Re: Just some equipment thoughts
<span style="color: #3333FF">Trevor,
You make some very valid points. ..Some I agree with and some I feel differently. Also, let me iterate here that nothing I say in reply is directed at you personally. </span>
I understand your stance on this completely. As with most things though, there is always other views and opinions. These views are not necessarily mine, but I do think they encompass a large amount of the members here.
I’m ok with varying opinions, it’s what makes the world go around.
I'm fortunate enough not to be one of those folks on a budget in regards to my shooting hobby. However, many are and their concern is to build their rifle or equipment bag as best they can with the funds they have. These people most likely aren't shooting matches, atleast not often, and don't see the select group of vendors who pony up and donate to the prize table. They could care a less about sport support. They want to get the most product for their available funds. This is the society we live in today.
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I agree here but feel this slightly misses the point. For example, if I’m getting an inexpensive scope, let’s say <$500. There are many Hide vendors who sell inexpensive scopes. I don’t need to buy an S&B or spend a lot of money to support a vendor. Another example would be a stock pack. The price between one and another may be only a couple of bucks. Is it worth a couple of bucks to support a Hide vendor?</span>
You take a new shooter for example. He wants a DBM for his new Rem 5R. He's already spent most of his budget on the rifle. He sees the Badger DBM for $350 and he sees the exact same product made by Brand X for $149. What do you think he's going to buy? He wants a DBM now, not in 2-3 months. He doesn't care about Badger, most likey knows very little about them. So, from his point of view, can you blame him?
<span style="color: #3333FF">No, I can’t blame him at all…but, I can protest when he comes along and says “my ‘X’ is just as good as your “Y” because I say so”. If you’re on a budget and can only afford what you can afford, I’m OK with that. I’m not OK with trying to justify your purchase by condemning other purchases as if the more expensive purchase was the result of being “taken”. Secondarily, there are vendor choices for bottom metal too.</span>
All the bullshit that was stirred up over the Atlasworx DBM deal is a perfect example. Yes it's a Badger copy, BUT has anyone had one single issue with one of them as far as function? Any of them broke or failed in any way? Im asking because I don't know. The new shooter looks at it like this: "it's a piece of machined aluminum".....and it is, however Badger wants double the price for their's. Do you think a new guy gives a rip about what Badger has put on prize tables?
<span style="color: #3333FF">I wasn’t necessarily thinking of the Atlasworx incident but it brings up a point. Can we as a society blame Walmart or any other store that sells a Chinese copy of American made products when we condone what amounts to “theft” by purchasing blatantly ripped off products? They may be the best thing in the world but they still ripped of Badger’s design and that’s not OK in my book. Make some kind of design change and call it your own and then rock it.</span>
On another note, why does badger feel thier product is worth $350? It's because people pay that price and don't question it. Obviously Atlasworkx made a decent product for half the cost......and still made a profit to keep them afloat so what are we getting when we pay the extra $150 for the badger? Is that the cost of a warm fuzzy feeling? Why pay twice the price for any item when a equal quality/value item is cheaper? This is Business and its not new.
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I can’t answer for Marty. I don’t know why he charges what he does. I don’t know how he justifies his pricing. But I do know that I feel in our capitalist society he can do what he wants as long as customers are willing to support him. If he gets too high, people won’t buy it. There are ample DBM’s that are not direct copies that can be had instead. Most, if not all, are of equal quality. So we can “vote” with our wallet. Now how much does the good will cost? I think that may be dependent on each individual shooter. But I think you can agree that there MUST be a value associated with vendor support.</span>
Again, I'm asking because when topics like this get brought up, they are usually squashed by Mod opinion rather than hard facts. This is understandable since many of this companys have supported this site for a long time.....there is feelings of loyalty there and rightfully so, just like GAP. New shooters just don't care what a company has done for this site or the sport. They don't feel obligated to bear that finacial burden. From their standpoint can you blame them?
