Rifle Scopes LE Optics??

[kennyfisher4413]

I have currently been tasked with revamping our departments precision rifle. It is an older .308 Rem700. The optic on it is an older Leupold and needs to be up graded. I would like to stay in the Leupold line. I have been looking at the Mark 4 line recently. With a budget of under 2k retail what are some good options would you guys recommend? The rifle is for our SWAT team for use in urban operations. I dont want to end up putting too much optic on it for its intended use. Thanks

 

[pineoak]

NF ATACR, Vortex Razor Gen 2, Schmidt & Bender... Leupold isn't bad, but you're not getting much quality for the price.

With 3x, 4x, 5x on the low end, you're covered for whatever you need it for. Make sure it tracks after you get it.

If only authorized to take shots inside of 200 yards, consider SFP as well.

Maybe you might spend more than $2k, but given what it will likely be used for, it might be worth it. (budget limits suck)

If you spend on a good optic, if you decide to upgrade the rifle later, you won't be buying twice, though R700s rarely get shot enough to actually wear out (barrels excluded)

 

[kennyfisher4413]

NF ATACR, Vortex Razor Gen 2, Schmidt & Bender... Leupold isn't bad, but you're not getting much quality for the price.

With 3x, 4x, 5x on the low end, you're covered for whatever you need it for. Make sure it tracks after you get it.

If only authorized to take shots inside of 200 yards, consider SFP as well.

Maybe you might spend more than $2k, but given what it will likely be used for, it might be worth it. (budget limits suck)

If you spend on a good optic, if you decide to upgrade the rifle later, you won't be buying twice, though R700s rarely get shot enough to actually wear out (barrels excluded)

Thanks for the information. One reason why I was looking to stick with Leupold is that their pricing to agencies is probably the best I've seen compared to other manufactures which would allow us to get more for our money and stay within budget. Our precision rifle course only goes out to 300 yds which is what our authorized limit is when taking shots.

 

[PBWalsh]

Understandable, but many manufacturers such as Vortex has good LE pricing from what I've heard, and a Gen 1 Razor or Gen 2 PST will beat the pants off a Mark 4. You can get a lot for your money under 2k looking at Vortex, Burris, Bushnell, or even a Nightforce SHV.

 

[IOWASHOOTER]

After going through this a while back, I would highly recommend looking into someone besides Leupold. They have just fallen too far behind in recent years. Email Nightforce and ask for their LE pricing. This will bring the ATACR 4-16 and the NXS 2.5-10 into your price range which would be the two I would recommend. You'll want to use that bottom end of the mag range for the close up work and the wide field of view.

 

[txfireguy2003]

I love my BurrisXTR 2, it's WELL INSIDE your price limits, and with LE pricing, should come in under 1k. 4-20 or 5-25 should be fine. I opt for the most magnification I can get without sacrificing optical quality or the low end. Think about it, LE snipers are predominantly observers weigh the option to send a round on the rare chance it's actually needed. That 20 or 25 power sure makes it easier to identify weapons, suspects etc at range.

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[Poorboyr]

You can't go wrong with Leopold products. The Mark 6 might be the way to go. I prefer the c2 turrets. I'm not sure why Leopold gets such a bad name on this site. I have used them for years with no failures or issues. The glass seems on par with all the other top tier scopes.

 

[_Windrider_]

PM me, ill get you the info for the contact at Bushnell. I also have their price list. You may also consider posting this in the LE only area. lots of guys in there who have done this multiple times and have a lot of valuable feedback to offer.

a Bushnell ERS 3.5-21 with an H59 could probably be had for well under 2k. No illumination however so you need to decide if that is a requirement. But the scopes offer good value. Excellent tracking, a zero stop and large enough turrets to easily use with gloves.

 

[fdkay]

There is nothing wrong with a MK 4 3.5-10 in mil/mil or moa/moa. You don't need a bunch of whiz-bang shit on your scope, but decent glass and excellent tracking. Illumination is a nice feature, but not absolutely required on a good SFP scope, it is mandatory on a FFP scope though.
First off, if there anything wrong with the older optic?
It can be sent back to the factory for a cleaning and once over, you can also change the reticle etc... at minimal cost.

There are other companies that offer excellent agency pricing.
Sightron, Burris, Bushnell and Vortex ALL offer excellent LE prices.

This would be an excellent option and the agency price is fantastic:
https://sightronusa.com/index.php/product/siiiss3510x44lrirmoa/
Sightron has rather fine reticles, so illumination is a must.

