Hunting & Fishing Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

TresMon

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[I have been at the PC for 5 hours writing this article. I MUST get away from the computer. i will edit for grammer etc. later. -TM ]

Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman.
A fun but educational look at terminal ballistic science.
by “TresMon”( ‘net name) Tres Monceret

[I received the following question in e-mail and it turn it sparked an article.Around here “articles happen.”]

“”Out of curiosity, how can a game warden tell if a deer was shot with a muzzleloader or a rifle?””


Well besides the obvious anybody would know- the entry wound size & shape- it's forensics. A low velocity big bullet is more of a mauler internally; it's just kind brute force mashing its way through the meat. A high velocity rifle bullet kills more actually by hydraulics than hemorrhage (blood loss/circulatory damage.) Most modern hunter knows that "energy kills" that is energy is the biggest baddest killer. They just don't know how to explain it.

All animals are mostly water. So think of this. Imagine hanging a water proof full sized punching bag up outside thats full of 3 day old mash taters. You know the ones that have increased their Viscosity some. Now shoot a scalpel through it. 

What did we observe? The bag did not move/swing much. It was not a dramatic looking event. We have a hole through both sides of our bag that is leaking pretty fast. And if we were to dissect the bag and Mash Taters we would see merely slits through the wound "CHANNEL". But the "hole" or wound channel is tight. Meaning from the elasticity of the M.Taters "meat" the channel drew back up on itself, not 100% but mostly.

There's your broad head,spear & Atlatl killed deer. (Yes spearing is STILL legal and actually STILL done in a few states. A few of my hard core wilderness survival friends do it.) This is death by hemorrhage alone, or bleeding out, internally & a little externally. Sure the deer experienced some energy, but no more than a major league batter getting beamed in the shoulder by a fast pitch. Not enough to kill or long term injure.

So now let's move to big bore pistols & muzzle loaders. So we shoot our hanging tater bag with a .357mag, .41 magnum .44 Magnum Etc. or a Front Stuffer.

Now we have energy doing some amount more of the killing than hemorrhage. And we have not just a wound channel now but also wound cavity. What did we observe? The front of the bag was displaced or caved in a good bit from the energy. The whole bag is swinging some back and forth. We have a small hole all the way through our bag that did not seal back up. This is our wound channel. But the front side of the hole or entry side is where our channel is larger than bullet diameter and it slowly tapers down as we move deeper through the channel. This is the PERMANENT wound cavity. To explain Temporary & Permanent wound channel I need to explain the hydraulic effect of a bullet.

The hydraulic effect of a bullet hitting the watery meat and core of a animal: Newton's law says "reckin for every tough lick thar's a equal & opposite nuther tough lick." So we observed in our Front Stuffer shot on the bag the surface of the bag was displaced. Thats energy from the bullet being dispersed into our target. So lets say we were shooting a .451" 45 cal. slug. If we shot a basically 1/2" piece of metal at the tater sack how come the displacement on the surface was so much larger in diameter than the slug? Energy!

Energy does amazing things. Enter the temporary wound cavity. When a moderate to very high energy round enters our taters (meat/flesh) the energy damages and destroys tissue far larger than the bullet diameter. Initially energy from the bullet "blows" a quite large cavity or space in the tissue. But it does not stay this size of a space. The immediate size of the empty space or cavity is called the Temporary cavity. From the amazing engineering God designed into flesh- due to the elasticity of the flesh it will attempt to shrink back down and come back together. So this big hole or cavity we blew into the near side of our tater sack will immediately begin to shrink. And again we learned this is temporary cavity. But we transferred such a large amount of energy into the flesh that we destroyed much of it. Due to this though it will shrink back down a good bit, it will not shrink all the way back down to the actual bullet diameter hole the bullet drilled into the meat. This is called the PERMANENT wound cavity. Here's a pretty good example of a temporary, permanent wound cavity and wound channel: [I'm referring to wound "channel" as the small bullet diameter hole that goes beyond the cavities.]
308WinchesterWOUNDCHANNEL.jpg





So why does the permanent cavity exist far larger than the actual diameter of the bullet that created it? Why does the Temp. Cavity not shrink all the way to the physical bullet diameter that passed through? Well we already said because the immediate tissue was destroyed but lets take a closer look. We'll recap for a second.

We shot a scalpel through our 100 lb. Mashed Tater filled punching bag. We ended up with a snug little leaking hole. This will kill the tater bag, but slower and it certainly will not be dramatic.

We shot our bag with a front stuffer. Cool. For a split second we caved in the front of the bag. The whole bag is swinging. More Cool. Now we got a little bitty "junior sized" foot ball shaped hole in the near side of the bag/taters and a 1/2" hole all the way through. Way cool.

Now let's shoot our tater bag deer simulator with an American favorite: the .270 Winchester. If we could see the hit in slow motion we would see the waves of energy rippling the surface of the bag. It literally look's like the concentric rings coming from a stone dropped in still water. We significantly displaced the surface of our tater sack. It's swinging pretty good overall. We go examine and see we have a full sized+ football shape "wound cavity" in the near side of tater sack and a bullet diameter hole the rest of the way through.

[cavity dimensions and "football size" references are not literal, nor dimensionally accurate nor have I ever shot “mashed taters.” They are merely used to illustrate to the readers mind familiar mediums and sizing/shapes, while conveying whats happening on/in target accurately overall. It's hard to draw a series of pictures in a readers mind, but in doing so with these familiar shapes/references I feel I have transferred the actual science and ongoings to the reader accurately.]

So what is happening in that instant the bullet transfers energy into the medium? That's the hydraulics we were talking about. Essentially a violent water column radiating out from the bullet entry point. 

From scalpel to bullet "energy wand":
So the scalpel made no real cavities at all. Our high velocity rifle round made a serious temporary and permanent wound cavity. So let me illustrate what this hydraulic water column does. Back to our hanging 100lb. mashed tater filled punching bag. This time we hang our tater sack in the bay of the high pressure car wash. We again are armed with our .270 Win but let's dump out our taters and fill our bag with well cooked green peas. These green peas represent cells. The individual cells tissue is made of. When we introduce energy into tissue from a blow the water contained goes the equal & opposite direction, vilonetly! Think of if we dropped $1.50 into the slot to activate the high pressure sprayer of the car wash. We stick the wand down into the peas and pull the trigger. What happens? The water pressure basically makes the immediate peas seemingly vanish, the closest mangle and the furthest effected by the water burst and leak.

