tried the last and smallest chair.

"Ahhh, this chair is just right," she sighed. But just as she settled down into the chair to rest, it broke into pieces!

Goldilocks was very tired by this time, so she went upstairs to the bedroom. She lay down in the first bed, but it was too hard. Then she lay in the second bed, but it was too soft. Then she lay down in the third bed and it was just right. Goldilocks fell asleep.

As she was sleeping, the three bears came home.

"Someone's been eating my porridge," growled the Papa bear.

"Someone's been eating my porridge," said the Mama bear.

"Someone's been eating my porridge and they ate it all up!" cried the Baby bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair," growled the Papa bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair," said the Mama bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair and they've broken it all to pieces," cried the Baby bear.

They decided to look around some more and when they got upstairs to the bedroom, Papa bear growled, "Someone's been sleeping in my bed,"

"Someone's been sleeping in my bed, too" said the Mama bear

"Someone's been sleeping in my bed and she's still there!" exclaimed Baby bear.

Just then, Goldilocks woke up and saw the three bears. She screamed, "Help!" And she jumped up and ran out of the room. Goldilocks ran down the stairs, opened the door, and ran away into the forest. And she never returned to the home of the three bears.

THE END

 

[Maggot]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vwhugger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">The Story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears</span>


Once upon a time, there was a little girl named Goldilocks. She went for a walk in the forest. Pretty soon, she came upon a house. She knocked and, when no one answered, she walked right in.

At the table in the kitchen, there were three bowls of porridge. Goldilocks was hungry. She tasted the porridge from the first bowl.

"This porridge is too hot!" she exclaimed.

So, she tasted the porridge from the second bowl.

"This porridge is too cold," she said

So, she tasted the last bowl of porridge.

"Ahhh, this porridge is just right," she said happily and she ate it all up.

After she'd eaten the three bears' breakfasts she decided she was feeling a little tired. So, she walked into the living room where she saw three chairs. Goldilocks sat in the first chair to rest her feet.

"This chair is too big!" she exclaimed.

So she sat in the second chair.

"This chair is too big, too!" she whined.

So she tried the last and smallest chair.

"Ahhh, this chair is just right," she sighed. But just as she settled down into the chair to rest, it broke into pieces!

Goldilocks was very tired by this time, so she went upstairs to the bedroom. She lay down in the first bed, but it was too hard. Then she lay in the second bed, but it was too soft. Then she lay down in the third bed and it was just right. Goldilocks fell asleep.

As she was sleeping, the three bears came home.

"Someone's been eating my porridge," growled the Papa bear.

"Someone's been eating my porridge," said the Mama bear.

"Someone's been eating my porridge and they ate it all up!" cried the Baby bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair," growled the Papa bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair," said the Mama bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair and they've broken it all to pieces," cried the Baby bear.

They decided to look around some more and when they got upstairs to the bedroom, Papa bear growled, "Someone's been sleeping in my bed,"

"Someone's been sleeping in my bed, too" said the Mama bear

"Someone's been sleeping in my bed and she's still there!" exclaimed Baby bear.

Just then, Goldilocks woke up and saw the three bears. She screamed, "Help!" And she jumped up and ran out of the room. Goldilocks ran down the stairs, opened the door, and ran away into the forest. And she never returned to the home of the three bears.

THE END

</div></div>

"Just because a person is born with a penis doesnt make him a man."

Apparently true in your case, VW. Or perhaps that needs edited to "Just because a person is born with a brain doesnt make him intelligent". The Beginning.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

Nice post Goldie. I've interpreted the moral of the story to be, no man is perfect hence byproducts of man are destined to contain flaws. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

My problem with general anarchy is the fact that people will take advantage of the weak. When there is a lack of law or law enforcement, there are groups of people that pray on the weak. Have you ever seen a riot?

I'm going to stray on a tangent here. Here is my observations about criminals. ALL criminals are cowards. They will never act unless they have the upper hand. They act when the target is an elderly person. They act when the target is unarmed. They act when the target is unaware. They act when the target is away from their house or sleeping in bed. Never, not once, have I ever seen a criminal go for the gusto when he was outnumbered, outgunned or outmatched.

It's during times of anarchy (political), that criminals have a greater number of people to take advantage of. I would say that the majority of people are good, however, it doesn't take the majority to sink a country.

