Just joined, long time hunter but never seriously got into shooting until now, poi changes at 100 yards randomly, but groups

[johnnyvw]

If you're going to shoot at 50 yards or less, definitely get a scope with adjustable parallax. You'll be glad you did.

One thing I did on one of my non-adjustable scopes to make sure my eye was centered was to manufacture a cover for the eyepiece with a small hole in it. It basically functioned as a peep sight. I did that for an Appleseed event, since I was shooting a 22LR at 25 yards (if you can find one of these events near you, I highly recommend it)

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I personally like a parallax adjustment but for 300 yards it probably isn’t a necessity. Fixed parallax scopes are usually set at 100-150 yards if I remember correctly.

I am not familiar with those two scopes so I can’t give you an opinion otherwise.

That said cheap scopes usually perform like cheap scopes. Also, will they put up with the pounding of an AR? I have been told they are hard on scopes.

An SWFA fixed 10 would be a good choice. They are built like a tank. You are looking at 30 mm tube though. Sell the mount you have, to recoup some $$. Again, I would urge you to move to MRAD instead of MOA now. As a new shooter it is easier and you’ll thank me down the road.

Sure wish I had moved to mrad when. I first started getting decent scopes. Selling many years of scopes and switching over was a Pain. In. The Butt! MOA was natural to me but I switched a while back because everyone else is in mrad and it starts getting difficult. This is good advice!

 

[Snuby642]

You need a local hands on mentor to narrow all this down. They can watch you shoot and suggest improvement they can shoot your gun to determine problems.

It's hard to fix 10 things at once.

If you cant find a mentor look for a class. A good instructor can pick through a lot of problems and provide a gun running right to sort out how much of it is you.

Shoot what ever brand of ammo your mentor / trainer wants you to use. You have to start with a standard of some kind. That will let you sort out other gear, problems. Match ammo is probably too expensive for you to train with since you don't know where the problems lie.

Yes get off that magazine like suggested get the 10 rounder, yes sand bags. Re torque your scope mount. I shot one that was loose for 3 trips trying to figure out why my reloads sucked. (Every body screws up eventually) had to retest the ammo from scratch.

This is not intended to be a slight on you nor any of the fine people here. This just a suggestion to the shortest path of happiness.

 

[Chanceterrill]

I personally like a parallax adjustment but for 300 yards it probably isn’t a necessity. Fixed parallax scopes are usually set at 100-150 yards if I remember correctly.

I am not familiar with those two scopes so I can’t give you an opinion otherwise.

That said cheap scopes usually perform like cheap scopes. Also, will they put up with the pounding of an AR? I have been told they are hard on scopes.

An SWFA fixed 10 would be a good choice. They are built like a tank. You are looking at 30 mm tube though. Sell the mount you have, to recoup some $$. Again, I would urge you to move to MRAD instead of MOA now. As a new shooter it is easier and you’ll thank me down, the road.

The moa makes sense to me go the yardage I shoot because it's close to 1 moa per inch..... But I haven't tried to learn mrad either..... I'm really used to inches and our system because I've been in construction for over a decade..... A fixed 10 power would not work in my situation as I could never get a groundhog or squirrel in my sights at 30 yards..... 3 or 4 power gives me a big field of view for fast target acquisition, but I want at least 12 power for shooting ground hogs past 100 yards

 

[Chanceterrill]

You need a local hands on mentor to narrow all this down. They can watch you shoot and suggest improvement they can shoot your gun to determine problems.

It's hard to fix 10 things at once.

If you cant find a mentor look for a class. A good instructor can pick through a lot of problems and provide a gun running right to sort out how much of it is you.

Shoot what ever brand of ammo your mentor / trainer wants you to use. You have to start with a standard of some kind. That will let you sort out other gear, problems. Match ammo is probably too expensive for you to train with since you don't know where the problems lie.

Yes get off that magazine like suggested get the 10 rounder, yes sand bags. Re torque your scope mount. I shot one that was loose for 3 trips trying to figure out why my reloads sucked. (Every body screws up eventually) had to retest the ammo from scratch.

