I wonder how the Canadian Sniper team that made the 3540 meter shot would do in a match like this?
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Teams with more than 1 shooter and the same windcoach. Ie Team AB with four shooters shooting the same projectile at similar velocities, has an advantage over the single shooter and single wind coach teams. I was told by a friend who tried to register for the match, it was filled up 20 minutes after registration was announced on the website. With that popularity I think teams should be limited to one shooter If the day of the match there are openings then have a lottery to open it up to others on the same team. Max 1 shooter per wind coach. Yes the 2 mile gong was hit but the team had 4 chances to get there which in my perception casts a bit of a shadow over the accomplishment. I'm not saying it's easy, but if other teams and coaches had the same opportunity they would likely have progressed further.
Just commenting as a know nothing here, just came to some conclusions after the Canadian team feat.
Where was the luck in the events in Afghanistan and KO2M?
Was it in the trigger pull, was it in the particular bullet?
I think these guys are coming up with well thought out solutions to a problem and they are applying skill.
Luck plays its part after the trigger press.
Luck is when over a ten second flight none of the variables you have solved for, and over which you have no control, remain the same.
Where was the luck in the events in Afghanistan and KO2M?
Was it in the trigger pull, was it in the particular bullet?
I think these guys are coming up with well thought out solutions to a problem and they are applying skill.
Luck plays its part after the trigger press.
Luck is when over a ten second flight none of the variables you have solved for, and over which you have no control, remain the same.
Yes, the spotters excelled at KO2M, even more than the shooters themselves, according to some witnesses. Kudos to all them and proper credit! Your are right about WEZ and first-round-hits, I should have written better about my concerns in my post. That's how I personally define, where the technology is today. I mean, we've seen at 2500 and closer, high hit counts and a high decline afterwards. Anyway, you guys are pushing the envelope and I'm sure all the insight you are collecting by stretching out the limits will see its way soon in the form of a higher probability of hit at those extended ranges.
In my opinion, we're still lagging behind the current old technology in barrels, bullets and powders, because to hit farther, what we're doing is just bigger cartridges, with heavy, high BC bullets and very heavy rifles, which we can hardly call them man-portable.
Will you say that second hits are highly probable if the spotter does it well enough when wind calling? I think given your AAR this factor alone is responsible for putting out the first round. What was the experience regarding the solver? Thanks for you feedback, there is so much to learn from the actual shooters that I can keep asking for a whole day!
I have no qualms about luck at those ranges.
Yes luck was present.
The frequent comment I heard about the Canada shot was "They got lucky". Like they just picked up the gun and fired it in some direction and were shocked when the target slumped over.
But they entered the data into the machine and pressed the start button.
They were lucky that after the bullet was in flight the target didnt decide to get up and take a leak, It doesnt take me ten seconds to walk to the head. A butterfly in China didnt flap its wings and change the wind on their range. Nor did a bird fly into the path of the bullet ala Randy Johnson
https://youtu.be/qwpRHrAh3pk
The proof in their skill is the dead jihad.
The frequent comment I heard about the Canada shot was "They got lucky". Like they just picked up the gun and fired it in some direction and were shocked when the target slumped over.
But they entered the data into the machine and pressed the start button.
They were lucky that after the bullet was in flight the target didnt decide to get up and take a leak, It doesnt take me ten seconds to walk to the head. A butterfly in China didnt flap its wings and change the wind on their range. Nor did a bird fly into the path of the bullet ala Randy Johnson
https://youtu.be/qwpRHrAh3pk
The proof in their skill is the dead jihad.
public... sort of. very limited number of slots, and they were gone 20 minutes after registration opened.
Jeffvn
Jeffvn
You missed the point, I said the equipment is capable at these ranges. In good conditions, the shots get on the target. "That day when the wind was real calm" IS representative of what the equipment is capable of, which does matter and is repeatable. When the wind comes up and you start throwing shots just left and right of the target, that just shows that wind speed measurement technology and or skill needs to be advanced to increase our hit percentage.