Thats a good verbal picture of what is happening to tissue when massive amounts of energy are transferred from a bullet to flesh due to hydraulic energy forces, and it's quite understandable that as amazing as bodies are- some tissue, i.e. the permanent wound cavity does not recover.

So thus is the ways we actually kill targets. So what do we do wit this information? We wish we our military could shoot terrorists with expanding hunting type bullets! We can use our new found knowledge of energy transfer from bullets to mash taters to better select the weight and style of bullet we shoot. Bullet selection all depends the on the average size, weight and range of the mash tater sack we are hunting.

You see there are three schools of thought with hunters. The first is the antiquated and Neanderthal thought: "make the biggest "hole" [wound CHANNEL] you can -all the way through the animal to produce maximum amount of (blood) leakage."

And the second sounds so clean, sterile & harmless on the printed page:

-Transfer all the energy.-

Sounds ho-hum,boring.(But it’s incredibly devastating & violent!!!)

The third school got high in the bathroom and don’t care. 
They just like to hunt.

Think of this. A bullet moves because energy has been imparted to and into it. Once it leaves the bore pressure is relieved from the firing system and the bullet got what it gets and is now leaking energy slowly to the really low viscosity water we shoot through called air. If you ever have a conversation with a bullet it will refer to same as drag. If it runs out of energy it would stop forward motion in place, spent. (If there were no gravity.) There! You get it! Wait, you look uncertain. I'll give it to you: you want the bullet to stop. IN the target. Why? Transfer. Energy transfer. 100% wicked violent energy transfer. You see if your bullet regardless of caliber, diameter, weight or speed passes through the target and travels beyond, it did not give you it's all. Any energy the bullet had to travel beyond our tater sack was wasted, we could have dumped that left over energy into the mashed taters as well for even more/bigger car wash wand effect!!

So there it is- with a high velocity high energy round we want a complete energy dump into our wild free range 12 tined Tater Sac we so carefully stalked. Thats why there are so many bullets to choose from for a given caliber. Enter bullet (a.) design & (b.) weight...

Real world example. I know a well meaning green horn who was new to shooting, new to rifles and new to hunting. He went on a coyote sized furry predatorial tater sack hunt with a friend and was hooked. So he decides he needs a good rifle, camo and a few calls. Talking about his new love on the job a co-worker offered to sell him a like new ultra- light weight 300 Win Mag complete with scope, for a incredibly low price. "Because it will kick yur teeth out the guy said." So our young green horn figured 1. "He could take it" and two all that power would for sure blast a dog sized fur covered flea infested mange pocked Mashed Tater Sack into the next Siriometer or so. He took the rifle.

So Mr. G. Horn went and bought some 300WM ammo, on sale. Winchester 180 grain Power Point factory loads. A real world MOOSE load. (He did not do the math I'm sure, I'll do it for him: 3500 ft. lbs. of car wash wand effect at the muzzle.) Looking at the big shiney menacing ammo I'm sure Mr. Horn was sure it would blast the doggish creature for at least a siriometer!!

So after a while he calls me. “Man this thing really-REALLY kicks!” I chuckled having been there done that in my youth. I threaded his barrel and installed a nice muzzle break. He was really happy with the recoil reduction and off he went. Soon enough he made his first “I got one!” phone call to a buddy. But he was quick to tell me the critter just limped about 20 paces and died. No siriometer. I chuckled having been there and done that in my youth and explained bullet selection.

You see had if Mr. Horn had hand loaded him some little bitty 110 grain Sierra hollow points at a anemic (for the Win Mag with this bullet) 3200 fps, he would have opened up that critter like a book displaying it’s most every deep and inner thing, literally. True the little bullet would had a good bit less energy: 3200 lbs. But it would given Mr. G. Horn it’s all!
The little bullet would have disintegrated in the critter for a 100% energy dump, where as the Moose bullet that was actually used likely zipped right through with no “upset” commonly called expansion or mushrooming on behalf of the bullet in the 35 lb. target. After all that load was designed to hold together, burrow deep and energy dump in a dangerous big boned hardy built massive Tater Sac weighing upwards of 1700 pounds for the Alaskan-Yukon variety.

Speaking of bullet upset, their is fascinating engineering that goes into bullet design. You see that dumb piece of metal we call “bullet” has no intelligence nor on board computer but must juggle the depth-of-penetration/ energy dump act to perform it’s best. And to compound this complexity it must do it anywhere in an extreme velocity spread. If we shoot our massive moose tater sack and the bullet disintegrates on the shoulder muscle we have wounded him, he’ll run off and we may have lost him and wasted the meat & and if he succumbs to the wound the life. If it zips through him without hitting a vital organ we again have wounded him and likely lost and wasted him. Enter bullet engineering.
A bullet upsets and begins to expand. This ever increasing blunt frontal diameter increase increases the difficulty for the bullet to penetrate. This rate of expansion must be carefully controlled through inherent design to allow the bullet to expand slow enough so it can burrow 1. deep enough to get past the near side muscle and into the vital organs but 2. fast enough to not completely pass through the animal thereby wasting energy. That would be a feat of engineering if the bullet hit the mash tater sac at the same speed every time. But it’s always impacting at differing speeds. If we engage our 1700 pound marsh wading mashed tater sac at 220 yards the bullet will impact at far greater velocity than it will if fired from a long range hunter engaging our swamp tater at 1106 yards. Either way, the bullet must not under or over expand to penetrate sufficiently and energy dump. And amazingly they get It right most of the time!

In conclusion bigger is not always better in regards to quick, clean ethical kills wether the subject of discussion be “which cartridge” or “which bullet.”

Regards,
“TresMon”

<span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-style: italic">This article took considerable time & effort. It is presented here for free. Enjoy! However if anyone feels motivated to express appreciation a donation can be sent to the paypal account [email protected].
Thanks!
Tres</span></span>
 

lovetsx

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Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

Thank I always enjoy your lessons.
 

Powder_Burns

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

    So go with the best of both world and get bullets designed for controlled expansion, like Interbonds, Accubonds, Partitions, Triple Shocks, etc.