This is not intended to be a slight on you nor any of the fine people here. This just a suggestion to the shortest path of happiness.

All great advice! Earlier I isolated problem...... It was me pushing my cheek into stock extremely hard when concentrating..... Also the ammo I was using is 1. 75 moa on average.....its cheaper then federal xm193 so..... I shot some seirra brand factory match ammo with their 77 grain matchking bullet and averaged under .75 inches ...... 5 shot 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards with a thousand dollar ar and 200 dollar scope? I'll take that all day! Getting back into reloading as well, now I know what bullet I'll start with, a 77 grain matchking...... Now if I could just find some varget in stock some where.....

Also when I say I averaged I mean I shot at least 4 5 shot groups and counted every shot and every group, extreme spread center to center, measured to the nearest 16th of an inch, tallied up and divded by number of groups...... All 4 groups of the Sierra including 2 fliers were between 5/8" and 1 inch..... (the worst group was 1")

 

[Holliday]

Sure wish I had moved to mrad when. I first started getting decent scopes. Selling many years of scopes and switching over was a Pain. In. The Butt! MOA was natural to me but I switched a while back because everyone else is in mrad and it starts getting difficult. This is good advice!

For OP: In reality MRAD & MOA are the same thing. Just angular measurements.

The key is to have turrets a reticle match and not to convert. Just think in your chosen scale. Where MRAD/Mils excel is that in practical application it is applied in base ten. Scopes are generally set up in .1 or 1/10th increments.

MOA is basically base 4. With scope generally set up in .25 MOA increments.

So, if I say 1.5 mils you immediately know it is 15 clicks by simply moving the decimal point. It works much like the metric system.

6.75 MOA you need to multiply by 4 to get 27 clicks. (Someone check me, it has been a while)

Also there are some really cool “quick wind” and “speed drop” stuff that is primarily for mils. I am now learning about a system where if you have a known dimension, say 12 inches and you can pull that off your target in Mils boom you have your drop without ever needing to know your range. Damn handy if your range finder craps out on a hunt.

I imagine what will work for MRAD can be adapted to work with MOA. The problem is that most of us don’t have calculators built into our brains (or we can’t tap into them.) MRAD/Mils base ten application makes these calculations doable on the fly for us mere mortals.....

 

[Chanceterrill]

Sure wish I had moved to mrad when. I first started getting decent scopes. Selling many years of scopes and switching over was a Pain. In. The Butt! MOA was natural to me but I switched a while back because everyone else is in mrad and it starts getting difficult. This is good advice!

I might try and learn both..... At this point, shooting groups and hunting from 300 yards in, I don't think learning either is really life or death, but usually when I get into something I tend to learn everything about it, so chances are I'll try to learn both at least enough to get by

Im not shooting at a level or distance to where I'll need to tape dope charts on my scope cover...... Maybe someday, for now I'm happy learning holdovers with 100 yard zero from 0 to 300 yards....... I like 100 yard zero because there's never a time where I hold under, it's either aim on or aim High.....hunting situations tend to happen fast so the less I have to think About the better lol

 

[Holliday]

The moa makes sense to me go the yardage I shoot because it's close to 1 moa per inch..... But I haven't tried to learn mrad either..... I'm really used to inches and our system because I've been in construction for over a decade..... A fixed 10 power would not work in my situation as I could never get a groundhog or squirrel in my sights at 30 yards..... 3 or 4 power gives me a big field of view for fast target acquisition, but I want at least 12 power for shooting ground hogs past 100 yards

You don’t need that. You are converting. And it is not exactly 1 inch either. If you miss your intended point of impact, just measure with your reticle where you did hit. You don’t need inches at all. If you never convert, your life will be easier.

BTW, I was a builder for 25 years. I moved to designing parts for metric motorcycles. Knowing one language, in no way precludes you from learning and using other languages. When you are working SAE think SAE. When you are using Metric think metric or base 10. Same with MOA, inches and Mils.
Moa and mils are angular measurements. Inches are linear measurements. MOA and Mils have more in common.