If you want to advance things you can't just look at it as one big item, you have to look at each aspect of the system. So while our equipment is repeatable and one aspect we look closely at, our ability to judge the conditions with in the size of the target isn't according to your standard, and I would tend to agree.
It happened because people watched that page, especially those who attended last year and knew how competitive entry would be this year, and registered right when it was announced. Facebook can send you a notification as soon as a page posts something, so anyone that set up for the notifications knew as soon as registration opened. Same way you register for any match, and entry was very competitive.
This is already being looked at and being accounted for to a degree in matches like, the Tonopah 2 Mile. Limiting the wind coach to just the 3 man squad.
I don't think that is a valid argument since there were 4+ guys walking around in Lehigh/Manners Jerseys, 4+ guys wearing Cutting Edge jerseys, and around 4 or so guys wearing Barrett Jerseys there. How they chose to standardize their equipment and or read the conditions was up to them, and a Barrett team member took second. And where did it say that other guys couldn't form a team and work together?
I think many guys are finding it easy to forget that AB wasn't the only TEAM there... And that some how we had an unfair advantage because we may have had better methods of utilizing a team. Isn't that the whole point of competition?
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Some didn't have advance knowledge of when registration for the match was going to open?
I was under the impression that knowledge was "released" early to the chosen few. If so, this would seem to stifle true competition and is damaging to the credibility of the KO1.9M exhibition labeled as a competition/match.
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Mitch,
The Barrett team doesn't wear jerseys, they all wear polos with the Barrett logo. Haha
I didn't see the AB Team having any advantage over the other teams excluding they put the time and effort into preparing and training for the match. If training gives anyone an unfair advantage the i guess there would be trophies handed out from 1-49.
it was a difficult course of fire, mainly due to the wind conditions. A good spotter was the difference between 1st and last. I doubt anyone showed up with equipment they where not confident in. Second place was running a stock rifle so I believe that shows the equipment is capable.
The Barrett team doesn't wear jerseys, they all wear polos with the Barrett logo. Haha
I didn't see the AB Team having any advantage over the other teams excluding they put the time and effort into preparing and training for the match. If training gives anyone an unfair advantage the i guess there would be trophies handed out from 1-49.
it was a difficult course of fire, mainly due to the wind conditions. A good spotter was the difference between 1st and last. I doubt anyone showed up with equipment they where not confident in. Second place was running a stock rifle so I believe that shows the equipment is capable.
I guess it gets down to whether or not the rules allowed 4 shooters per wind coach. If it's allowed, then you can criticize it, but it's legal.
http://nebula.wsimg.com/ecc91f13cd9...CAEF1B178C700D78E&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
I see that rule #1 says:
"Shooting order will be by random number generator. However no gun will be permitted to be used more than once per day. The shooting order will be adjusted as necessary for shooters sharing rifles. If two shooters make it into the finals using the same gun, they will have to choose which of them shoots during the finals."
Comments on this thread suggest this rule was broken by AB, but I don't know if that claim is accurate:
The 10th rule states:
"Spotters/ wind coaches can double for various shooters if they are willing to."
I wonder if double = quadruple in this instance? Why not?
I had no idea the match filled up so quickly. Frank's "exhibition" comment makes sense.
I fully understood. No AB team members shared rifles, this is easily proven by camera footage and pictures from the event, which there are plenty of. And like i said, some matches are adjusting their rules to account for multiple shooters under one coach and are limiting it, and that is perfectly fine, I think that is a good change.
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There was nothing in the against having multiple shooters per wind coach this year, and if their had, we would have been confronted about it by Walt or Eduardo. Walt sticks to the rules regardless of who you are, which makes him perfect for helping run a match like this.
Each AB team members had their own rifle, none of us shared rifles and this is easily proven by all of the camera footage and pictures. None of our rifles look alike. Shared rifles had to be shot on different days of qualifying, and if both shooters ended up qualifying, only one would be allowed to compete in the finals. Personally, I'd like to see no sharing of rifles at all during the match.
