Night Vision Looking to purchase first thermal clip on

[TheVolunteers]

I'm looking into purchasing my first thermal clip on, and have been trying to read up on my options. My use case is a 16" AR with 1-10x March shorty scope, and American made is a must (I refuse to pay for optics made by our Chinese comrades). I'm trying to stay in the $3-4k budget, which I know tends to limit my options (I may up the limit a little with some convincing).

I've read a decent amount about the UTM and UTM-X, and been confused about the conflicting information about them being collimated vs not collimated. Also I've seen that the UTM-X (not sure about the original UTM?) has a full power IR laser that could be compatible with a pressure switch, is this a viable alternative to running a PEQ-15 or other laser on the rifle? Can the UTM-X (and possibly the older UTM) be repeatable enough with the right mount while also removable or swing away?

The other options I've seen are the older CNVD-T (320 core and way outdated but cool nonetheless) and the LWTS. Are there any other optics I should be looking at?

Appreciate the help!

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Take a look at the AGM Rattler-C V2 50-640 Thermal Imaging Clip-On System

• Quick conversion of daytime optics into thermal imaging scope
• 12μm high-sensitivity thermal detector, NETD < 20mK
• Fast 50Hz imaging
• High resolution OLED display
• Adjustable color palettes
• On-board video/audio recording and image capture
• Built-in EMMC storage (16 GB)
• Shot Activated Recording (SAR)
• Wi-Fi data transmission
• Stadiametric rangefinder
• Standby mode
• 9 - 11 hours battery life (depending on model)
• External power supply compatibility
• Waterproof & shockproof

Package Includes

• Mount
• Two Rechargeable Battery
• Charger
• USB Cable
• Lens Cloth
• Manual
• Carrying Case

 

[Dogtown]

^ Chinese core

 

[db2000]

In your budget you will likely handicap yourself trying to avoid Chinesium. While I share your appreciation and diligence to avoid supporting them, you’re likely typing all this from a machine with some sort of parts from Chyna.
Yes, I’m being “that guy”. This conundrum comes up here all the time.
Ultimately do what you want but you’ll need to cough up more clams for “equivalent or better” US made units. There’s folks a lot more versed than me on here with thermals so maybe I’m mistaken.

 

[smcfarland]

Doesn’t exist in your price range. Need to at least double it, and even then likely looking at used units with little or no warranty.

 

[ggmanning]

Take a look at the AGM Rattler-C V2 50-640 Thermal Imaging Clip-On System

• Quick conversion of daytime optics into thermal imaging scope
• 12μm high-sensitivity thermal detector, NETD < 20mK
• Fast 50Hz imaging
• High resolution OLED display
• Adjustable color palettes
• On-board video/audio recording and image capture
• Built-in EMMC storage (16 GB)
• Shot Activated Recording (SAR)
• Wi-Fi data transmission
• Stadiametric rangefinder
• Standby mode
• 9 - 11 hours battery life (depending on model)
• External power supply compatibility
• Waterproof & shockproof

Package Includes

• Mount
• Two Rechargeable Battery
• Charger
• USB Cable
• Lens Cloth
• Manual
• Carrying Case

The AGM clip on has priven quite good for us. Yeah chinese core.....equal to better clarity than my trigicon stuff at a much lower price point. Real no brainer IMO. I believe in USA stuff, however when I can get durable similiar spec stuff at 2.5 to 1 it's not a dilemma.

 

[CTM1]

If you are considering a used unit and are ok with an older unit that has a 320 core perhaps a used FLIR T-50 Clip On.
Shame FLIR got out of the civilian market and did not upgrade them to a 640 core.

My UTM was not collimated. Some have reported being able to do so.
If I recall correctly, it was reported that UTMX's made after some point in late 2014 had the new rear eyepiece which allowed them to be collimated.

 

[TheVolunteers]

Thanks for the replies. To clarify I know that I'm looking at used units in my budget if I wanted to stick with US made. I also know being consistent on my Chinese stance is nearly impossible, but I still try where I can.

Looks like UTMs can be had pretty easily within budget, as well as the older CNVD-T. If I up to $5-6k the LWTS is in range, as is the UTM-X. Are these options that bad if I'm ok with not having the latest and greatest?

 

[Bkultra]

Wait until/if this is released (rumored to be shortly). It's only supposed to be around the 10K mark. If any of this turns out to be true, it might shift the market a little bit.