 

[Chanceterrill]

A

For OP: In reality MRAD & MOA are the same thing. Just angular measurements.

The key is to have turrets a reticle match and not to convert. Just think in your chosen scale. Where MRAD/Mils excel is that in practical application it is applied in base ten. Scopes are generally set up in .01 or 1/10th increments.

MOA is basically base 4. With scope generally set up in .25 MOA increments.

So, if I say 1.5 mils you immediately know it is 15 clicks by simply moving the decimal point. It works much like the metric system.

6.75 MOA you need to multiply by 4 to get 27 clicks. (Someone check me, it has been a while)

Also there are some really cool “quick wind” and “speed drop” stuff that is primarily for mils. I am now learning about a system where if you have a known dimension, say 12 inches and you can pull that off your target in Mils boom you have your drop without ever needing to know your range. Damn handy if your range finder craps out on a hunt.

I imagine what will work for MRAD can be adapted to work with MOA. The problem is that most of us don’t have calculators built into our brains (or we can’t tap into them.) MRAD/Mils base ten application makes these calculations doable on the fly for us mere mortals.....


View attachment 7702061

Aha! That does make sense..... If I were shooting in your guys league I would pick that! I really only like moa because I'm very familiar with a tape measure.... So since 1/4 moa is very close to 1/4 inch, at 300 yards and in I basically think of moa and inches as interchangable..... Each click is 1/4 inch at 100 yards, but I can see where that would get very confusing very fast! And if you don't add the. 047 on to the inch I'm sure that gets to be several inches different at 600 to 1000 yards

 

[Holliday]

Im not shooting at a level or distance to where I'll need to tape dope charts on my scope cover...... Maybe someday, for now I'm happy learning holdovers with 100 yard zero from 0 to 300 yards....... I like 100 yard zero because there's never a time where I hold under, it's either aim on or aim High.....hunting situations tend to happen fast so the less I have to think About the better lol

Good point. Remember where you are posting. We tend to think down the road when you have become a serious shooter. Our inkling is to stop you from some of the mistakes we made, when we were just shooting 300 yards.

Yes we may over-do. It’s in our collective nature.

 

[Chanceterrill]

You don’t need that. You are converting. And it is not exactly 1 inch either. If you miss your intended point of impact, just measure with your reticle where you did hit. You don’t need inches at all. If you never convert, your life will be easier.

BTW, I was a builder for 25 years. I moved to designing parts for metric motorcycles. Knowing one language, in no way precludes you from learning and using other languages. When you are working SAE think SAE. When you are using Metric think metric or base 10. Same with MOA, inches and Mils.
Moa and mils are angular measurements. Inches are linear measurements. MOA and Mils have more in common.

I gotcha for sure! Man this is all I need, another hobby lol! I'm already an archery nut, gigging musician, avid hunter, work 50 to 60 hours a week, I'll never sleep again lol

In all seriousness, thank you so much for your insight, I actually learned alot shooting today, it may be lousy by your standards but for a simple country dude like me, 3/4 inches at 100 yards is great! anything sub moa out of a "entry" level ar15 with run of the mil barrel is good enough for me, I'm actually quite pleased with how the gun shot...... Now my old 3006 with handloads did that without blinking but there's no moving parts....

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I might try and learn both..... At this point, shooting groups and hunting from 300 yards in, I don't think learning either is really life or death, but usually when I get into something I tend to learn everything about it, so chances are I'll try to learn both at least enough to get by

Im not shooting at a level or distance to where I'll need to tape dope charts on my scope cover...... Maybe someday, for now I'm happy learning holdovers with 100 yard zero from 0 to 300 yards....... I like 100 yard zero because there's never a time where I hold under, it's either aim on or aim High.....hunting situations tend to happen fast so the less I have to think About the better lol

For sure. Right now it doesn't matter... but as all of us already know... this is how it starts... we. Are just trying to save you from having to switch scopes later on is all. If you don't really use either, then you might as well go with mil scopes just in case you do want to get into the competition rifle world or long range ect...