I got a notification on my phone about a post on the KO2M page, I looked at it and saw that it was announcing the opening of registration, I let our team know, then submitted my entry just like anyone else could have and did.
And I'm not sure how quickly it filled up really has to do with anything, that's just how much demand there was to get in. Even if the AB team hadn't registered at all, do you think it would have filled up any slower? We're just 6 guys, take us out of the equation and instead of it taking 20 minutes (I'm not even sure where this number came from), it would have taken 25 minutes. Pretty much a moot point, anyone on FB had an equal chance of getting in. And if you are going to argue that limiting it to FB users was some how unfair, then I guess that's just the way it is, that's the medium Eduardo uses to facilitate and make announcements about the match, it has long been known that is the first place announcements are posted.
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Guys,
A lot of this is sour grapes, or at worst justification for an unexpectedly poor showing.
I was there, I have been accused of being Anti-AB on several occasions, and I have also become the defacto complaint department so I heard many of the complaints in real time. And frankly speaking did not see it the same way some of the other guys saw it.
Yes, you can argue renting out a portion of Whittington Center to train is a bad idea. I agree with that, it just "Looks" bad and requires a significant investment.
I agree that all shooters should be allowed to attempt the 2 (1.9) Mile shot... it's expensive to show up and not getting to shoot everything. It's a bad practice.
Registration seemed normal to me, they had a website and they used Facebook. I believe they also had an email list you could have joined as I received emails with PDFs to register? Matches with less than 100 shooters filling up in 20 Minutes - welcome to the club. That is why the PRS started. Sniper's Hide and Rifles Only used to fill matches in 1 minute of registration opening. The PRS wanted an early entry exception for this very reason. Shit happens...
There was a discussion at SHOT which we spoke about on here, and sponsors are stepping up, etc. get in with a sponsor.
I did not see Team AB do anything other than work better the other guys. I was there front and center with my camera I have it all on film. Walt was also on top of everything. I watched him stop/announce / etc when a team attempted to shoot 1` round extra. They were keeping track. Eduardo was not really interacting with the shooters in a way that can be claimed favoritism
I saw nothing that appeared unfair beyond the slow nature of the shooting. The winds after 10 AM were tough so anyone forced to shoot after was at a bit of disadvantage. A few more shooting stations would have fixed that. More teams shooting at the same time.
If it was skewed towards letting Team AB win, why did Bryan not qualify for the finals?
The bitching is really a result of today's competition circuit, (See my PRS Hate Posts) it honestly has very little merit the only negative stuff was more procedural vs favoriting a specific team.
A lot of this is sour grapes, or at worst justification for an unexpectedly poor showing.
I was there, I have been accused of being Anti-AB on several occasions, and I have also become the defacto complaint department so I heard many of the complaints in real time. And frankly speaking did not see it the same way some of the other guys saw it.
Yes, you can argue renting out a portion of Whittington Center to train is a bad idea. I agree with that, it just "Looks" bad and requires a significant investment.
I agree that all shooters should be allowed to attempt the 2 (1.9) Mile shot... it's expensive to show up and not getting to shoot everything. It's a bad practice.
Registration seemed normal to me, they had a website and they used Facebook. I believe they also had an email list you could have joined as I received emails with PDFs to register? Matches with less than 100 shooters filling up in 20 Minutes - welcome to the club. That is why the PRS started. Sniper's Hide and Rifles Only used to fill matches in 1 minute of registration opening. The PRS wanted an early entry exception for this very reason. Shit happens...
There was a discussion at SHOT which we spoke about on here, and sponsors are stepping up, etc. get in with a sponsor.
