Kestrel Question

[Southpaw357]

Ive done a lot of reading here but wanted to get input. I am faced with a decision: either buy the cadillac now (4500NV with AB) or a lesser model. If i buy the lesser model, it frees up cash for a few more accessories. And if i go the lesser route, i want the bare minimum for now. I can always upgrade to the 4500NV AB when i start shooting matches again.

My goal is to not use a pda or iphone. I will be using an impact databook and plan to use the adaptive quick cards sheets for my two calibers, 308 and 6.5 creed. These are basically like an FDAC for my loads. With these sheets, i believe i can get away with a kestrel 2500 to determine my firing solution. The other choice would be the 3500 which would give me humidity, but it seems like i don't need that. I know the 4000 gives me DA, but i don't think i need that with the data from the 2500 and the adaptive quick cards. So my question is, will i be good with the 2500 or should i get the 3500 for some reason? Thanks, Southpaw

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[ShtrRdy]

Humidity has a very small effect on trajectory. So if you believe you can use pressure and temperature with the cards to get you what you need, go for it. You probably have to have ammunition that provides a velocity that matches the cards.

Myself, I ended up using a Kestrel 4500 and a ballistic app on an iphone.

 

[Christopher Rance]

If your using DA type cards then you would want a meter that gives that. Yes those cards have a generic table to figure out your DA, but if your planning on running a few different systems and want the most accurate results then I would invest now for a 4500 AB kestrel.

 

[Southpaw357]

Kestrel Question

Humidity has a very small effect on trajectory. So if you believe you can use pressure and temperature with the cards to get you what you need, go for it. You probably have to have ammunition that provides a velocity that matches the cards.

Myself, I ended up using a Kestrel 4500 and a ballistic app on an iphone.

My ammo velocity will very closely match the cards. The way the cards are set up, i can use temperature and altitude (a factor of pressure) to get the DA and then the firing solution from the FDAC/AQC. From what i've read, this should get me on target or within .2 mils. Then i can log real dope in my databook. Unless i am mistaken.


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[Southpaw357]

Kestrel Question

If your using DA type cards then you would want a meter that gives that. Yes those cards have a generic table to figure out your DA, but if your planning on running a few different systems and want the most accurate results then I would invest now for a 4500 AB kestrel.

I appreciate your opinion, thank you. Are you saying that using measured temp and altitude from a 2500 to extrapolate DA from an FDAC/AQC chart and then getting the firing solution from that chart is substantially less accurate than getting a DA reading from the kestrel 4500 and then the firing solution with the built in AB ballistic solver? My understanding is that i would get extremely similar results from either approach.


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[Southpaw357]

Bump for the any of the ACTS guys, fdac users, nomad from impact databooks, etc. thanks!


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[XRanger08]

Invest in the 4500. I tell my customers all the time. If it is something you want in the long run, be patient and save the extra couple bucks so you get what you really wanted.

 

[nexusfire]

4500 with AB. Buy once cry once

 

[Matno]

I've never understood that saying. When I buy the very best, I never cry... virtually everything I've done that with in the past 30 years I still own, use, and love. I'd rather not have anything and rely on holding a finger in the wind while I'm saving up the extra money for what I really want.

 

[Southpaw357]

Kestrel Question

I can afford either. This is not my issue. My question is simply if i can use an FDAC/ACQ cards and a 2500 to get a ballistic solution that will be substantially similar to the result from a 4500NV AB. I understand the benefits and features of the 4500NV AB, but at this time is probably overkill for my intended use, which is practice at the range, and not competition. A 2500 and FDAC/ACQ cards seems like a fine way to get "rough" dope that i can use as a basis for collecting real dope in the field.


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[roggom]

I'm in the other camp, the 2500/fdac combo does what I need. Also I dont have to worry about the AAA batteries shitting and killing my Kestral. If I was ever getting paid to pull the trigger (Mil/Leo serious comps) I might look at the higher end units with ballistic data, but that just is not the case.

 

[Southpaw357]

I'm in the other camp, the 2500/fdac combo does what I need. Also I dont have to worry about the AAA batteries shitting and killing my Kestral. If I was ever getting paid to pull the trigger (Mil/Leo serious comps) I might look at the higher end units with ballistic data, but that just is not the case.

Thank you for confirming it is a workable solution.


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[Southpaw357]

Update: i ordered a 3500 for about 50 bucks more than the 2500. I realize humidity isnt a huge factor in ballistic calcs, but its measurable and can certainly affect shooter comfort so i felt humidity documentation would be worthy for my data book. If i have any worthwhile feedback after some use with this system, ill document those thoughts in this thread. Thanks.