I ran a 2.5-17 STAC for a while on my personal duty rifle (capped turrets are recommended here) and I really liked it.

The reason I don't recommend the mk 4 4.5-14 is you really need to get as close to 2.5 or 3 power as you can for field of view on close shots.
Also, keep in mind minimum focus distance, many scopes have a min distance of 50 yards, sightron offers 10 yards, which is excellent, Vortex offers 20 yards on the PST 2, which is very good.
You could easily get into a Vortex razor Gen 2 for less than 2000 and you would be hard pressed to beat it, however, I have talked to numerous LE snipers and most of them didn't know much about optics and really weren't that interested.
Apply the KISS principle here. More magnification is nice, but not necessary for LE work. a top end of 9 or 10 is perfectly suitable, but I personally prefer 14-15.

 

[im1livewire]

I am in the same situation as you: founding a new Program, using an older Remy 700 Police in .308, etc. We are T&E'ng the Sig Sauer 3-18x44 Mil/Mil Tango 6. I can work with you on the vendor who would facilitate your T&E with Sig, should you like. I've been happy with the features and accuracy of this system. The locking turrets, electronic scope level indicators (keeps you from having to reference an external bubble level while keeping on target), and fiber optic reticle enhancement are nice touches.

The other LEOs/professionals in this thread are solid, btw. I really appreciate reading their input, just in case my bosses balk at the Sig's price (around $1300 on the invoice). Agreed on magnification, btw. 14 is my norm, too.

 

[remington patriot]

We were in the same boat as you years ago. We had the Leupold scopes but I switched us to the Nightforce scopes and am VERY glad we did. For LE use the NXS line of scopes is fine. I think the NF ATACR 4-16X50 SFP scope is a great choice too. SFP is just fine for LE work. NF offers a very good agency price and they can specially build something if you are in need. I have used NF on the job for years now and it has not missed a beat. From SWAT call outs to international competitions the NF has been excellent.

 

[pineoak]

be picky about the reticle you choose. over time, if the scopes track correctly, that'll be all that you really notice

 

[GUNNER10]

leupold and vortex are going to be the best LE programs
stiener and bushnell have good programs
NF is about 100 bucks off MSRP

I really like the Mk6 3-18, phenomenal scope for the LE price, the Mk4 ER/T M5A2 that's on our 2010's are awesome as well, both would leave plenty of money for a quality mount. its a little over your budget but the non illuminated mk8 is also very appealing.

the gen 2 razor/AMG, S&B, or a NF beast/F1 ATACR are all awesome scopes, their clicks may be touch more tactile, or their optics might be a hair better, but none of them are a thousand dollars better than the Mk6.

 

[CSTactical]

We were in the same boat as you years ago. We had the Leupold scopes but I switched us to the Nightforce scopes and am VERY glad we did. For LE use the NXS line of scopes is fine. I think the NF ATACR 4-16X50 SFP scope is a great choice too. SFP is just fine for LE work. NF offers a very good agency price and they can specially build something if you are in need. I have used NF on the job for years now and it has not missed a beat. From SWAT call outs to international competitions the NF has been excellent.

We would be able to provide LE pricing on many scopes including the NF ATACR 4-16X50 SFP which would be a great option, call us at 916.670.1103 for more details

 

[Sniperstud]

I've been a LE sniper for over sixteen years. We started out with Leupold, and still use them to good effect. I use my personal rifle, and have moved on from Leupold to Nightforce, and most recently to Schmidt & Bender. I upgraded because I use this rifle outside the confines of LE training. If I were exclusively using a scope for duty use, inside 300 yards, I would prefer my SFP Nightforce NXS 3.5-15. Its got good FOV on the low end, and enough magnification on the top end for target ID, and effective use at extended ranges. I've been to several LE sniper schools that included shooting out to 1000 yards. This is within the capability of 10x, but 15x makes it a little nicer.

 

[Polizei45]

Nightforce pricing is more then $100 off MSRP. They do take care of LE.

 

[kennyfisher4413]

Well after talking with my Deputy Chief and discussing how our current rifle set up is close to 20 years old. He is considering trading the old setup in and getting a new rifle. While it is always nice to get new toys this will cut in to the optic budget and probably force me to look at optics under $1500 and probably closer to the $1000 mark. Since I've been on the department most of our tactical operations have been done in the middle of the night or in early morning low light illumination is somewhat important to me in this choice.