I did not see Team AB do anything other than work better the other guys. I was there front and center with my camera I have it all on film. Walt was also on top of everything. I watched him stop/announce / etc when a team attempted to shoot 1` round extra. They were keeping track. Eduardo was not really interacting with the shooters in a way that can be claimed favoritism
I saw nothing that appeared unfair beyond the slow nature of the shooting. The winds after 10 AM were tough so anyone forced to shoot after was at a bit of disadvantage. A few more shooting stations would have fixed that. More teams shooting at the same time.
If it was skewed towards letting Team AB win, why did Bryan not qualify for the finals?
The bitching is really a result of today's competition circuit, (See my PRS Hate Posts) it honestly has very little merit the only negative stuff was more procedural vs favoriting a specific team.
I was not there, only wished that I was, but the complainers in this thread largely do sound like they have sour grapes as an appetizer. While it would be great to just pack up my relatively stock .338 LM and head out to one of these comps, I am very aware that I will not have a spotter that has the experience with winds and terrain out west and neither do I have that experience. With the format of this match, had I entered, I would likely have been disappointed early on, not having a chance to even engage targets out to additional distances. I suspect that that may be one issue driving the few that are complaining.
It certainly seems to me that neither Mitch, nor anyone else should have to feel they have to defend themselves for performing well in a match on a given day. If they performed within the rules given, then it seems pretty cut and dried.
One thing that I do see coming out of these early matches are plenty of new technologies and methods for accomplishment. It is a good way to shake out what someone called inconsistencies in the ability to consistently impact targets at these extreme distances. I think that it's a great time to be a long range, extra long range or extreme long range shooter.
It certainly seems to me that neither Mitch, nor anyone else should have to feel they have to defend themselves for performing well in a match on a given day. If they performed within the rules given, then it seems pretty cut and dried.
One thing that I do see coming out of these early matches are plenty of new technologies and methods for accomplishment. It is a good way to shake out what someone called inconsistencies in the ability to consistently impact targets at these extreme distances. I think that it's a great time to be a long range, extra long range or extreme long range shooter.
Well said Frank. I honestly haven't worried about most of what was claimed since it is literally all on camera, and over all I don't think we did super great, we learned a lot and there is a lot of room for improvement.
I agree practicing there may "look bad", but when considering going to the WC to practice or not, it is pretty crazy to think its unfair in my opinion. Of course it gives us an advantage, why else would you practice shooting if not to get better and gain an advantage. We shot on a completely different range, 1000 ft higher in altitude, and it was a whole month before the match. I'd bet guys also shoot PRS matches at the same facilities they practice at multiple times a year, especially if it is your local range, but just not on the the actual course of fire. Also, we live in Michigan, where ELR locations are few and far between, so if we have to travel to practice, it may as well be in the same general climate. If it was unfair for us to practice in the back country, it should be unfair for anyone in that part of the country to compete there since they can practice in those conditions all season. And its really not that expensive if you get a group of guys together.
I agree that the elimination factor of the match is not necessary, although it would slow down the pace of the match even more with out it.
What some view is "Anti-AB", I view as someone being critical of what we do, but not necessarily in a bad way. There are always ways to improve things, and there can be a lot to learn from someone pointing out possible flaws. Not everyone is going to agree all the time.
I would be perfectly happy if they did away with the prize table, I appreciate the sponsors stepping up and supporting the event, but I could do with out the drama that I think accompanies the large prize values. I don't go to these matches to win stuff off the prize table.
I was there. AB had no advantage other than they are very prepared and work well as a team. As for renting the back country, I think (the team I shot for) thought it was extremely smart. Yes, we will rent the back country next year. Already have the info needed to do so.
Our opinion is to compete with AB, and the only way to do that is by reaching down and grabbing a pair instead of bitching and griping on a forum. I wore a polo shirt. Chris
Our opinion is to compete with AB, and the only way to do that is by reaching down and grabbing a pair instead of bitching and griping on a forum. I wore a polo shirt. Chris
Thank you for clarifying. I was just quoting a post on this thread, not judging. Actually, I was hoping an AB shooter would respond so that point would be perfectly clear.
And congrats to the AB team. Great work.