I know that we can act with justice and compassion, on an individual level, but when the "system" is flawed, do we or should we change how we act on the individual level?

 

[Maggot]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice post Goldie. I've interpreted the moral of the story to be, no man is perfect hence byproducts of man are destined to contain flaws. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

My problem with general anarchy is the fact that people will take advantage of the weak. When there is a lack of law or law enforcement, there are groups of people that pray on the weak. Have you ever seen a riot?

I'm going to stray on a tangent here. Here is my observations about criminals. ALL criminals are cowards. They will never act unless they have the upper hand. They act when the target is an elderly person. They act when the target is unarmed. They act when the target is unaware. They act when the target is away from their house or sleeping in bed. Never, not once, have I ever seen a criminal go for the gusto when he was outnumbered, outgunned or outmatched.

It's during times of anarchy (political), that criminals have a greater number of people to take advantage of. I would say that the majority of people are good, however, it doesn't take the majority to sink a country.

I know that we can act with justice and compassion, on an individual level, but when the "system" is flawed, do we or should we change how we act on the individual level? </div></div>

"Nice post Goldie. I've interpreted the moral of the story to be, no man is perfect hence byproducts of man are destined to contain flaws. Correct me if I'm wrong on that."

You were absolutely correct on that.

Please understand that I in no way suggested "general anarchy". I was in a riot once....about 1966 when the electric went out in te northeast corridor, and I was in Newark New Jersey on business....WOW is all ll say. What I was suggesting is that as you interpreted, no flawed system can work for long. I did add this at the bottom...

"Iam not suggesting anarchy. As long as we are here on earth we need some system. I only suggest that we be CONSCIOUS humans and examine each situation carefully and act with justice and compassion."


I agree hat ALL criminals are basically cowards. To me the whole criminal mentallity, be it violent or blue/white collar is flawed. The idea that rather than create something, Ill be a parasite and take someone elses creation. Its a sad state of affairs that the strong prey upon the weak. I feel that as one of the strong, it my responsibility to help those less fortunate than I, as much as reasonably possible.I understand that that is what governments, police, etc. are designed. I just long for something better. Til then we'll just have to do the best we can with what we've got. Thanks for your post.

 

[Phil1]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

I'd suggest that criminals have a combination of laziness and psychopathy.

Psychopathy is:
"Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.

And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools."
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

On the other hand you have heroes. LEO officers in the shape of the fictional portrayal "Serpico" and Pat Tillman. Real men.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd suggest that criminals have a combination of laziness and psychopathy.

Psychopathy is:
"Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.

And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools."
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

On the other hand you have heroes. LEO officers in the shape of the fictional portrayal "Serpico" and Pat Tillman. Real men. </div></div>

Great read Phil. Thanks. Leads me th think that perhaps the incidence is higher than 4%. Ive known quite a few, and what ive learned is that the one thing they cant hide is found in the eyes. If you look deep into their eyes there is always a deep pain, and something, some spark that the rest of us have, missing, in the eyes of the sociopath. Unfortunately our society today rarely takes the time to really look into one anothers eyes.

 

[vwhugger]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vwhugger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">The Story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears</span>


Once upon a time, there was a little girl named Goldilocks. She went for a walk in the forest. Pretty soon, she came upon a house. She knocked and, when no one answered, she walked right in.

At the table in the kitchen, there were three bowls of porridge. Goldilocks was hungry. She tasted the porridge from the first bowl.

"This porridge is too hot!" she exclaimed.

So, she tasted the porridge from the second bowl.

"This porridge is too cold," she said

So, she tasted the last bowl of porridge.

"Ahhh, this porridge is just right," she said happily and she ate it all up.

After she'd eaten the three bears' breakfasts she decided she was feeling a little tired. So, she walked into the living room where she saw three chairs. Goldilocks sat in the first chair to rest her feet.

"This chair is too big!" she exclaimed.

So she sat in the second chair.

"This chair is too big, too!" she whined.

So she tried the last and smallest chair.

"Ahhh, this chair is just right," she sighed. But just as she settled down into the chair to rest, it broke into pieces!

Goldilocks was very tired by this time, so she went upstairs to the bedroom. She lay down in the first bed, but it was too hard. Then she lay in the second bed, but it was too soft. Then she lay down in the third bed and it was just right. Goldilocks fell asleep.

As she was sleeping, the three bears came home.