    (Unless you are hunting big, dangerous, thick skinned game) Over-expansion can be a problem when you mix those bullet types with high velocities and try to poke larger game like buffalo or moose. Too close in and a less than optimal shot can make a bullet completely flatten like a pancake. Result? Large and shallow wound cavity, pissed off game.
    Guys like Elmer Keith advocate the use of heavy blunt bullets on game of this sort to to reliably achieve adequate penetration. A 500gr solid (of proper construction) can shatter bone and pass through meat without deforming or riveting.
    Basically, know your game, and know what needs to be done ballistically to ensure clean and ethical kills.

    Generally, varmint bullets and expanding type projectiles are good on small to medium sized game, or thin skinned game like deer. You tend to destroy meat with bullets like that, so shot placement needs special consideration if you plan on harvesting any meat. These bullets have a tendency to completely blow up and not retain any weight. As I mentioned above, velocity can be an issue so if handloading or purchasing hunting ammunition it would be prudent to know the minimum velocity for reliable expansion, or at what velocity would your bullet just explode at.

    Medium to large game, controlled expansion is the way to go. Core-lokts, Accubonds, Partitions, etc. These bullets expand but try to retain a percentage of their mass to ensure adequate penetration.
    For heavy and dangerous game, a mixed bag really. Solids are desirable for elephant and buffalo. 100% weight retention and large surface area ensures the big permanent wound channels. The massive bullets will shatter bone and heavy muscle to reach vital organs. Big cats will succumb to soft points and expanding bullets better, due to their softer body construction.
     

    TOP PREDATOR

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    &#147;&#148;Out of curiosity, how can a game warden tell if a deer was shot with a muzzleloader or a rifle?&#148;&#148;
    </div></div>

    ....look at what type of a firearm the hunter is carrying?

    sorry 'bout that, didn't mean any harm, nice post.
     

    50calibercruiser

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    This was pretty good reading.

    I had the "unique" experience of being on location for a PR demo of the Dynamic Research Technology (DRT) bullet. You have probably seen them advertised in cheaper than dirt, if that tells you anything. Anyway, Harold Beal, the "inventor" of the bullet explained to the advertorial writers that this "new" bullet killed not by hydrostatic shock but by the sudden and complete lose of blood pressure caused by a massive wound cavity, no channel. The bullet, if you are curious, is a tin/copper mixture in a thin copper jacket. The premise is when a fluid enters the hollow point it causes the bullet to become off balance and come a part extremely violently. But, the bullet will pass through bone without opening. All this seems to me like shock.

    At the end of the deal I kind of felt like the guy was trying to sell snake oil.

    Is there any thoughts on this?

    I will add that Louise and Irlene Mandrell are their spoke persons. Louise, no. Irlene, yes heh heh heh.

    I say "unique" because most of the people there were less than fun to be around.

    "inventor" because it seems to me like this is a repackaged Barnes varmint grenade.

    "new" see above.
     

    TresMon

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    Thanks guys.

    Yeah Coldbore you know you got it really bad when you stop reading your book each night on common numbers instead of using a book mark 22. 223. 243. 357 416.. the bibles really cool: 3006, 4570...

    lol.
     

    coldboremiracle

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


    Yeah Coldbore you know you got it really bad when you stop reading your book each night on common numbers instead of using a book mark 22. 223. 243. 357 416.. the bibles really cool: 3006, 4570...

    lol. </div></div>

    Thats right!! I'm the first to point that crazy shit out at work. Seems like there is a caliber for every damn number in some combination or another.When I deal with lots of numbers at once, thats the best way for me to remember.
     

    Tripwire

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    I'm not gonna argue this much, but I quit reading when I hit the word "hydraulic". If your theory of hydraulics being the actual killer is correct, then a gut shot animal should fall over stone dead just as fast as a lung/heart shot one. I mean they suffer the same overall hydraulic shock as a good lung hit does, no? Same water pond ripple cell damaging effect, yada, yada, yada. Sorry, I'm only a layman and all, but the logic doesn't wash with me.

    My youngest gut shot a deer this year, and we head shot it to put it down after a bit of a chase. When we opened it up the lungs/heart were in pristine condition and no evidence that any sort of hydraulic voodoo caused them to miss a single beat via any magic cell destruction. In fact it was a great lesson for him regarding bullet placement. That deer was full of the will to live until the CNS was compromised via smoking the brain pan. A body hit must be in the vitals for death to occur quickly, and the result is hemorrhage/loss of blood pressure, which ceases the brain to function...

    Put a good bullet through the vitals, train wreck the life support system by rendering it inoperable via slow moving big bullet or fast moving small bullet, and the animal dies quickly. Personally I like a fast moving TSX to do that, which completely debunks the total energy dump BS time after time. Hole in, hole out, blood everywhere, and jello in the chest cavity....pretty simple, in layman's terms, and didn't take 5 hours to explain.
     

    Austan

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    An internal shock wave is created when the animal is shot. It doesn't travel far enough to do damage in the heart when shot in the gut. This (the shock wave) is plainly visible in the picture. I'm not sure if the word "hydraulic" is the best word for it but it does happen. I shot a buck from my stand a few years back, the bullet hit his brisket and deflected downward not entering the deer at all. It simply tore a quarter size piece of hide off, he ran 35 yards and died the same as many deer I've shot when the heart lungs are pasted. The internals looked fine but he was dead none the less. I doubt it scared him to death.
     

    TresMon

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    Tripwire,

    Exactly like Austan said. And if you had not stopped reading my yarn at "hydraulic" you'd probably be able to put two and two together in your head- the hitting the "guts" would not cause hardly any bullet "upset" and there would be little or no increase in bullet "frontal area" and thereby very little "energy" or "hydraulic" tissue damage.

    However, shot placement IS imperative, (period) and certianly a moral obligation of the hunter.
     

    TresMon

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    , and jello in the chest cavity....pretty simple, in layman's terms,. </div></div>


    Jello er.. gelled tissue? Well there's your "car wash wand effect" at the cellular level.

    Tripwire,

    Exactly like Austan said. And if you had not stopped reading my yarn at "hydraulic" you'd probably be able to put two and two together in your head- the hitting the "guts" would not cause hardly any bullet "upset" and there would be little or no increase in bullet "frontal area" and thereby very little "energy" or "hydraulic" tissue damage.

    However, shot placement IS imperative, (period) and certianly a moral obligation of the hunter. Not to throw off on youth, I have made bad shots on deer as well in the past. The young ones learn and grow and become better shooters. More power to the son and congrats on the harvest.