Here are a few of the ones I have been considering;

Sig Tango 6- 2-12x40
Sig Tango 6- 3-18x44
Vortex Viper PST Gen2- 3-15x44 (No Illum)
Vortex Razor HD Gen1- 5-20x50
Bushnell Elite Tactical LRTSi 3-12x44
Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44mm (34mm) M5C2 Matte Front Focal TMR (No Illum, Top of budget)
Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm (30mm) M1 Matte Illum. TMR
Leupold Mark 4 ER/T 4.5-14x50mm (30mm) M5 Matte Front Focal TMR

 

[fdkay]

What is wrong with the old rifle?
For 600-650 dollars you can have a quality barrel installed on it: https://www.rwsgunsmithing.com/gunsmithing-services/
If you are looking at a FFP scope, you really need illumination.
The Burris XTR II and PST 2 are excellent candidates for the budget mined and the agency prices are well under your price range.
The Bushnell agency price is also well under your price range, allowing you to purchase excellent mounting options.

 

[LawnMM]

I'm not an LE sniper, but do work in LE, so I'm peripherally familiar with purchasing programs and the hassles therein. I do shoot a lot and compete as often as I can make it fit my schedule. So I'll give you some thoughts. I'd absolutely not do SFP. I'm sure most shots will be 100yds or less, but you never know. My best example of this would be a Beslan type scenario here in the US. What if you're stuck on a building across a football field or large parking lot? 100yds might not be feasible. You may be dealing with multiple ranges, moving targets, etc. With the skill degradation that comes from stress I'd keep it simple as possible and do FFP. Which ones?

You won't go wrong with NF, I don't know if I'd recommend Vortex. Great scopes but I've had their style zero stop bone me a couple times and you have to consider the guys on your team may not be super savvy and on top of little things like set screws. I've got some buddies who were on our Dept team for years and I've heard the stories. For the money I don't see how you can beat Bushnell. Get the DMR2 that's illuminated. They're like $1600 retail and you've got good reticle options to choose from. I'm sure if you talk to Mile High, CS Tactical, etc. they can try and help you out with better pricing for a bulk agency order. Do it right the first time and you'll be thanking yourself for years to come. Cheaper isn't always better and I'm sure the Admin will be looking at which offer the best prices.

So when you do decide to go with Brand A for your team, get quotes from brands B, C, and D that will be higher. Then when they go with the cheapest option it's what you wanted anyway. Good luck.

**Edited to add I just got an email from Mile High as I was writing this about a sale/special pricing on NF scopes, they're pro LE folks and salt of the earth people, give em a ring**

 

[kennyfisher4413]

What is wrong with the old rifle?
For 600-650 dollars you can have a quality barrel installed on it: https://www.rwsgunsmithing.com/gunsmithing-services/
If you are looking at a FFP scope, you really need illumination.
The Burris XTR II and PST 2 are excellent candidates for the budget mined and the agency prices are well under your price range.
The Bushnell agency price is also well under your price range, allowing you to purchase excellent mounting options.

Honestly, I just think some updates is all it needs. Prior to him mentioning that he would like to get a new rifle my intentions were to just freshen up this one with a new optic,optic mount, tactical bolt knob, and a new stock. I would like to upgrade to a box mag set up. The last guy that took it to the precision rifle course said it shot fine aside from the scope giving him issues which is what brought me to this conversation we are having now.

 

[fdkay]

It's all good if they are willing to spring for new kit, but if the rifle is shooting good, I'd rather spend the extra coin on the scope and the dbm.

 

[Sniperstud]

If your rifle is still acceptably accurate, and the round count is within reason, I would insist on spending the money on the best optic you can afford. If the stock is not giving you problems, there is no immediate need to replace it. The DBM and new bolt knob would be nice to have, but a top quality optic will have a much more profound effect on your job performance. The other items can be addressed in a later budget.

When you're operating on a limited budget:

1. Prioritize your needs, and wants.
2. Buy the very best you can afford, otherwise, you'll have regrets and end up either having to live with a bad choice, or replacing the item with what you should have bought the first time. "Buy once, cry once," is an overused axiom, but its generally true.
3. Make improvements incrementally. Trying to do it all at once, on a limited budget will force you to compromise.

This rifle is not a toy. It is a professional tool that you will use to protect and possibly save lives. You owe it to your team, and to the public you serve to make sure that you and your rifle are the most effective weapon system possible. This will probably mean having to convince your administration of your needs and why they're important. They're probably not snipers, so they don't have a clue. Good luck.