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[NevadaZielmeister]

I can afford either. This is not my issue. My question is simply if i can use an FDAC/ACQ cards and a 2500 to get a ballistic solution that will be substantially similar to the result from a 4500NV AB. I understand the benefits and features of the 4500NV AB, but at this time is probably overkill for my intended use, which is practice at the range, and not competition. A 2500 and FDAC/ACQ cards seems like a fine way to get "rough" dope that i can use as a basis for collecting real dope in the field.


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Southpaw,

I have used the FDAC cards from ACS. Nothing against that company, but I was never able to get accurate elevation solutions with those cards past 600 meters. I was always off and always switching cards to try to "tune" the correct solution.

In came the Kestrel 4500 NV with Applied Ballistics with Bluetooth. I downloaded the custom curve from Brian Litz's library and man, I have NEVER had a miss due to elevation EVER!

When you consider that the batteries last for hundreds of hours, the unit is waterproof, and everything in one, it is hard to beat. You also have to remember that most of the places you go shooting do not have cell phone coverage, so your battery is drawn quicker. My iPhone did not even make it to noon when I was shooting the Cup this year. Thank goodness I did not have to really on that thing.

Once you get a Kestrel, you will wonder why you did not get it before today. Trust me.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Update: i ordered a 3500 for about 50 bucks more than the 2500. I realize humidity isnt a huge factor in ballistic calcs, but its measurable and can certainly affect shooter comfort so i felt humidity documentation would be worthy for my data book. If i have any worthwhile feedback after some use with this system, ill document those thoughts in this thread. Thanks.


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Oooppsss.. never mind the prior post then. Good luck sir!!

 

[Southpaw357]

Oooppsss.. never mind the prior post then. Good luck sir!!

Not a problem, and thanks for sharing your experience. I do understand the merits of the 4500NV with AB and do not doubt it is an amazing tool, especially when utilized with all of the supporting software. Im going to run with my setup for now which i believe will suit my specific needs (i.e. practice and data collection). If i end up wishing i went straight for the 4500NV AB after putting my system to the test over time, i will be the first to admit it!


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[DocUSMCRetired]

Just a heads up, even if your not going to use a tablet or phone to link up with it. The usb cable, and the bluetooth upgrade cost the same. The bluetooth function will allow you to use the profile loader software to create and edit profiles, and allow you to update it, when updates come out. So I know you don't plan to bluetooth it to a device, but at least give yourself the option to update the firmware, and use the profile loader.

 

[Southpaw357]

Just a heads up, even if your not going to use a tablet or phone to link up with it. The usb cable, and the bluetooth upgrade cost the same. The bluetooth function will allow you to use the profile loader software to create and edit profiles, and allow you to update it, when updates come out. So I know you don't plan to bluetooth it to a device, but at least give yourself the option to update the firmware, and use the profile loader.

Not sure if you were talking to me or Nevada, but if i do upgrade to the 4500NVAB from the 3500 in the future i will certainly take advantage of pc connectivity for the firmware updates and software features of the AB version.


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[JaysonF]

Why not just use ballistic AE on your phone? I have that on my iphone and I hardly ever use my kestrel. Gives me all the info dead on wherever I am. Only advantage I could see is to get the wind... Even then, that's not perfect because you will want the down range wind called.
However, I have a friend who has the kestrel with AB and he likes it. Just seems tough justifying the expense when my app is dead on and I still gotta call wind.

 

[Southpaw357]

Why not just use ballistic AE on your phone? I have that on my iphone and I hardly ever use my kestrel. Gives me all the info dead on wherever I am. Only advantage I could see is to get the wind... Even then, that's not perfect because you will want the down range wind called.
However, I have a friend who has the kestrel with AB and he likes it. Just seems tough justifying the expense when my app is dead on and I still gotta call wind.

I do not want to rely on or even use my iphone at the range. It drives me crazy messing with it and always seems to be a distraction (calls, emails, texts, etc). I have been using iSnipe for a while on my iphone which works fine for dope but i just don't prefer using my phone as a shooting tool. I would like to reserve it for emergency calls only. Besides, the battery drains too fast out in the AZ heat and it can get beat up real quick and i paid out the nose for my 5S at retail price to keep my grandfathered unlimited data package with Verizon. i really try to treat my iphone delicately. My goal, for better or for worse, is to have my databook and my kestrel (for temp, baro, altitude, and humidity) and nothing else requiring batteries. Just my preference. Oh and regarding the wind, I'm not getting this kestrel specifically for making wind calls. But it will be a nice aid in confirming my wind assumption at my shooting platform. Hope that clarifies.