    I never said shoot a deer in the butt and his tongue will pop like a balloon from energy. It's a localized event... hence the size references im my article that you probably did not read.
     

    Tripwire

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Jello er.. gelled tissue? Well there's your "car wash wand effect" at the cellular level.

    </div></div>

    Yeah, whatever dude....

    Like I said I'm not gonna argue this much, you seem to want the corner on that......

    All you are doing is clarifying HOW a high powered rifle bullet makes something bleed, that's it, that's all, yada, yada, yada. Sure, it is by far and wide more catostrophic (mean, nasty, scary) and in most cases faster than hemorrhage caused by a bladed instrument, but you are still only dealing with HOW something is made to bleed via GSW. Ultimately, all you can be correct about is that a high powered rifle bullet kills faster than a scalpel when both are placed through vitals....not too hard for most average idiots to figure out.

    Stop the heart with electrical shock and the subject continues to LIVE until the brain runs out of oxygen. Stop the lungs by filling them with water and the subject continues to LIVE until the brain runs out of oxygen. Rupture a main artery and the subject continues to LIVE until the brain runs out of oxygen. Shoot a messy hole in the boiler room with a rifle bullet and the subject continues to LIVE until the brain runs out of oxygen. Sorry, it ain't your magic ripples that actually cause the death. It, and the actual metal to meat contact, may facilitate the hemorrhage and cause extensive bleeding, but so won't a minivan, or too many bottles of whiskey......

    Within the scope of gunshot trauma, DEATH, ultimately comes from a sudden loss of vascular blood flow due to extensive hemorrhaging of vital organs, and the inevitable loss of oxygen to the brain....unless of course you are <span style="text-decoration: line-through">shooting</span> missing them in the brisket.

    Within the context of your supporting argument is the "complete energy dump" BS. Please explain then how my little 85 grain TSX's, which have impacted a large number and variety of mammal/aves tissue samples (deer/russian boar/coyote/turkey/crow/groundhog/etc),at a wide array of ranges and thus a wide array of impact speeds....will EVERY time punch a 6mm hole in, destroy the vital organs in it's path, and then punch a quarter sized hole on exit, and the animal expires almost immediately?

    Doesn't this single bullet design alone debunk your total engery dump assessment, and thus piss all over your theory? From my layman's point of view, that's pretty much NOT a total dump of the energy, and the permanent wound cavity is actually rather small, yet death still occured post haste.

    By all means, don't feel obligated to respond. I already know that you are obviously right by default, and I'm forever wrong.

    Peace, out.......

     

    TresMon

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    Trip,

    Your happy I'm happy.

    Merry Christmas!
    Tres
     

    Tripwire

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    And a Happy New Year...!!
     

    Austan

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the la

    It wasn't a miss trip, it was a straight on shot. I've made the same shot probably a dozen times from that stand (twice this season). How it deflected downward is beyond me, it certainly wasn't poor placement, if it continued through the brisket into the chest cavity the heart would be paste like many others before and after. Just wanted to clear that up.
     

    Tripwire

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    I was just pickin' at ya anyway....<grin>
     

    Austan

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the la

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was just pickin' at ya anyway....<grin></div></div>

    I figured but it got me thinking if someone read that and thought broadside... well, that'd pretty much be a miss. I put a lot of effort into ethical kills, even to the point if I hunt with somebody who has piss poor marksmanship they get lessons before I go int the field with them again.
     

    ceylonc

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the la

    Great write up! Thanks for taking the time to share.
     

    TresMon

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    No worries. Thanks guys.
     

    killahog

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    Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts TresMon
     

    Dylan in AZ

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the la

    You should really consider writing a book, I think i'd buy it
    smile.gif


    Great read, I do have one question though:
    Awhile back I read somewhere that if you put a bullet through the animals heart (lets say a deer taking a 30 caliber bullet expanding uniformly) as the heart beats, it will cause hydrostatic shockwaves to destroy many blood vessels and sometimes send the shock straight to the animal's brain resulting in an instant death.

    Is there any validity in this? It made sense to me when i read it but i know alot of people make things up based on what they "think" happens.

    If you could either confirm or deny this story i would be greatly appreciative.

    Thanks,
    Dylan
     

    JJ_Miller

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    Terror, the blood vessels would rupture before they could send enough pressure to the brain to cause damage ( according to my Vet at least, and he hunts alot )................JJ
     

    Dylan in AZ

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    Thanks for the clairification there JJ, does the same apply for major arteries like the jugular and such as that?
     

    JJ_Miller

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the la

    Terror, my brother-in-law is a MD, according to him enough pressure could be pumped thru the major arteries to " overpressure " the smaller veins in the brain which in turn would rupture causing damage. But death from this would be a hit or miss kinda thing ( no pun intended ) depending on which vessels rupture.............JJ
     

    spartan67

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the la

    Or just shoot'em in the head and be done with it! no fuss, no mess!
     

    TresMon

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the la

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spartan67</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Or just shoot'em in the head and be done with it! no fuss, no mess!</div></div>

    A very interesting event on an archery hunt! Ask me how I know! ; ]
     

    FranckB

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the la

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never said shoot a deer in the butt and his tongue will pop like a balloon from energy.</div></div>
    THAT is funny, ROTFLOL !
    I think that a good bullet is a mix of weight to go through the body, speed for the shockwave and good placement to lead to death wathever the conditions (I live in Europe, where the hunting methods are different, compared to USA and Canada, you usually shoot still animals, sometimes at long range, in Europe too but most boars are shot running at short distances, we prefer lighter and faster bullets for still animals, and heavier and slower bullets for running animals, 7x64 VS 9.3x62 or 9.3x74, for the same game, depending on how it's shot. But I do not like shooting a running animal, hunting means respect and a carefully aimed shot at a still animal is the best way to have a clean death, IMHO.). I use a .300 WinMag, enough weight, enough speed, enough accuracy and until now (hoping it will continue this way) they were all clean instant kills with very little meat damages.
     

    still_N_29palms

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    Good reading, the exception to this is the millitary version of the FN-57. that little round is some how enginered to penitrate hard objects(metal, armor, brick, ect.) and get harder in the process. But like was said in another post, once it hits a geletionus mass, it seperates causing masssive trama and wound cavities.
     

    still_N_29palms

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not gonna argue this much, but I quit reading when I hit the word "hydraulic". If your theory of hydraulics being the actual killer is correct, then a gut shot animal should fall over stone dead just as fast as a lung/heart shot one. I mean they suffer the same overall hydraulic shock as a good lung hit does, no? Same water pond ripple cell damaging effect, yada, yada, yada. Sorry, I'm only a layman and all, but the logic doesn't wash with me.