"Someone's been eating my porridge," growled the Papa bear.

"Someone's been eating my porridge," said the Mama bear.

"Someone's been eating my porridge and they ate it all up!" cried the Baby bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair," growled the Papa bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair," said the Mama bear.

"Someone's been sitting in my chair and they've broken it all to pieces," cried the Baby bear.

They decided to look around some more and when they got upstairs to the bedroom, Papa bear growled, "Someone's been sleeping in my bed,"

"Someone's been sleeping in my bed, too" said the Mama bear

"Someone's been sleeping in my bed and she's still there!" exclaimed Baby bear.

Just then, Goldilocks woke up and saw the three bears. She screamed, "Help!" And she jumped up and ran out of the room. Goldilocks ran down the stairs, opened the door, and ran away into the forest. And she never returned to the home of the three bears.

THE END

</div></div>

"Just because a person is born with a penis doesnt make him a man."

Apparently true in your case, VW. Or perhaps that needs edited to "Just because a person is born with a brain doesnt make him intelligent". The Beginning. </div></div>

Tsk,tsk.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

Goldie, I think VW is suggesting your original post was elementary and so warranted an elementary school level story. Bizarre and pointless bu there you go.

What you touch on in your post is covered by the phrase 'corruptio optimi est pessima' - corruption of the best is the worst. Which is also the central theme of Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" I'm not saying those who make it into govt are the best but rather the corrupting effect of power inherent to positions of authority. This I believe is the foundation from which the breakdown of governance occurs. Hence some politicians, policemen, soldiers - heck even hall monitors - lose sight of their reason for entering their professions and instead are more concerned with protecting and perpetuating their 'lot'. Hence the closing of ranks, the use of the anonymous power of the collective against the complaints of the individuals who dare to speak against them.

The corruption of government, church or any other monolithic organizations enabled through the hiding, hoarding and dilution of information. Look at almost every scandal and the shock of the misdeed is usually out weighed by the shocking cover up tactics.

The greatest act of anarchy IMHO is the divulging of information. Show to the masses what the elite seek to hide. Under the sunlight of full disclosure the deceitful cannot hide. The greatest threat a free society can have is their freedom to information being compromised. When you control content you are close to controlling thought. Read Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm for literary references.

Interesting topic, thanks!

 

[Phil1]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">e 'corruptio optimi est pessima' - corruption of the best is the worst. Which is also the central theme of Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" I'm not saying those who make it into govt are the best but rather the corrupting effect of power inherent to positions of authority. This I believe is the foundation from which the breakdown of governance occurs. </div></div>

Longtime judge accused of fixing traffic tickets for friends, minister, co-workers
April 13, 2011 | 6:41 am

A longtime Orange County judge accused of waiving traffic fines for friends, co-workers and even his minister has been ordered to appear before a statewide judicial panel that could recommend his removal from office.

The hearing will examine a series of traffic cases that Judge Richard Stanford, a jurist in Orange County Superior Court since 1998, ended up handling for acquaintances, relatives and others.

At issue is whether Stanford violated ethics rules by first having the traffic citations transferred to his courtroom and then granting special favors such as waiving fines without following proper courtroom rules.

The complaint from the Commission on Judicial Performance formally documents nine allegations of misconduct from 2003 to 2010.

Typical is a case involving Edwin Jay Williams, who the commission says is the pastor of the Fullerton church Stanford’s family attends, and the judge’s friend.

In 2003, Williams was given a traffic ticket for running a red light. The complaint notes that Stanford and Williams discussed the matter. Then, although “the case would not have come before you in the ordinary course of judicial business, you transferred the matter to your department,” the commission wrote.

Judges are barred by ethics rules from hearing cases involving family and friends. Nonetheless, Stanford ordered traffic school and waived all fines except $52 for the school and another small fee, according to the commission. Stanford allegedly handled a speeding ticket given to Williams in 2006 in a similar way.

The commission alleged that Stanford intervened in cases and dismissed traffic fines for a juror serving in his courtroom, several family friends, his son-in-law and his own court clerk.

Stanford declined comment, but his attorney released a statement saying the judge “apologizes for his actions.”
Although “no tickets were dismissed, and only discretionary fines and fees were waived, Judge Stanford now clearly realizes that in these nine traffic infractions in the last 10 years he gave preferential treatment which violated the standards of conduct," according to the statement released by attorney Paul Meyer.