 

[remington patriot]

A couple more things to consider and why I prefer NF are the following: Illuminated reticle. Almost all models of NF come with an illuminated reticle and this IS a factor for low light shooting and shooting with or without night vision. The contrast between targets is an advantage. Going with a scope with at least 15X-20X will offer you some added magnification for long distance observation or identification. 10X is nice but I've been to competitions with an older 10X scope and I WISHED I had a little more power to identify a small target. Be mindful of scopes with illuminated reticles where the controls are somewhere other than built into the parallax adjustment due to it potentially being in the way for left handed shooters. For reference, we use the NF NXS 5.5-22X50. I typically keep it in the 11-16 power range but it is nice to know I have the added magnification should I need it.

 

[pineoak]

Again, for inside of 300 yards, SFP

 

[GPDCop709]

I've been a LE sniper for over sixteen years. We started out with Leupold, and still use them to good effect. I use my personal rifle, and have moved on from Leupold to Nightforce, and most recently to Schmidt & Bender. I upgraded because I use this rifle outside the confines of LE training. If I were exclusively using a scope for duty use, inside 300 yards, I would prefer my SFP Nightforce NXS 3.5-15. Its got good FOV on the low end, and enough magnification on the top end for target ID, and effective use at extended ranges. I've been to several LE sniper schools that included shooting out to 1000 yards. This is within the capability of 10x, but 15x makes it a little nicer.

I also vote Nightforce NXS 3.5-15 SFP. 12 year LEO sniper here also. At my decision, we went away from our old Mark 4 Leupold's and purchased the Nightforce's. In my opinion, there is no need in domestic law enforcement use for a FFP scope. Wind isn't typically going to effect our shots and in the history of the American Sniper Association's surveys, no LEO sniper has ever Mil'ed a target prior to taking a shot. Also, as you already said, it's all about the low end magnification. Its nice having a bomb 5.5-25 scope, but it does you nothing when you can only see an eyeball at the lowest magnification (I've had to argue that a few times). Nightforce had some very good pricing available for LEO also.

 

[kennyfisher4413]

If your rifle is still acceptably accurate, and the round count is within reason, I would insist on spending the money on the best optic you can afford. If the stock is not giving you problems, there is no immediate need to replace it. The DBM and new bolt knob would be nice to have, but a top quality optic will have a much more profound effect on your job performance. The other items can be addressed in a later budget.

When you're operating on a limited budget:

1. Prioritize your needs, and wants.
2. Buy the very best you can afford, otherwise, you'll have regrets and end up either having to live with a bad choice, or replacing the item with what you should have bought the first time. "Buy once, cry once," is an overused axiom, but its generally true.
3. Make improvements incrementally. Trying to do it all at once, on a limited budget will force you to compromise.

This rifle is not a toy. It is a professional tool that you will use to protect and possibly save lives. You owe it to your team, and to the public you serve to make sure that you and your rifle are the most effective weapon system possible. This will probably mean having to convince your administration of your needs and why they're important. They're probably not snipers, so they don't have a clue. Good luck.

Our last guy to shoot it for his precision rifle operators course said it shot good, However we have no documentation of how many rounds the gun actually has down the tube due to bad documentation over the past 20 years of the rifles existence at our department. I think only 1 or 2 of the officers that had been assigned the rifle over the years kept any kind of log books on the rifle.

 

[Sniperstud]

Our last guy to shoot it for his precision rifle operators course said it shot good, However we have no documentation of how many rounds the gun actually has down the tube due to bad documentation over the past 20 years of the rifles existence at our department. I think only 1 or 2 of the officers that had been assigned the rifle over the years kept any kind of log books on the rifle.

In that case, I would want to shoot it myself to verify that the accuracy is acceptable. If it is, I would push for spending the money on the optic. If the accuracy is not up to par, try cleaning the rifle. If that doesn't help, I would request to have the rifle's barrel replaced by a competent shop. The best scope on the planet won't make your rifle a shooter, if the barrel is burned out. Chances are, your chief is talking about buying another Remington 700. Explain to him that there is no expiration date on that receiver. In fact, it may be superior to a current production receiver. If you purchased a new rifle, you would be stuck with whatever accuracy the factory rifle produces. For roughly the same money, you can have your receiver trued, and a match barrel installed. You will have a superior rifle with an accuracy guarantee.