    My youngest gut shot a deer this year, and we head shot it to put it down after a bit of a chase. When we opened it up the lungs/heart were in pristine condition and no evidence that any sort of hydraulic voodoo caused them to miss a single beat via any magic cell destruction. In fact it was a great lesson for him regarding bullet placement. That deer was full of the will to live until the CNS was compromised via smoking the brain pan. A body hit must be in the vitals for death to occur quickly, and the result is hemorrhage/loss of blood pressure, which ceases the brain to function...

    Put a good bullet through the vitals, train wreck the life support system by rendering it inoperable via slow moving big bullet or fast moving small bullet, and the animal dies quickly. Personally I like a fast moving TSX to do that, which completely debunks the total energy dump BS time after time. Hole in, hole out, blood everywhere, and jello in the chest cavity....pretty simple, in layman's terms, and didn't take 5 hours to explain. </div></div>

    Maby you should have kept reading, if this helps he did refer to football style wound and trama path. So you kids little gut shot was too far from the "footbal shaped" trama area. The article never said forget about bullet placement. Nor was it talking about an all powerful bullet that transfers energy through the entire body. What you sir are talking about in essence is if I drop a rock into the ocean at Cali, it will be a tsunami in Japan. Sorry nowhere does this perpetual energy exist ( except for theoryists and their "CHAOS THEORY"). Unfortunatly we dont have acces to a "CHAOS BULLET".
    While you are at it look up ballistic tests in youtube. You will see the hydrolic effect through the gelitan. How about this, do a little expirment for yourself. Take three 1 gallon and three 5gallon buckets filled with water and set it at 50 yards. Shoot a set with a .22 the second set with a .270 or 30-06, and the third set with a shotgun slug. and watch the effect of the hydrolic shock wave out the top of the buckets. PS Hydroshocks was so named cause of extreamly rapid expansion causing a tremendous shockwave. However shoting large dogs(wild) with these did not kill as well or cause as much trama as a regular hollow point.
    By the way the BARNS TSX bullet opperates on this same principle. Maximum bullet expansion as fast as possible to produce a maximum shock value. Inside gelitan tests the maximum wound cavity starts a 2" in and stops at 8" in ( I looked it up). However being all copper it also retains 99.99% of its weight to allowing any unspent energy to carry the pill through the animal creating a wound channel double to 2/3 larger than the original bullet diameter again causing rippling or shock waves through the entire wound cavity. However the maximum wound cavity is not as large as conventional lead bullets. Everything you tried to dispute in the article was once again reinforced by your ignorant knowledge of basic principals (and any commonsence) of energy and energy transfer.
    The article is correct in every aspect and the author did a excelent job in combining real world revelance to the tecnicalities of bullet expansion and energy transfer. In short, he allowed the reader to relate to things he already new about in the readers little world. Everyone has ate or played with their mashed or creamed potatoes at the dinner table. We are all familier of their viscosity and texture. We all can visualize seeing them in a plastic or punching bag.
    Excelent article maby some will learn something about choosing the correct bullet for the correct application. Those too pigheaded to read the entire article and focus on the "what I think I know" will never get the true bennifits of this article. I sir thank you for the read.
     

    TresMon

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman


    Smith,

    Thanks for the kind words and for backing me up!
    Tres
     

    still_N_29palms

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    Your welcome, and for others and to Tripwire, sorry for the rant if I was too mean on my post, I blame me and my lack of nicotine. I am after all quitting.
     

    Stick Around

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    [I have been at the PC for 5 hours writing this article. I MUST get away from the computer. i will edit for grammer etc. later. -TM ]

    Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman.
    A fun but educational look at terminal ballistic science.
    by “TresMon”( ‘net name) Tres Monceret

    [I received the following question in e-mail and it turn it sparked an article.Around here “articles happen.”]

    “”Out of curiosity, how can a game warden tell if a deer was shot with a muzzleloader or a rifle?””


    Well besides the obvious anybody would know- the entry wound size & shape- it's forensics. A low velocity big bullet is more of a mauler internally; it's just kind brute force mashing its way through the meat. A high velocity rifle bullet kills more actually by hydraulics than hemorrhage (blood loss/circulatory damage.) Most modern hunter knows that "energy kills" that is energy is the biggest baddest killer. They just don't know how to explain it.

    All animals are mostly water. So think of this. Imagine hanging a water proof full sized punching bag up outside thats full of 3 day old mash taters. You know the ones that have increased their Viscosity some. Now shoot a scalpel through it. 

    What did we observe? The bag did not move/swing much. It was not a dramatic looking event. We have a hole through both sides of our bag that is leaking pretty fast. And if we were to dissect the bag and Mash Taters we would see merely slits through the wound "CHANNEL". But the "hole" or wound channel is tight. Meaning from the elasticity of the M.Taters "meat" the channel drew back up on itself, not 100% but mostly.

    There's your broad head,spear & Atlatl killed deer. (Yes spearing is STILL legal and actually STILL done in a few states. A few of my hard core wilderness survival friends do it.) This is death by hemorrhage alone, or bleeding out, internally & a little externally. Sure the deer experienced some energy, but no more than a major league batter getting beamed in the shoulder by a fast pitch. Not enough to kill or long term injure.

    So now let's move to big bore pistols & muzzle loaders. So we shoot our hanging tater bag with a .357mag, .41 magnum .44 Magnum Etc. or a Front Stuffer.

    Now we have energy doing some amount more of the killing than hemorrhage. And we have not just a wound channel now but also wound cavity. What did we observe? The front of the bag was displaced or caved in a good bit from the energy. The whole bag is swinging some back and forth. We have a small hole all the way through our bag that did not seal back up. This is our wound channel. But the front side of the hole or entry side is where our channel is larger than bullet diameter and it slowly tapers down as we move deeper through the channel. This is the PERMANENT wound cavity. To explain Temporary & Permanent wound channel I need to explain the hydraulic effect of a bullet.