 

[Dogtown]

They're not great, that's for sure - there's a reason why you see so many UTMs for sale on the second hand market. And there's definitely a less desirable version of the UTM-X (320x @ 30Hz vs 640x @ 60Hz). Personally, I think it all really boils down to what you want to use it for? You're way better off using it for hunting vs banging steel. And if you want it mostly for some paranoid vision of a future America, then you may be disappointed when you take it out to practice on paper and steel, but think "well, I have it just in case and it didn't cost too much."

 

[Bkultra]

It's coming, dance off! With moves this hot you're going to want to see it through the thermal!

 

[Simonsza1]

If you need anything AGM or have any questions feel free to send me a pm and I’ll get you hooked up with a great deal.

 

[Dogtown]

It's coming, dance off! With moves this hot you're going to want to see it through the thermal!

You just unlocked a GenX memory: watching "Grease" on VHS, friend's kid brother asks "Is that really what high school is like?" "Oh course! Why do you think we practice our dance moves all summer?"

 

[TheVolunteers]

They're not great, that's for sure - there's a reason why you see so many UTMs for sale on the second hand market. And there's definitely a less desirable version of the UTM-X (320x @ 30Hz vs 640x @ 60Hz). Personally, I think it all really boils down to what you want to use it for? You're way better off using it for hunting vs banging steel. And if you want it mostly for some paranoid vision of a future America, then you may be disappointed when you take it out to practice on paper and steel, but think "well, I have it just in case and it didn't cost too much."

Guess I'm a little confused because I've read quite a few threads about the LWTS and UTM/UTM-X on here from 3-5 years ago and they received great reviews, and even people said the old CVND-Ts still held up ok despite the aged technology. I know thermal technology moves really quickly, but are these sights really trash in comparison now? Not trying to be combative, this is a genuine question as I don't have a great frame of reference. I'm Army using old PAS-13CV1s, so I guess my standards are pretty low haha.

In reference to your use case question, I am trying to build out my AR to be a pretty good do everything rifle, with the option to hunt while also having a good night optic for passive aiming. I'm not looking to go all red dawn here, but night shooting is a hobby I'm looking to get more into and I do appreciate a well made US made optic with military pedigree, even if it is a little old/outdated. At the end of the day I'm looking for something that is durable and repeatable, and can hopefully be removed easily/pivoted to the side when not needed.

 

[CTM1]

Wait until/if this is released (rumored to be shortly). It's only supposed to be around the 10K mark. If any of this turns out to be true, it might shift the market a little bit.

View attachment 8738285

A budget of $3-4k and he might up it a little to $5-6k. N-Visions CO would be approximately 80% more than his max with tax. No other American made company is going to come near it.

 

[CTM1]

Cannot speak to the LWTS or the UTMX but my UTM made a great handheld scanner and that was it. Dig in the archives for what others have said about actually ownership of the UTM and UTMX.

As I recall the general consensus was that the Wilcox FTS mount which is very expensive did not give repeatable results. The FTS mount was the reason I originally purchased mine and it turned out to be a waste. I know another user on another board said his FTS mount was repeatable. Another user had a fixed mount made for his UTM. Again, dig into the archives and not the claims in for sale ads.

 

[Dogtown]

Yeah, Wilcox FTS is not a great solution if repeatability is a concern. The Unity CTM is superior in that it's repeatable and force-to-overcome.

@TheVolunteers I feel the same way about focusing on USA-made with military pedigree, but it's really hard to do with a $3-4k budget. Maybe there's some confusion between the UTM-X and the UTC-X? Because the latter are still a really good high end thermal and in reasonable demand, but are way outside your budget. Also keep in mind that these used Oasys products have no warranty, so in the odd chance you have issues they become an expensive brick.

 

[TheVolunteers]

All good feedback, since I'm mostly interested in clip on functionality I'll probably drop the UTM/UTM-X from the list. I think that just leaves the LWTS or the CNVD-T unless I'm missing something. Both have a lot of military pedigree, just aging technology. I haven't seen too many LWTS for sale, which is maybe saying something as far as how they've held up optics-wise over the years?

 

[the_assman]

for your price range and use maybe a bering optics super yoter c. best use is as a clip on but it can also be used as a handheld scanner or mounted on a tripod as a spotter. up to 10x optical mag should be no problem for it and they work very good in high humidity

some foreign parts and Chinese core but built and serviced in the usa

sig also has it's clip on in your price range and similar to bering optics , foreign parts built and serviced in the usa. 10x optical mag might be pushing it on the sig with it's 25mm lens though

 

[Magsz18]

Wait until/if this is released (rumored to be shortly). It's only supposed to be around the 10K mark. If any of this turns out to be true, it might shift the market a little bit.