The statement said the judge “wrongly rationalized” that his actions “were saving time for the court and resulted in the same [Department of Motor Vehicle] records as if the people had come to court.”

Despite the admission, a formal hearing will take place this summer, likely by June, said Victoria Henley, director and counsel for the commission, which oversees the conduct of judges statewide.

Henley would not comment on the case other than to note that the commission typically receives around 1,100 judicial complaints each year and of those only two or three typically end up with a formal hearing.

If the commission determines that the allegations are true, Stanford could be censured, publicly admonished, privately disciplined or removed from the bench, Henley said. She added that the commission cannot file criminal charges, but the Orange County district attorney or the California attorney general could.

Stanford, once a municipal court judge in Orange County, has overseen a number of high-profile cases during his Superior Court tenure. Among them are several child abuse trials and a murder case involving the death of racing legend Mickey Thompson and his wife.

In 2005, an appeals court voided a murder conviction handed down in Stanford’s court when it was concluded the veteran judge denied the defendant’s due process during jury instructions.

-- Kurt Streeter
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/20...ic-tickets.html

 

[Maggot]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

Event Horizon and Phil. Yep, Ive read Orwell and Conrad. Your last paragraph EH, is why I stand in defense of Julian Assange. Its deplorable that some of our guys may be un necessarily impacted by his Wikileaks, but the fault really doesnt lie with him but with those he is reporting on. Its nice to encounter some well thought out minds on here.

Honestly I think the problem goes deeper than simply "power corrupts": It goes to the depth of our being and some how ties in with the fallen state of mankind (and of course Minx and Kendra) but again that starts to get toward the religous and best left alone here.

Thanks for your insightful posts. And thanks to LowLight for this great site.

 

[socalsheepdog]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I only suggest that we be CONSCIOUS humans and examine each situation carefully and act with justice and compassion.</div></div>

No offense but this is a tall order. It reminds me of the people who have an over simplistic view of the world and wonder why we just can't have peace. When I see these stickers on people's cars, I want to slap them. Of course we would be better off if we could coexist, be respectful and tolerate people's differences but that is not a reality so why even carry that basket of eggs.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Honestly I think the problem goes deeper than simply "power corrupts": It goes to the depth of our being and some how ties in with the fallen state of mankind (and of course Minx and Kendra) but again that starts to get toward the religous and best left alone here.

Thanks for your insightful posts. And thanks to LowLight for this great site. </div></div>

Respectfully, there is no fallen state of mankind. We were never elevated. We evolved and are evolving just sometimes it's two steps forward and 3 steps back. Religion is faith, not fact and if you want to explore Mankind philosophically then it's better to try and do so in a framework that is as close to a workable reality as possible and avoid the trapdoor of faith which by definition of the word cannot be proven or otherwise.

More simply, we operate under the mission 'to accumulate'. It's still, as has always been, a zero sum game. The idea of civilization, benevolent faiths, and certain modes of governance attempt to mitigate the zero sum mentality by putting forth notions of 'plentiful bounty' for all to enjoy, that you just have to 'work hard for it and you'll get your just rewards' etc. Those who reach positions of power or reach points where they are privy to additional information that places them at an advantage realise that a) there isn't enough for everyone's desires b) they can however get theirs and so c) engage in corruption to ensure they retain their advantage and maximize their benefits.

Why else are people so fundamentally hypocritical? You get people on this website with signatures quoting lofty aspirations of freedom and liberty but yet they enthusiastically support widespread 'glassing' of entire continents or regions of the world. They bay for the unfettering of the Constitution but support suppression and discrimination based on those who have different faiths and orientations. They cannot even begin to reconcile what they SAY they believe in with what they truly want for themselves and others around them.

On a grander scale, the zero-sum mentality is the foundation of every nation's foreign policy - why else do deals with murderous dictators, sell guns to dubious rebels, undermine democratically elected governments and replace them with tyrants - because there isn't enough of the good stuff to go around, we don't want to share or be short and so we'll grab whatever we can however it can be grabbed.

This isn't a criticism of any person, country or creed, it's the way we ALL are.

Anyway, after that torrent of happy thought I'm going to warm up last night's lamb chili, it came out rather well I thought...