    The hydraulic effect of a bullet hitting the watery meat and core of a animal: Newton's law says "reckin for every tough lick thar's a equal & opposite nuther tough lick." So we observed in our Front Stuffer shot on the bag the surface of the bag was displaced. Thats energy from the bullet being dispersed into our target. So lets say we were shooting a .451" 45 cal. slug. If we shot a basically 1/2" piece of metal at the tater sack how come the displacement on the surface was so much larger in diameter than the slug? Energy!

    Energy does amazing things. Enter the temporary wound cavity. When a moderate to very high energy round enters our taters (meat/flesh) the energy damages and destroys tissue far larger than the bullet diameter. Initially energy from the bullet "blows" a quite large cavity or space in the tissue. But it does not stay this size of a space. The immediate size of the empty space or cavity is called the Temporary cavity. From the amazing engineering God designed into flesh- due to the elasticity of the flesh it will attempt to shrink back down and come back together. So this big hole or cavity we blew into the near side of our tater sack will immediately begin to shrink. And again we learned this is temporary cavity. But we transferred such a large amount of energy into the flesh that we destroyed much of it. Due to this though it will shrink back down a good bit, it will not shrink all the way back down to the actual bullet diameter hole the bullet drilled into the meat. This is called the PERMANENT wound cavity. Here's a pretty good example of a temporary, permanent wound cavity and wound channel: [I'm referring to wound "channel" as the small bullet diameter hole that goes beyond the cavities.]
    308WinchesterWOUNDCHANNEL.jpg





    So why does the permanent cavity exist far larger than the actual diameter of the bullet that created it? Why does the Temp. Cavity not shrink all the way to the physical bullet diameter that passed through? Well we already said because the immediate tissue was destroyed but lets take a closer look. We'll recap for a second.

    We shot a scalpel through our 100 lb. Mashed Tater filled punching bag. We ended up with a snug little leaking hole. This will kill the tater bag, but slower and it certainly will not be dramatic.

    We shot our bag with a front stuffer. Cool. For a split second we caved in the front of the bag. The whole bag is swinging. More Cool. Now we got a little bitty "junior sized" foot ball shaped hole in the near side of the bag/taters and a 1/2" hole all the way through. Way cool.

    Now let's shoot our tater bag deer simulator with an American favorite: the .270 Winchester. If we could see the hit in slow motion we would see the waves of energy rippling the surface of the bag. It literally look's like the concentric rings coming from a stone dropped in still water. We significantly displaced the surface of our tater sack. It's swinging pretty good overall. We go examine and see we have a full sized+ football shape "wound cavity" in the near side of tater sack and a bullet diameter hole the rest of the way through.

    [cavity dimensions and "football size" references are not literal, nor dimensionally accurate nor have I ever shot “mashed taters.” They are merely used to illustrate to the readers mind familiar mediums and sizing/shapes, while conveying whats happening on/in target accurately overall. It's hard to draw a series of pictures in a readers mind, but in doing so with these familiar shapes/references I feel I have transferred the actual science and ongoings to the reader accurately.]

    So what is happening in that instant the bullet transfers energy into the medium? That's the hydraulics we were talking about. Essentially a violent water column radiating out from the bullet entry point. 

    From scalpel to bullet "energy wand":
    So the scalpel made no real cavities at all. Our high velocity rifle round made a serious temporary and permanent wound cavity. So let me illustrate what this hydraulic water column does. Back to our hanging 100lb. mashed tater filled punching bag. This time we hang our tater sack in the bay of the high pressure car wash. We again are armed with our .270 Win but let's dump out our taters and fill our bag with well cooked green peas. These green peas represent cells. The individual cells tissue is made of. When we introduce energy into tissue from a blow the water contained goes the equal & opposite direction, vilonetly! Think of if we dropped $1.50 into the slot to activate the high pressure sprayer of the car wash. We stick the wand down into the peas and pull the trigger. What happens? The water pressure basically makes the immediate peas seemingly vanish, the closest mangle and the furthest effected by the water burst and leak.

    Thats a good verbal picture of what is happening to tissue when massive amounts of energy are transferred from a bullet to flesh due to hydraulic energy forces, and it's quite understandable that as amazing as bodies are- some tissue, i.e. the permanent wound cavity does not recover.

    So thus is the ways we actually kill targets. So what do we do wit this information? We wish we our military could shoot terrorists with expanding hunting type bullets! We can use our new found knowledge of energy transfer from bullets to mash taters to better select the weight and style of bullet we shoot. Bullet selection all depends the on the average size, weight and range of the mash tater sack we are hunting.

    You see there are three schools of thought with hunters. The first is the antiquated and Neanderthal thought: "make the biggest "hole" [wound CHANNEL] you can -all the way through the animal to produce maximum amount of (blood) leakage."

    And the second sounds so clean, sterile & harmless on the printed page:

    -Transfer all the energy.-

    Sounds ho-hum,boring.(But it’s incredibly devastating & violent!!!)

    The third school got high in the bathroom and don’t care. &#8232;They just like to hunt.

    Think of this. A bullet moves because energy has been imparted to and into it. Once it leaves the bore pressure is relieved from the firing system and the bullet got what it gets and is now leaking energy slowly to the really low viscosity water we shoot through called air. If you ever have a conversation with a bullet it will refer to same as drag. If it runs out of energy it would stop forward motion in place, spent. (If there were no gravity.) There! You get it! Wait, you look uncertain. I'll give it to you: you want the bullet to stop. IN the target. Why? Transfer. Energy transfer. 100% wicked violent energy transfer. You see if your bullet regardless of caliber, diameter, weight or speed passes through the target and travels beyond, it did not give you it's all. Any energy the bullet had to travel beyond our tater sack was wasted, we could have dumped that left over energy into the mashed taters as well for even more/bigger car wash wand effect!!

    So there it is- with a high velocity high energy round we want a complete energy dump into our wild free range 12 tined Tater Sac we so carefully stalked. Thats why there are so many bullets to choose from for a given caliber. Enter bullet (a.) design & (b.) weight...