View attachment 8738285
Fuck that Toyota Corolla. Just go buy a Porsche GT3 RS.

I'm sure that will be a nice unit but that is way outside of the OP's budget.

OP, are you dead set on a clip on? Your options expand significantly if you are willing to go to a dedicated weapon sight.

 

[Bkultra]

View attachment 8738285
Fuck that Toyota Corolla. Just go buy a Porsche GT3 RS.

I'm sure that will be a nice unit but that is way outside of the OP's budget.

OP, are you dead set on a clip on? Your options expand significantly if you are willing to go to a dedicated weapon sight.

Hence why I was said it would shift the market. Coming out with a unit with those specs at 10K is going to drop the prices of every other unit. People will be dumping their old units to jump on this one, etc. But what a great point you made

 

[TheVolunteers]

OP, are you dead set on a clip on? Your options expand significantly if you are willing to go to a dedicated weapon sight.

Not dead set, I just have an audere mount on my March that is not quick release so I don't have an easy/repeatable way to switch back and forth. I suppose I could get a very minimal height quick release riser to put the mount on... maybe worth investigating.

 

[Magsz18]

Hence why I was said it would shift the market. Coming out with a unit with those specs at 10K is going to drop the prices of every other unit. People will be dumping their old units to jump on this one, etc. But what a great point you made

I don't see this dropping pricing, at all.

There is a giant disparity in price between the Chinese offerings and the American made offerings. Not a single Chinese produced optic is going to drop in price because of this. Price competition in the imported market comes from the imported market. I don't think Pixels On Target is going to be threatened by this whatsoever as they've got their claws firmly planted in their military contracts. What other American makers am I missing?

I'm excited for the Nvision product as I like what they produce. I think this is going to be a super cool unit but I absolutely do not think that this is going to somehow make optics more affordable.

 

[Dogtown]

Hence why I was said it would shift the market. Coming out with a unit with those specs at 10K is going to drop the prices of every other unit. People will be dumping their old units to jump on this one, etc. But what a great point you made

<cries in Voodoo-MX>

 

[Bkultra]

UTC Xii... But I have that rare cool factor (no warranty) and still one of the best form factors. Vooddoo M and UTC X/Xii. Post cost well over 10K for long range capabilities and do not boast those specs. So yes, I think it'll change the pricing of the market. No it's not going to tank everything but it might give him more options if he waits.

 

[Magsz18]

UTC Xii... But I have that rare cool factor (no warranty) and still one of the best form factors. Vooddoo M and UTC X/Xii. Post cost over 10K for long range capabilities and do not boast those specs. So yes, I think it'll change the pricing of the market. No it's not going to tank everything but it might give him more options if he waits.

We will see what happens.

This doesn't change the fact that 10k is still way beyond his budget.

 

[db2000]

We will see what happens.

This doesn't change the fact that 10k is still way beyond his budget.

Just triple your budget.
- The Hide

 

[Dogtown]

It goes hand in hand with the "I want alpha glass with these features, but I'm not spending more than $500"

 

[TheVolunteers]

It goes hand in hand with the "I want alpha glass with these features, but I'm not spending more than $500"

Hey I'm not that bad lol. I at least tried throwing out options in my price range before you all tried to upcharge me...

 

[SkyScrapin]

We have some Guide Clip-Ons that punch above their class and are extremely competitive price wise.

They hold up to abuse contrary to most Chinese solutions. Yes - they got the wuhan. Majority of the products in your price range are as well.

 

[Dogtown]

Hey I'm not that bad lol. I at least tried throwing out options in my price range before you all tried to upcharge me...

No you're good, but there are people here who want the world for $2, and the cope is interesting.

 

[Waddles0931]

OP I have a UTM and it is pretty good but I'm sure stuff like the Guide units would be well worth the money and maybe more worth it considering all the features. Speaking for myself my UTM is collimated and I've shot steel out to 300 yards clipping it on and off with no zero shift, it sits in front of a Trijicon Credo 1-10 and it works at 10x but 5-6x is where the picture kinda fizzles out. It is a 640 core with a 30hz refresh rate which kinda sucks for looking around as a monocular but isn't bad when panning around in front of a day optic. I've also accidentally dropped it really hard onto concrete 3 different times from knocking my rifle over and it's still trucking. All that said I plan on picking up a Guide TB630 at some point because they look phenomenal for the money.

 

[Waddles0931]

This is me shooting my BAE UTM on steel at 300