 

[Chanceterrill]

Good point. Remember where you are posting. We tend to think down the road when you have become a serious shooter. Our inkling is to stop you from some of the mistakes we made, when we were just shooting 300 yards.

Yes we may over-do. It’s in our collective nature.

This is why I came here to ask advice, I know you guys don't mess around!..... For a 1000 dollar ar 15 and a cheap 9x scope with factory ammo that may or may not be ideal for the gun, and a 20 year long time hunter but only 3 month semi serious shooter, is 3/4 moa good or pretty poop? In the ar world most seem to consider anything moa or better to be money, but to you guys that's probably child's play beginner stuff huh? Lol.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

This is why I came here to ask advice, I know you guys don't mess around!..... For a 1000 dollar ar 15 and a cheap 9x scope with factory ammo that may or may not be ideal for the gun, and a 20 year long time hunter but only 3 month semi serious shooter, is 3/4 moa good or pretty poop? In the ar world most seem to consider anything moa or better to be money, but to you guys that's probably child's play beginner stuff huh? Lol.

3/4 moa at 100 yds with an ar-15 is good shooting.

 

[Chanceterrill]

I

For sure. Right now it doesn't matter... but as all of us already know... this is how it starts... we. Are just trying to save you from having to switch scopes later on is all. If you don't really use either, then you might as well go with mil scopes just in case you do want to get into the competition rifle world or long range ect...

Suspect if I do get into that serious of shooting, knowing me, it won't be with this gun or this scope, it'll be a Wilson combat, dd or gieselle lower and upper, krieger service barrel and a night force scope! But sadly I'm nowhere near that level yet lol...... Woodchucks don't deserve to be shot with that lol......

 

[Chanceterrill]

3/4 moa at 100 yds with an ar-15 is good shooting.

Really? I knew for typical ar shooters it's like the holy grail but most those guys are into 3 gun and more pew pew pew stuff, you guys are like Tom berringer one shot one kill at a million yards lol..... To me that's way cooler ..... I guess I'm old school, bought an AR and I'm doing everything I can do to make it act and shoot like a bolt...... Heavy, long, hp scope, 2 stage trigger, bipod etc.

 

[Chanceterrill]

Good point. Remember where you are posting. We tend to think down the road when you have become a serious shooter. Our inkling is to stop you from some of the mistakes we made, when we were just shooting 300 yards.

Yes we may over-do. It’s in our collective nature.

So it seems like if I'm gonna get this scope I might as well pay the extra 200 for parralax and a bigger tube... Especially in the early morning and late night for yotes, that brighter picture is nice, and if I get the parralax I'll have one less thing I can try to blame for my inconsistencies lol

 

[Holliday]

3/4 moa at 100 yds with an ar-15 is good shooting.

Exactly right. Especially so with non-handloads. Hell if memory serves my coyote AR shoots PMC at about 2-2.5. My hand-loads are 5/8 .....

 

[Chanceterrill]

Exactly right. Especially so with non-handloads. Hell if memory serves my coyote AR shoots PMC at about 2-2.5. My hand-loads are 5/8 .....

Well that makes feel like I'm not a total failure at shooting at least!

Out of the four 5 shot groups, one was 5/8, one was 1 inch and 1/16 and the other two were 3/4, the inch and 1/16 was my fault, one shot broke when reticle was slightly high left, but I refuse to discount fliers, because I'm not only judging the gun but my ability to shoot it, if I did discount it, that group would have been 11/16"......

The 69 grain winchester match shot decent too, some groups being 7/8 but most are around 1.25......but my 1 in 8 twist seems to prefer the 77 grain match kings over the 69.....

Might be because it's a big sloppy 556 chamber and the oal is longer on the 77 so they hit the rifling sooner?

Idk but I'm re accumulating reloading equipment again and I'm starting off with the 77 grain matchking bullet...... Id like to set it on varget but I can't find it anywhere.....

May try cfe 233 and imr 4895, I heard that 4895 does really well with 69 through 80 grain bullets in 223

 

[Chanceterrill]

If you're going to shoot at 50 yards or less, definitely get a scope with adjustable parallax. You'll be glad you did.