    Real world example. I know a well meaning green horn who was new to shooting, new to rifles and new to hunting. He went on a coyote sized furry predatorial tater sack hunt with a friend and was hooked. So he decides he needs a good rifle, camo and a few calls. Talking about his new love on the job a co-worker offered to sell him a like new ultra- light weight 300 Win Mag complete with scope, for a incredibly low price. "Because it will kick yur teeth out the guy said." So our young green horn figured 1. "He could take it" and two all that power would for sure blast a dog sized fur covered flea infested mange pocked Mashed Tater Sack into the next Siriometer or so. He took the rifle.

    So Mr. G. Horn went and bought some 300WM ammo, on sale. Winchester 180 grain Power Point factory loads. A real world MOOSE load. (He did not do the math I'm sure, I'll do it for him: 3500 ft. lbs. of car wash wand effect at the muzzle.) Looking at the big shiney menacing ammo I'm sure Mr. Horn was sure it would blast the doggish creature for at least a siriometer!!

    So after a while he calls me. “Man this thing really-REALLY kicks!” I chuckled having been there done that in my youth. I threaded his barrel and installed a nice muzzle break. He was really happy with the recoil reduction and off he went. Soon enough he made his first “I got one!” phone call to a buddy. But he was quick to tell me the critter just limped about 20 paces and died. No siriometer. I chuckled having been there and done that in my youth and explained bullet selection.

    You see had if Mr. Horn had hand loaded him some little bitty 110 grain Sierra hollow points at a anemic (for the Win Mag with this bullet) 3200 fps, he would have opened up that critter like a book displaying it’s most every deep and inner thing, literally. True the little bullet would had a good bit less energy: 3200 lbs. But it would given Mr. G. Horn it’s all!
    The little bullet would have disintegrated in the critter for a 100% energy dump, where as the Moose bullet that was actually used likely zipped right through with no “upset” commonly called expansion or mushrooming on behalf of the bullet in the 35 lb. target. After all that load was designed to hold together, burrow deep and energy dump in a dangerous big boned hardy built massive Tater Sac weighing upwards of 1700 pounds for the Alaskan-Yukon variety.

    Speaking of bullet upset, their is fascinating engineering that goes into bullet design. You see that dumb piece of metal we call “bullet” has no intelligence nor on board computer but must juggle the depth-of-penetration/ energy dump act to perform it’s best. And to compound this complexity it must do it anywhere in an extreme velocity spread. If we shoot our massive moose tater sack and the bullet disintegrates on the shoulder muscle we have wounded him, he’ll run off and we may have lost him and wasted the meat & and if he succumbs to the wound the life. If it zips through him without hitting a vital organ we again have wounded him and likely lost and wasted him. Enter bullet engineering.
    A bullet upsets and begins to expand. This ever increasing blunt frontal diameter increase increases the difficulty for the bullet to penetrate. This rate of expansion must be carefully controlled through inherent design to allow the bullet to expand slow enough so it can burrow 1. deep enough to get past the near side muscle and into the vital organs but 2. fast enough to not completely pass through the animal thereby wasting energy. That would be a feat of engineering if the bullet hit the mash tater sac at the same speed every time. But it’s always impacting at differing speeds. If we engage our 1700 pound marsh wading mashed tater sac at 220 yards the bullet will impact at far greater velocity than it will if fired from a long range hunter engaging our swamp tater at 1106 yards. Either way, the bullet must not under or over expand to penetrate sufficiently and energy dump. And amazingly they get It right most of the time!

    In conclusion bigger is not always better in regards to quick, clean ethical kills wether the subject of discussion be “which cartridge” or “which bullet.”

    Regards,
    “TresMon”

    <span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-style: italic">This article took considerable time & effort. It is presented here for free. Enjoy! However if anyone feels motivated to express appreciation a donation can be sent to the paypal account [email protected].
    Thanks!
    Tres</span></span>




















    </div></div>


    A verbose goatphuck,compiled obviously...by someone who don't spill much blood.

    Pretty deep in humor though.
     

    patlaprade01

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

    Thanks for the time and effort on the post. Wish I would have read this years ago when I started hunting. Instead I was taught that you shoot the biggest gram possible and learned the hard way. Old timers were set in their ways. Spending years of playing with different ammo and learning the effects of different bullets has made hunting more fun and now I'm trying to pass that thought process to my kids.
     

    KJMOC

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    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

    I don't know TresMon nor am I familiar with his work, education or experience. However, DocGKR is highly regarded as one of the top experts in the areas of wound ballistic research. Here is writings on basic wound ballistic terminal performance. I suggest everyone read this and anything else you can get your hands on by this man. All credit goes to DocGKR as this is his original unedited work. I believe he approves of this being posted as long as credit is attributed correctly however, if there is a problem, please remove.
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts
    The last 25 years of modern wound ballistic research has demonstrated yet again what historical reports have always indicated--that there are only two valid methods of incapacitation: one based on psychological factors and the other physiological damage. People are often rapidly psychologically incapacitated by minor wounds that are not immediately physiologically incapacitating. Psychological factors are also the reason people can receive severe, even non-survivable wounds and continue functioning for short periods of time. Up to fifty percent of those individuals rapidly incapacitated by bullet wounds are probably incapacitated for psychological rather than physiological reasons. Psychological incapacitation is an extremely erratic, highly variable, and completely unpredictable human response, independent of any inherent characteristics of a particular projectile.

    The degree and rapidity of any physiological incapacitation is determined by the anatomic structures the projectile disrupts and the severity of the tissue damage caused by the bullet. Physiologically, immediate incapacitation or death can only occur when the brain or upper spinal cord is damaged or destroyed. The tactical reality is that in combat, opportunities for military personnel to take precisely aimed shots at the CNS of enemy combatants is rare due to high stress unexpected contact marked by rapid fleeting movements, along with frequent poor visibility on the battlefield including use of cover and concealment. Thus the reduced likelihood of frequent planned CNS targeting in combat conditions. Absent CNS damage, circulatory system collapse from severe disruption of the vital organs and blood vessels in the torso is the only other reliable method of physiological incapacitation from small arms. If the CNS is uninjured, physiological incapacitation is delayed until blood loss is sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen. Multiple hits may be needed before an individual is physiologically incapacitated. An individual wounded in any area of the body other than the CNS may physiologically be able to continue their actions for a short period of time, even with non-survivable injuries. In a 1992 IWBA Journal paper, Dr. Ken Newgard wrote the following about how blood loss effects incapacitation:

    “A 70 kg male has a cardiac output of around 5.5 liters per minute. His blood volume is about 4200 cc. Assuming that his cardiac output can double under stress, his aortic blood flow can reach 11 Liters per minute. If this male had his thoracic aorta totally severed, it would take him 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his total blood volume. This is the minimum amount of time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. A marginally trained person can fire at a rate of two shots per second. In 4.6 seconds there could easily be 9 shots of return fire before the assailant’s activity is neutralized. Note this analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perusing the brain that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.”