At at this point, if you have explained the virtues and importance of excellent optics, and the logic of modifying the rifle, if necessary, your chief may surprise you and agree to a higher budget. After all, these are not recurring expenses. These purchases should not have to be made again for a very long time. If he doesn't, you'll have to compromise on the optic, and buy the best optic you can with the money you have left. The other option, if the rifle is shot out, and he won't increase your rifle budget, is to buy the scope yourself. I have gotten some great deals on top end optics by shopping used. Then you can use the rest of the money for a new rifle, or barrel, along with a new bolt knob, and DBM. Then you can negotiate the purchase of a proper optic in a later budget, and move yours to a personal rifle. You might even be able to have your old department scope repaired for little or no cost, and sell it or trade it to help fund your purchases.

Whatever you do, you have to show them that its not about buying new toys, its about decreasing the department's liability, and reducing future expenses, while still procuring the best weapon system your department can afford. This is the language they speak. And for heaven's sake, keep up to date records from now on. Good luck.

 

[MidTNShooter]

I would look at the Nightforce NXS 3.5-15 in SFP. For most LE needs a SFP is probably a better option but that may be another discussion. NF has a discount for LE and have been extremely easy to work with. I think the Mark 4's work well and Leupold has had decent service for LE over the years, I just feel that NF is a better optic and their service is equal if not better. With respect to the rifles it's all in the budget as others have mentioned. I'd give them a few options to rebarrel, replacement that will work and also a replacement on the high end so he can see the range of options and like most departments they may pick the least expensive one so make sure that one works for your needs but there is always the chance that you will be suprised.

 

[kennyfisher4413]

I will be calling Mile High and CSTactical next week once I get some time to talk optics with them and see what they can offer me price wise. I do like the NF and if I can get them to be on board it is a definite option. They were actually looking at the Ruger Precision rifle as a replacement if it went that route. I agree on maintaining proper records on the rifle. We shouldn't have an issue for a while since I'm the next one to take over the rifle due to the current guy leaving the department.

Anyone got any LE friendly shops in mind that specialize in tactical rifles? We Short Action Customs here in Ohio. But I would like a few options to compare pricing.

 

[pineoak]

See if SAC does LE discounts/specials, they are definitely quality.

 

[kennyfisher4413]

See if SAC does LE discounts/specials, they are definitely quality.

I emailed Mark, I know they are big in the Precision Tactical competition scene....which shouldn't be any different from an LE precision rifle being that they both need great accuracy.

 

[smacha538]

SAC does do LE pricing. Honestly when buying glass, I would go through Vortex direct and not think twice. Great discount and customer service. I've bought two razors through their LE program.


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[Steel+Killer]

If you do go the new rifle route may I suggest a 20" Tikka CTR best out of the box accuracy I have ever seen. Seems like the shorter 20" barrel would be great for police work comes with a 10rd double stack mag, pictatinny rail already installed, threaded barrel, tactical bolt (oversized bolt) all for less than $950.

 

[CSTactical]

I will be calling Mile High and CSTactical next week once I get some time to talk optics with them and see what they can offer me price wise. I do like the NF and if I can get them to be on board it is a definite option. They were actually looking at the Ruger Precision rifle as a replacement if it went that route. I agree on maintaining proper records on the rifle. We shouldn't have an issue for a while since I'm the next one to take over the rifle due to the current guy leaving the department.

Anyone got any LE friendly shops in mind that specialize in tactical rifles? We Short Action Customs here in Ohio. But I would like a few options to compare pricing.

Give us a call when you're available at 916.670.1103 and we'll be happy to do LE pricing on many optics.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

We have a mix of FFP and SFP. I find the SFP more useful. I don't know where anyone else works, but most of our armed/barricades are in city limits. Even in our rural areas, if you can't get within 300 yards, something it wrong. There are cedar trees everywhere. I can go outside my house right now, point in any direction, and chances are you can't see 100 yards. FFP has not won us over (we have a Steiner and a Vortex Razor G2).

FOV at low magnification is more important than anything at higher magnification in my experience. So is a big, honkin' easy-to-see reticle at low power. Illumination is a must, IMO.

About the best of all the worlds that WE have at my PD is the NF NXS 2.5-10x42 compact. Yeah, we can't see flea nuts at 500 yards for the mythical long range stuff that everyone spends all their time training for that doesn't ever happen (they end up across the street). Look at the reality of LE sniping. Not sniper competitions. Yes, it could happen, but I've hit a lot of targets at 800 yards and further with 10x scopes. It's not ideal, but 10-60 yards is where real LE sniping happens, and most people are not at all set up for that.

 

[ldunnmobile]

The NF NXS 2.5-10x42 really is a jack of all trades scope. Underrated IMO by flashier optics. It's ideal on my hunting rifle.