 

[socalsheepdog]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

^Great post. Enjoy your chili.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

I agree, Great Post. I disagree with part of it but am deep enough into a bottle of red wine I dont give a shit right now. But this is the type of discussion I was wanting to stimulate.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Honestly I think the problem goes deeper than simply "power corrupts": It goes to the depth of our being and some how ties in with the fallen state of mankind (and of course Minx and Kendra) but again that starts to get toward the religous and best left alone here.

Thanks for your insightful posts. And thanks to LowLight for this great site. </div></div>

Respectfully, there is no fallen state of mankind. We were never elevated. We evolved and are evolving just sometimes it's two steps forward and 3 steps back. Religion is faith, not fact and if you want to explore Mankind philosophically then it's better to try and do so in a framework that is as close to a workable reality as possible and avoid the trapdoor of faith which by definition of the word cannot be proven or otherwise.

More simply, we operate under the mission 'to accumulate'. It's still, as has always been, a zero sum game. The idea of civilization, benevolent faiths, and certain modes of governance attempt to mitigate the zero sum mentality by putting forth notions of 'plentiful bounty' for all to enjoy, that you just have to 'work hard for it and you'll get your just rewards' etc. Those who reach positions of power or reach points where they are privy to additional information that places them at an advantage realise that a) there isn't enough for everyone's desires b) they can however get theirs and so c) engage in corruption to ensure they retain their advantage and maximize their benefits.

Why else are people so fundamentally hypocritical? You get people on this website with signatures quoting lofty aspirations of freedom and liberty but yet they enthusiastically support widespread 'glassing' of entire continents or regions of the world. They bay for the unfettering of the Constitution but support suppression and discrimination based on those who have different faiths and orientations. They cannot even begin to reconcile what they SAY they believe in with what they truly want for themselves and others around them.

On a grander scale, the zero-sum mentality is the foundation of every nation's foreign policy - why else do deals with murderous dictators, sell guns to dubious rebels, undermine democratically elected governments and replace them with tyrants - because there isn't enough of the good stuff to go around, we don't want to share or be short and so we'll grab whatever we can however it can be grabbed.

This isn't a criticism of any person, country or creed, it's the way we ALL are.

Anyway, after that torrent of happy thought I'm going to warm up last night's lamb chili, it came out rather well I thought... </div></div>

That wine got me out of gear for day or two. Had to run away and hide in the woods. Again, great post. Its clarity and detail made me step back for a moment a nd see that despite having studied science and math, eastern and western philosophies and religons, how I tend to gravitate strongly to the judeo-christian framework in which I wa raised. Nice to step out of the box. So lets look at it from your view. Im not sure exactly what youu mean by 'zero sum mentality'. would appreciate some explanation. I agree with a lot of your assesments; especially paragraph 3. And I agree that the position of leadership grants privilege and that is taken advatage of, etc.

The issue Im trying to adress is somewhat deeper. Im comfortable with evolution. Things evolve all the time. Ive seen The Hide evolve over my several years here. We've evolved from Zombierepellant to Shankster and VeerG. But try this. As humanity, we've evolved from from brutal bloodthirsty thugs that kill each other with sticks and stones to what? Brutal bloodthirsty thugs who kill each other with firearms, F-22's, nerve gas, and atomic weapons. If thats evolution mabey we need to slow the train. So my question aims more at WHY cant man seem to get along? What factor is it that always leads us back to the abuse of power, and other vices, abuse of one another, prisons, war, and all the other horrors.

If we dont call it "fallen state", and defaithilize the answer, then whats the problem? I dont buy into that theres not enough mentality. When I go out side at night I see an unlimited existance going on. Trillions of stars in this galaxy and trillons of galaxies, an mabey trillions of universes....mabey an infinite supply. The only shortage I see is in true wisdom. We have accumulated a lot of knowledge, but not the wisdom to know how to use the knowledge in strictly benificial ways. Why? A buddy of mine puts it in a different way. He says things are so fucked up because we choose to see everything as object rather than was what underlies the object, energy. When you learn to see things as they really are, as energy, which is apparently limitless, then reality takes on a whole new aspect. Thats not faith....I dont have much use in faith. I prefer logic...

But if its not a fallen state, why cant we seem to learn whatever it is that it takes to get up and get along.....? Looks to me that if we dont do that soon its gonna get real unpleasant for everybody.

Back to the forest.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Just because........for Bowman....and others.