I Agree with Chris completely. I feel no team has a distinct advantage over a single shooter,the winds are changing every second in directions and speeds and I guarantee you that any shooter that wants to win will watch and study the other shooters shots way before he gets to the line to shoot. Every shooter and spotter should know what is happening with the wind regardless if their spotter just got through spotting for someone else.If the shooter does not watch and study but instead walks around and goofs off until he shoots then it is on him and no one else.I was on team Cutting Edge and I know the Barrett guys worked hard to get it right as did AB team,Cutting Edge and Team Manners , The wind is the great equalizer,always has been and always will be. We all studied the shots and stayed on the atmospheric numbers and being a single non team shooter in the first KO2m match I did the same thing by watching and staying on the numbers but yet had no team,How can that be? We as shooters should be emulating teams not accusing them of cheating,I am a better shooter because of teams and all who emulate will be too. The ones that do not are doomed to excuses and whining forever.
Congrats to all who got to participate, winners and all, breaking ground for things to come is always good. Quick rant, why the incessant whining about small shit? You want to play this game, be ready.
D
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Competitive shooters should be forced to watch every episode of The Golden Girls. [h=1][/h]
Not usually a participant in forums anymore but I thought I'd pop in and address a few things that people have commented on. First, the comments about cheating and favoritism. The complaints about AB having the ranges the day before crack me up because I posted a picture on the board at the eagles nest showing the target locations and their ranges the day before competition started. So sure, they had the ranges. Just like everyone else.
The complaints about Paul spotting with his rifle scope crack me up for two reasons. First is that for "Sniper's Hide" members to poorly regard spotting for a shooter using your gun's optics says an awful lot about some of the real world experience here. Next is because the rules are crystal clear about what you can use to spot with; it is right there in the section that says you can use anything. If I was disappointed in anything it was that nobody used a drone to spot downrange impacts. I was really hoping that someone would try (even if in all likelihood it would be a complete failure) it would at least get the ball rolling on figuring out how to do it in a practical and reliable way.
There were some remarks on Walt having an unfair advantage since he designed the course of fire and the implication that he was able to practice when nobody else could. I can't think of a less likely guy to ever cheat in competition but more than that, the targets weren't even hung until the day before the competition and I can promise you guys it was all virgin steel when competition started. Feel free to look at the video if you don't want to take my word for it. Walt and Tessa did well because they shoot together frequently and can actually work as a team.
The team thing is something we have tried to stress from the beginning because we know that it is crucial to this kind of shooting. I couldn't believe how many people got up to the line with a spotter they had clearly never shot with before. Walt and I were close enough to the firing line to overhear all the communication and we had a hilarious number of number of WTF looks we exchanged after hearing some of it. More than one team had a shooter with a MOA reticle and a spotter calling in mils. There were spotters that called all of their correction not from the previous impact but in relation to the zero range. There were plenty of teams that took minutes to reposition from one target to the next. Look at the people that did well on the other hand. The AB Teams, Barrett, Walt and Garret all worked well with their spotters. They transitioned and shot quickly and they communicated clearly with each other. There is a reason we have trophies for the spotters too.
I can't promise that I will keep checking in on this forum for very long but I'll try to answer any questions or concerns you guys may have in the near future. For those that actually competed, we are always happy to have feedback and I'd encourage you to email Walt, Eddie or I with any suggestions or criticisms.
Cheers,
-Alex
Ko2M Technical Director
FCSA Board of Directors
The complaints about Paul spotting with his rifle scope crack me up for two reasons. First is that for "Sniper's Hide" members to poorly regard spotting for a shooter using your gun's optics says an awful lot about some of the real world experience here. Next is because the rules are crystal clear about what you can use to spot with; it is right there in the section that says you can use anything. If I was disappointed in anything it was that nobody used a drone to spot downrange impacts. I was really hoping that someone would try (even if in all likelihood it would be a complete failure) it would at least get the ball rolling on figuring out how to do it in a practical and reliable way.