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[DocUSMCRetired]

Why not just use ballistic AE on your phone? I have that on my iphone and I hardly ever use my kestrel. Gives me all the info dead on wherever I am. Only advantage I could see is to get the wind... Even then, that's not perfect because you will want the down range wind called.
However, I have a friend who has the kestrel with AB and he likes it. Just seems tough justifying the expense when my app is dead on and I still gotta call wind.

nVisti, LLC ? Articles

Theirs an article on wind that I would suggest you read. It breaks down how much influence the wind has at what ranges. ", the early portion of the trajectory has the biggest effect on the round,"

"If we break each range into thirds, how much do those segments contribute to the overall effect
of the wind? Figure 3 shows that breakdown: at 200m, the first third accounts for 56% of the
influence, the middle contributes 33%, with the third closest to the target roughly 12%. As the
distance increases to 1000m, the influence of the first third drops to 44%, the middle third
increases to 39%, and the last third grows to 17%. The front portion of the trajectory obviously
plays the most significant role in determining the bullet’s deflection, but with increasing range, the
middle section needs to be considered as well."

 

[JaysonF]

nVisti, LLC ? Articles

Theirs an article on wind that I would suggest you read. It breaks down how much influence the wind has at what ranges. ", the early portion of the trajectory has the biggest effect on the round,"

"If we break each range into thirds, how much do those segments contribute to the overall effect
of the wind? Figure 3 shows that breakdown: at 200m, the first third accounts for 56% of the
influence, the middle contributes 33%, with the third closest to the target roughly 12%. As the
distance increases to 1000m, the influence of the first third drops to 44%, the middle third
increases to 39%, and the last third grows to 17%. The front portion of the trajectory obviously
plays the most significant role in determining the bullet’s deflection, but with increasing range, the
middle section needs to be considered as well."

It is true the wind immediately in front is the most effective. The data however fails to account for the higher velocity of the round at the immediate area. That and depending on where you shoot, you could have several different winds on the way from the target. Some not 40 yards from the barrel. I'm fine with using the app for elevation and input for a 90 degree 5 mph wind (which is common here early - mid afternoons) and reading the wind along the way. Granted, I'm still (and always will be) a student of reading the wind, but unless you have kestrel readings at different spots, or flags at the point where wind is most likely to change, it'll still be imperfect. Even with all that data, with wind being so fluid, it would be tough to adjust given multiple gusting winds. I don't use my kestrel 4500 nv often, and it is purely a back up with my fdac.

 

[delfuego]

I got a used Kestrel 4000 for $120. It does DA. Print a few dope card with different DA's, check your DA when you arrive and you should be good to go. I usually leave it in the car during matches.

It can be fun and good practice to guess the wind and then pull out your Kestrel to see how close you are.

 

[Southpaw357]

I got a used Kestrel 4000 for $120. It does DA. Print a few dope card with different DA's, check your DA when you arrive and you should be good to go. I usually leave it in the car during matches.

It can be fun and good practice to guess the wind and then pull out your Kestrel to see how close you are.

I am new to DA. Question for you. I assume the DA reading calculated on your kestrel is highly accurate. Can DA be calculated at or near the same level of accuracy using a DA chart, as long as the data needed to extrapolate the DA from the chart on the X and Y access is accurate? To phrase in another way, if i wanted to make DA cards like you do, do i need the kestrel 4000 to get accurate DA calc to select my card, or could i use the 3500 and a chart to figure the DA and then select my card? Hope that makes sense.


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[delfuego]

DA is an accurate measurement, but it is a conglomerate of temperature, altitude and dew point. It should be used as an approximate for actual (real-time) conditions. We will print out drop/wind cards for several DA's and bring them to the match and pick the best. You can also do the same with just temp/alt/baro on JBM. Play with JBM and see if it reconciles with your current dope. If so you may not even need a Kestrel, just make a few cards for your local range and test them out. When I travel to a match I will look up the weather/alt/temp and try to create some cards for that range.

DA calculator: Density Altitude Calculator
JBM: JBM - Calculations - Trajectory

 

[Southpaw357]

DA is an accurate measurement, but it is a conglomerate of temperature, altitude and dew point. It should be used as an approximate for actual (real-time) conditions. We will print out drop/wind cards for several DA's and bring them to the match and pick the best. You can also do the same with just temp/alt/baro on JBM. Play with JBM and see if it reconciles with your current dope. If so you may not even need a Kestrel, just make a few cards for your local range and test them out. When I travel to a match I will look up the weather/alt/temp and try to create some cards for that range.

DA calculator: Density Altitude Calculator
JBM: JBM - Calculations - Trajectory

Thank you my friend


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[ridein4life]

I use the Kestral 2500 with Adaptive FDAC cards. works great for me.

 

[Southpaw357]

I use the Kestral 2500 with Adaptive FDAC cards. works great for me.

Thank you, that is reassuring.


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