Zero-sum is a model of behaviour and pay-offs that says each player in the game can only gain by taking the exact amount of his gain from the other players. So if you add up the gains and losses you get zero. There is no inbetween. It's harsh, it's like poker, only one person can win and that means everyone else has lost their entire stake.

You want to try and identify why are we so abusive of eachother? What's the problem? Well, I'd ask, is there really a problem? When did it become a problem? Our behaviour only really became a problem when we started to expect something better of ourselves. However, we so routinely and spectacularly fall short of even our most humble expectations that I'd say maybe the problem is we're aiming too high! Or perhaps, we're framing our expectations in such a way as to make them so unrealistic that we're bound to fail regardless.

Both salvation and damnation can be found at the micro-level - the individual. It takes one person to do a good or brave deed to get the attention of others for a realization/epiphany to occur. It also takes one bad person with certain gifts to cause the masses to become something horrific and prey on the weak or vulnerable. Examples of both abound in history.

The majority of people are followers who choose not to engage in personal thought and simply adhere to whatever the social norms are of their society and immediate groups. If the dominant personalities in a society therefore were inclined to be good or bad, the rest usually followed suit. As an example of this consider the Romans.

The Romans are the ultimate example of the masters of the Zero-Sum game and one of the most enduring, innovative and cruel civilizations in human history. We all know the crazy shit that went on for entertainment - people fed to the lions, the handicapped were made to fight eachother to the death or thrown to the animals, whole nations enslaved. Now the Romans weren't a nation of sociopaths. But because the ruling class was cruel and had in fact idealized cruelty as a noble trait - the common Joe followed along. The average Roman schmuck loved to see death and pain as entertainment and so there it was.

And so it is today. Time and again, we see those in power to be exposed as abusing their power. We see those who have the high profiles and great wealth because they were masters of the 'dog eat dog' world and so we have it in our minds we too must eat our neighbour. Life is a competition and only the losers care about the rules.

Until the idea that business means 'dog eat dog' is usurped and returned back to the original idea of capitalism as envisioned by Adam Smith we are in a Nash Equilibrium - a game where no player feels they have an incentive to break from their current behavior. That's also what our current political framework is in. Neither Dem or Rep are feeling any need to change themselves because the other guy isn't changing. Whether the incentive for change is going to come from a revolution, or meteor strike or flying pigs I don't know, I just recognize it for what it is (as it seems to me).

Political ideologies, religions and such only serve to enforce the zero-sum reality. Regardless of the actual tenets of the religion or political thought, once a religion starts it cannot tolerate the existence of conflicting views. Likewise with a political idealogy. Why? It's because we can't handle the idea that we might be wrong. That someone with a different view can be happy in their view if we feel that view is contrary to ours. You're either with us or against us (ring any bells!?). Differences are a threat, they cause doubt and they pose a threat to the future of our own beliefs - so what's the answer? Conversion - by persuasion or coercion and if that fails, then death.

So where is the hope I might hear you ask? Well, the hope is that some od these lofty expectations become more attainable. I'm slightly warmed by the growing trend amongst the uber-rich to be philanthropic with their wealth. I think also, that if the economy gets truly worse there will be a cultural backlash against the consumer-orientated livestyle and a re-birth of values that are more holistic of what success is truly about. As an example, Switchblade said something that really stuck with me. He was talking about celebrating his 25th year anniversary with his wife and detailed some of the ups and down of their time together and summed it up with "we measure our success not by what he have, but by what we have overcome." That right there is the sense of community, unity and determination that would address 90% of the bullshit that needs addressing. However, by the same token, 90% of what Switchblade says in other posts makes my hair curl!

Our evolution is physical, intellectual and emotional. The physical and emotional have been left in the dust by the intellectual. Our sense of power, accomplishment and worth is so far being driven by our intellects largely in an absence of emotional context. Hence one step forward and two steps back. There's hope, just not anything that'll happen quickly IMHO.

My biggest concerns are how do I raise and teach my new born son to be the best person and man he can be without him being taken advantage of or ruined in this world. What values, what example of my own behavior should I give to guide him? I don't want him becoming a callused, indifferent shyster even if he becomes wealthy as a result but of course I don't want him to be a limp-wristed do nothing fatalist either. I want him to learn how to fight but as importantly, which fights are the ones worth taking on.

Jesus Goldie, this is stuff I've never had to write, just thought about freestyle.