One thing I did on one of my non-adjustable scopes to make sure my eye was centered was to manufacture a cover for the eyepiece with a small hole in it. It basically functioned as a peep sight. I did that for an Appleseed event, since I was shooting a 22LR at 25 yards (if you can find one of these events near you, I highly recommend it)

50 yard and less are very possible shots as this is kind of my multi purpose rifle..... So u would say spend 6 hundred instead of 4 for the parralax adjustment n 30 mm tube?

 

[johnnyvw]

From my experience, yes. It hurts a little paying the extra money, but not as much as wishing you had.

 

[Chanceterrill]

From my experience, yes. It hurts a little paying the extra money, but not as much as wishing you had.

What is the real difference between a 1 inch tube and a 30 mm

 

[Paradox]

Ar15 made by ruger, it's a ruger mpr.... 18 inch barrel, free floated, rifle gas, 4.5lb trigger 556 chamber, 3x9x40 vortex crossfire..... What what form issue could cause elevation issues? It does in general seem like my groups open up mainly top to bottom with occasional fliers off to the side....... And my groups usually have 3 shots touching then 2 that open it way up

It's really frustrating! I can shoot my buddies 243 and everytime I can print 5shot groups at 100 yards under an inch..... Usually they are 5/8 to 3/4 and when I do jerk a shot I know it, I'll call it....." I pulled low left etc.".

With the ar, it's like a surprise everytime I walk down to target! I'll think the groups gonna be great because everything felt perfect then find a 2 inch group! Or I'll think man I pulled a couple of those, n it'll be under an inch! I don't know if it's me or the scope or what but I've never had such unpredictable results

Whats the barrel profile? Mil, medium, varmint, bull? Std profile isn’t worth a shit once hot as the accuracy is out the window. As little as 10-12 rounds in a row is all it takes. To test do a 3-5 shot group cold, then empty thirty rounds rapidly, and then go back and try the cold group again and it will be off. Cool thirty minutes and the accuracy will magically return.

 

[Turkeytider]

My title is probably too long, I suck at the forum thing, any ways, I grew up hunting, shooting clay pigeons, and mainly owned bolt actions, got them to group 3 shots at 100 yards in an inch or 1.25..... Called it good, fast forward to now.... Bought my first ar15.... Way different accuracy..... On average with Hornady Frontier 68 grain hpbt, at 100 yards I shoot 1.75 inches..... Sometimes 1 inch, sometimes 2.5, but most groups are between 1 3/8 to 2 inches...... Win. Match 69 grain bthp, I can shoot a couple. 75 groups then turn around and shoot 2 inches but it averages more like 1.375 to 1.25 when factoring in those random 2 in. groups........ Shooting off magpul bipod, with bag in rear that I squeeze for height, gun is Ruger mpr 18inch barrel, 2 stage 4.5 lb trigger..... Vortex offset cantilever mount and vortex crossfire 2 3x9x40..... The scope doesn't adjust when I turn dials then all the sudden it jumps too far...... I dealt with this, today I was playing with hold overs and that caused me to shoot at 25 50 and my usual 100 yard..... 25 was kneeling using mag as a monopod..... Poi was 1.5 to 2 inches low...... 50 yards prone was right on? Should have been low right? Then shot at my zero that was always on (100 yards ) and it was 2 inches high! shot 3... 5 shot groups (I only shoot 5 shot groups now) all were standard 1.75 to 2 inches with same Frontier ammo...... Shot 2 more groups and they are back on the money....... What am I doing wrong? I try not to bug a bunch of people but I have read till I'm blue in the face and there is so much info about parralax, shadow? Cheekweld, shooting off mag, free recoil etc.... All that can apparantly change poi....... I'm ready to pull my hair out lol..... I almost bought a leupold today but thought I'd ask guys who can actually shoot what they think first..... Any help is appreciated, sorry to be so drawn out.

Makes shotgun shooting look like rather crude child`s play in comparison, don`t it?