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First, I didn’t make my post as a mod. I made it as an active member and comp shooter. Your statement here seems to me a type of “have my cake and eat it too” mentality on behalf of the new shooters. This site has grown for many reasons and I would venture to say almost all the vendors that have been around for a long time struggled very hard to succeed making difficult sacrifices. Now when a new generation of shooter comes along and says “I don’t give a shit”, it shows a very divisive attitude. Should all the hard work be thrust to the side and out of consideration just because his business is finally starting to grow? New shooters should at least be shown most of these vendors aren’t fly-by-night companies and have earned their business.</span>
Shooting at this level is not budget friendly and certainly isn't a poor Man's game. This site in itself is very much a clique. People want to fit in. They want DBM's and NF scopes, and Manners stocks just like all the "cool kids" have. They are going to acquire these items, or items like the cool ones, at the cheapest place possible. They are going to think of themselves and their own wants before they worry about always supporting a Hide vendor. No rant is ever going to change that. Yes, this is a problem, but on a much larger scale than just what we are discussing here.
<span style="color: #3333FF">I see what you’re saying here but I believe you might be missing my point. Let’s say for example you want a scope. You know nothing about optics and you don’t even have a defined budget yet. “John Doe” from “This Optics Company” steps up and says “give me a call, I’ll walk you through everything and you can make a decision”. Takes time out of his day, or evening, or family time, to try and teach you or at least narrow your choices and put you in the right direction. You decide on a scope that “This Optics Company” is a distributor for however his prices are 10% higher than other companies that sell the same scope. Was his time and customer service worth that additional 10%? As I said earlier we each have our price we will put on “good wil” but my immediate answer would be yes. </span>
Lastly, and this is my own thoughts and opinions here, the Vendors on this site certainly aren't starving to death. GAP is producing more rifles than ever. Triad and CS Tacticle are both growing. Liberty Optics opened a brick and mortar storefront. Badger, well I doubt he's having any problems paying his bills. Seekins has been growing by leaps and bounds with new products all the time. Manners has showed growth since the word go. All these vendors benefit greatly from this site.....from us. Yes, they donate both time and product towards the sport, but they are getting it back on a grand scale.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Yes, many of these companies are thriving and in my opinion good on them. Because I do know that many of them struggled and ONLY survived because they were here and really took great care of us. And like you and I and many that we know who believe in a good day’s pay for a good day’s work they are finally allowed to reap the benefits of their hard work. We still have the choice to not purchase from them which brings me to my next point…..</span>
I support most of these vendors as much as I possibly can if they are offering a product I want at the time. I enjoy supporting these vendors especially when i feel like they are offering a good product at a fair price. Will I buy another Badger DMB new? No, I won't. Will I continue to buy Manners stocks, certainly. Will I pick up a Badger used in the classifieds at a fair price, ofcourse.
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Although I named particular vendors in my initial post, those are not our only choices. For example if you don’t want to buy a new BO DBM, you may buy a Seekins, or someone else. But shouldn’t that “someone else” be a hide vendor? Stocks are another great example. I love Manner’s stocks. But if you don’t want one or can’t afford one there are a litany of other stocks available. You can purchase one of those and yet still be supporting a Hide vendor. </span>
Again, I see your point 100%, but most people on avarage just dont care. Someone just the other day posted on here that China steals our work because Americans are greedy. I agree whole heartedly. This isn't about "Buy American" so let's not even get off on that shit, but the greedy part is true. I'm not tryin to offend you or anyone else, but I'm just saying what alot of folks are thinking, but too scared to speak up. Your certeinly not wrong in your opinion, atleast I don't think you are, but as you well know.....opinions vary.
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I somewhat agree here. I am frustrated at many American workers and the entitlement mentality they have. With that being said, I don’t think the answer lies in the blatant slave labor and human rights abuses utilized by the Chinese to get their prices so low. It’s expensive to ship crap from China and to think they ship it here, charge a very low price, and still make a profit tells us their “overhead”, i.e. labor cost, is rock bottom. But that's for another discussion.
I respect your post and the time you took to present a legitimate position. All of our opinions vary and there are shades of grey for everything. We all have the power to “vote” with our wallets and I feel we should “vote” for Hide vendors when it’s feasible given a choice.</span>