    Military and LE (law enforcement) personnel are generally trained to shoot at the center of mass, usually the torso, of an aggressive opponent who must be stopped through the use of lethal force. Physiological incapacitation with wounds to the torso is usually the result of circulatory system collapse. More rapid incapacitation may occur with greater tissue disruption. Tissue is damaged through two wounding mechanisms: the tissue in the projectile’s path is permanently crushed and the tissue surrounding the projectile’s path is temporarily stretched. A penetrating projectile physically crushes and destroys tissue as it cuts its path through the body. The space occupied by this pulped and disintegrated tissue is referred to as the permanent cavity. The permanent cavity, or wound track, is quite simply the hole bored by the projectile's passage. Obviously, bullets of greater diameter crush more tissue, forming a larger permanent cavity. The formation of this permanent cavity is consistent and reliable.

    The tissue surrounding the permanent cavity is briefly pushed laterally aside as it is centrifugally driven radially outward by the projectile's passage. The empty space normally occupied by the momentarily displaced tissue surrounding the wound track, is called the temporary cavity. The temporary cavity quickly subsides as the elastic recoil of the stretched tissue returns it towards the wound track. The tissue that was stretched by the temporary cavity may be injured and is analogous to an area of blunt trauma surrounding the permanent crush cavity. The degree of injury produced by temporary cavitation is quite variable, erratic, and highly dependent on anatomic and physiologic considerations. Many flexible, elastic soft tissues such as muscle, bowel wall, skin, blood vessels, and empty hollow organs are good energy absorbers and are highly resistant to the blunt trauma and contusion caused by the stretch of temporary cavitation. Inelastic tissues such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder, are highly susceptible to severe permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture due to temporary cavitation insults. Projectiles are traveling at their maximum velocity when they initially strike and then slow as they travel through tissue. In spite of this, the maximum temporary cavity is not always found at the surface where the projectile is at its highest velocity, but often deeper in the tissue after it has slowed considerably. The maximum temporary cavitation is usually coincidental with that of maximum bullet yaw, deformation, or fragmentation, but not necessarily maximum projectile velocity.

    All projectiles that penetrate the body can only disrupt tissue by these two wounding mechanisms: the localized crushing of tissue in the bullet's path and the transient stretching of tissue adjacent to the wound track. Projectile wounds differ in the amount and location of crushed and stretched tissue. The relative contribution by each of these mechanisms to any wound depends on the physical characteristics of the projectile, its size, weight, shape, construction, and velocity, penetration depth and the type of tissue with which the projectile interacts. Unlike rifle bullets, handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG’s, generally only disrupt tissue by the crush mechanism. In addition, temporary cavitation from most handgun bullets does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding.

    Bullets that may be required to incapacitate aggressors must reliably penetrate a minimum of approximately 10 to 12 inches of tissue in order to ensure disruption of the major organs and blood vessels in the torso from any angle and through excessive adipose tissue, hypertrophied muscle, or intervening anatomic structures, such as a raised arm.

    Tissue is a denser medium than air; as the bullets strikes tissue, the increased drag on the projectile overcomes its rotational stabilization and the bullet can yaw. If the bullet yaws, more surface area is in contact with tissue, so it crushes more tissue, creating a larger permanent cavity. When a bullet yaws, it also displaces more of the surrounding tissue, increasing the temporary cavity size. Both the largest permanent and temporary cavities are produced when the bullet is traveling sideways at 90 degrees of yaw, allowing the maximum lateral cross sectional area of the bullet to strike tissue and displace the greatest amount of tissue. Longer and wider bullets have a greater lateral cross sectional area and thus create a larger permanent cavity when they yaw.

    Aerodynamic projectiles, such as bullets, cause minimal tissue disturbance when passing point forward through tissue. Deformation destroys the aerodynamic shape of the bullet, shortening its length and increasing its diameter by expanding and flattening the bullet tip in the classic "mushroom" pattern exhibited by deforming jacketed hollow point and jacketed soft point bullets. The larger frontal area of deformed bullets can crush more tissue to increase permanent cavity size and also displace more tissue to increase temporary cavity size. (Note: The Hague Declaration of 1899 prohibits the use of bullets that expand or flatten easily in the human body against combatants in international armed conflict; the Hague Declaration does not prohibit the military use of bullets that fragment or because of their design, yaw upon entry into tissue.)

    Projectile fragmentation in tissue can also greatly increase the permanent cavity size. When a rifle bullet fragments in tissue, each of the multiple fragments spreads out radially from the main wound track, cutting its own path through tissue. This fragmentation acts synergistically with the stretch of temporary cavitation. The multiply perforated tissue loses its elasticity and is unable to absorb stretching that would ordinarily be tolerated by intact tissue. The temporary cavitation displacement of tissue, which occurs following the passage of the projectile, stretches this weakened tissue and can grossly disrupt its integrity, tearing and detaching pieces of tissue. Note that handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG’s, do not generally exhibit the fragmentation effects produced by rifle bullets. If handgun bullets do fragment, the bullet fragments are usually found within 1 cm of the permanent cavity; wound severity is usually decreased by the fragmentation since the bullet mass is reduced, causing a smaller permanent crush cavity.</div></div>
     

    Rntobey

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    Good read TresMon. Finally I have found someone who truly understands my views on bullet performance.
     

    Sharpy

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    I'm glad I took the time to read that thanks Tresmon! I remember the first two deer I ever shot and it was with a 100 grainn soft point out of a .243 .They were shot at about 100 yards behind the shoulder and were drt.I remember being kinda disapointed with the round that it didn't pass through the other side and upon butchering the animal there was no perfect mushroomed bullet to be found only shards of copper and lead .Guess it did what it was supposed to do expand 100% of it's energy in the target.
     

    M700

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    Jan 8, 2003
    81
    2
    Washington State
    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

    Tres - out of curiosity - Have you done much hunting for deer and larger animals?

    Regards, Guy