There were some remarks on Walt having an unfair advantage since he designed the course of fire and the implication that he was able to practice when nobody else could. I can't think of a less likely guy to ever cheat in competition but more than that, the targets weren't even hung until the day before the competition and I can promise you guys it was all virgin steel when competition started. Feel free to look at the video if you don't want to take my word for it. Walt and Tessa did well because they shoot together frequently and can actually work as a team.
The team thing is something we have tried to stress from the beginning because we know that it is crucial to this kind of shooting. I couldn't believe how many people got up to the line with a spotter they had clearly never shot with before. Walt and I were close enough to the firing line to overhear all the communication and we had a hilarious number of number of WTF looks we exchanged after hearing some of it. More than one team had a shooter with a MOA reticle and a spotter calling in mils. There were spotters that called all of their correction not from the previous impact but in relation to the zero range. There were plenty of teams that took minutes to reposition from one target to the next. Look at the people that did well on the other hand. The AB Teams, Barrett, Walt and Garret all worked well with their spotters. They transitioned and shot quickly and they communicated clearly with each other. There is a reason we have trophies for the spotters too.
I can't promise that I will keep checking in on this forum for very long but I'll try to answer any questions or concerns you guys may have in the near future. For those that actually competed, we are always happy to have feedback and I'd encourage you to email Walt, Eddie or I with any suggestions or criticisms.
Cheers,
-Alex
Ko2M Technical Director
FCSA Board of Directors
I wasn't there, nor will I ever likely be there. Resources, excuses, label it however. I have been looking forward to hearing about Ko2M for a few months, and was excited to see what develops from it. To me, this is the arena where things are pushed, and sometimes fail. Sure, the first round hit rates are not spectacular, but the point of the competition is to see who is better, or learning more. If AB was such a cheater, why didn't they sweep the podium? Why did they have folks not even qualify for the final 10? Yes, AB is heavily involved, and for that I am thankful. Because of their investment into the sport, I have been able to download a quality ballistic solver to my phone for a few bucks. For someone who doesn't have the custom rifle, super optics, and a Terrapin, along with friends with equal equipment, spotters, and amazing range facilities, the trickle down effects is what I appreciate.
Teams will beat individuals. Teams that rehearse, practice, and innovate, tend to do better. Does this suck to lose to as a normal person? Sure, but the more incentive to win, the harder you have to work for it, network with like minded people.
I often wonder how many folks that are the squeakiest wheel, how many events do the volunteer for, or even better, run complete events? I have helped run USPSA, IDPA, and bike races. Every single one, feels like a million little things are going wrong, and trying to make sure the competitor enjoys the event. It is tough, and stressful. No event is every perfect, but the pursuit of making it better, and actually making the changes show a quality event staff.
Thanks once again to the Staff of Ko2m, events will always have their hiccups, but I am encouraged that you are responding, and trying to make things better. Team AB, and all the others, thank you for your participation, and being invested into something we are enjoying and learning from.
Teams will beat individuals. Teams that rehearse, practice, and innovate, tend to do better. Does this suck to lose to as a normal person? Sure, but the more incentive to win, the harder you have to work for it, network with like minded people.
I often wonder how many folks that are the squeakiest wheel, how many events do the volunteer for, or even better, run complete events? I have helped run USPSA, IDPA, and bike races. Every single one, feels like a million little things are going wrong, and trying to make sure the competitor enjoys the event. It is tough, and stressful. No event is every perfect, but the pursuit of making it better, and actually making the changes show a quality event staff.
Thanks once again to the Staff of Ko2m, events will always have their hiccups, but I am encouraged that you are responding, and trying to make things better. Team AB, and all the others, thank you for your participation, and being invested into something we are enjoying and learning from.
Well thanks for clearing that up. From what I heard from the AB people it was an actual competition won by the AB team.
English is my 2nd language so I must have misunderstood, here I thought that they said that they won a extreme long range shooting match using their whizbang gear. Turns out it was just an exhibition shoot.
