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LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

pullman456

Private
Minuteman
Oct 29, 2009
27
0
45
WA, US
www.palouseops.com
Trying to get a feel on how many LE shooters out there are using a semi-auto sniper rifle versus the typical bolt gun. If so, any comments, concerns, or suggestions are appreciated. (i.e. reasoning, weapon system, liability issues, training standards, etc.)

I'm debating on incorporating a semi (P308) into our group of three bolt guns and looking for feedback.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Most all of the SWAT/SERT units around here are still running boltguns as agency budgets are tight and getting approval for a new weapon system can be a lengthy proposition. I was going to offer to demo "POF-USA" rifles and "US Optics" to your agency but I see that you are already a POF dealer. I hope that you are able to sway your dept into making the change as there are some great weapon systems out there that would definately suit the bill. Steve.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PalouseOps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trying to get a feel on how many LE shooters out there are using a semi-auto sniper rifle versus the typical bolt gun. If so, any comments, concerns, or suggestions are appreciated. (i.e. reasoning, weapon system, liability issues, training standards, etc.)</div></div>

There are no additional liability concerns over a standard bolt gun assuming that you hold them to the same qualification, inspection and maintenance standards.

Training can be altered to maximize the rapid engagement capabilities, however that isn't really a likelihood in the LE world. I have trouble envisioning a situation where one shooter would have to drop three or four suspects.

The rate of fire advantage of the semi is an easy lure, however IMHO the main advantage of the rifles are that you can shoot them from strange positions and not have to worry about running the bolt.

Mainly the choice comes down to cost and reliability. Average bolt guns are still more reliable than the most highly tuned semi-autos.

A loaded AR10 sure looks wicked though. I know I always get comments when mine makes an appearance on the range. I don't use it for work though. I much prefer the AI.

A top end semi-auto is not a "bad" choice. I just don't think it's a realistic choice for LE work.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Doesn't matter what weapon system you use because no matter what if there is a threat then you shoot the subject till the threat is gone or stops. Many people believe that LE can't shoot a subject with a sniper rifle more than once, but that just isn't the case.

On a static range where targets aren't moving making a head shot is a pretty easy task, but in live situations the bad guys don't stand still and your shots will be far less from perfect. You are going to probably have to shoot more than once so why not have a semi auto system that is capable of doin it. Plus bad guys don't stand out in the open, they stand behind doors, windows, and vehicles you may have to shoot thru something for the first shot which may deflect or just wound the subject. Anyone looking for perfect senarios is going to wait a long time to get it, bolt guns limit your capabilities in my opinion. Semi autos are accurate enough these days and are much faster for when you do have to shoot more than once.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I had to buy my own before going to school, I had a Rem 700 SPS bull barrel with a McMillian A-5 stock ect. I now have a DPMS LR-308 with a PRS stock and the Wislon Comabt TTU single stage that is non adj. and set at 4 lbs. I have 300 rnds through my stick before shoulder surgery took me out of comission for this year. I allways had a hard time getting comfortable behind the 700 platform even though I shot well with it. I have a 14 1/2 LOP and had the max. adj. lop on my stock. As soon as I got behind the AR platform to me it felt like that was what the Doctor ordered so to speak.I grew up hunting with bolt actions and still feal they are a fine weapon system. I have how ever spent much more time behind an AR platform shooting and that was why when I got behind my LR-308, it was a familiar feel, only being bigger and having a different trigger.I think one should also look at your area of operation, where I have both rual, country, and soccer mon heaven,(mall)I have the ability to load 1 rnd only or put in a 5 rnd mag, or a 20 rnd PMAG for whatever screwed up reason that most likely may not ever happen in which I can accurately fire as soon as a sight picture is obtained in a rifle that dont hardly recoil any way, and if fecces hits the rotary ocilator, I can load another 20 mighty darn quick. My Team commander likes the idea of having a semi-auto platform for its diversity. I also agree with LoneWolf that not having to cycle the bolt in tight areas or awkward positions.And also with what Hogstooth stated, how often do you get the perfect senario where the bad guy(s) are static and right in the open? Also its alot easier to walk rounds in with an AR platform vs. a bolt I sold the 700 to my best friend who had came back from Iraq for his 4th time. I asked my armorer and my Chief as well as my SWAT Team commander and was told as long as an armorer or civillain certified gun smith changes out the trigger assembly your fine there and you qualify with the weapon no liability issues.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

As a Special Operations Team member (entry not sniper) for Tulsa OK I can say that our snipers are pushing hard for semi-autos. They even put on a demo for the team putting a guy on a bolt vs. a guy on a LR 308 semi to show the advantages of the semi platform. The lucky bastards just got a 50 so new semis were not in the budget but I know they will be pushing for them.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hogstooth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You are going to probably have to shoot more than once so why not have a semi auto system that is capable of doin it.</div></div>

I will have to disagree with that. So do the statistics. The vast majority of LE Sniper engagements are under 100 yards (av. 55.8 yards as of Jan.2009) and ended with a single shot.

I am not a fan of letting the statistics rule when choosing equipment or training. The reality is that SWAT Snipers are employed when "average" measures have failed and the extraordinary is required. However I usually look for credible scenarios to guide the choices. We don't gear up to drop the zombies on main street. I leave that crap for the video game crowd.

What I suggest is that if your department is equipped to the gills with every other conceivable need (excellent comm., Night Vision, Optics, etc.) then go ahead and add a gas gun to the arsenal. It sure isn't going to hurt anything to have that choice. If you had to provide overwatch for a gathering where a mass terror attack would be possible, it might be a nice platform to have along. If you don't have Night Vision or comm or binos for each of your snipers/observers, then you need to re-evaluate why you are going to buy a more expensive weapons system when we are far more likely to be called on to provide intel than a tactical interdiction.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

A town of less than 30,000 needs high rate of fire, semi-auto precision rifles? For what? Have you had even one single crime or situation in the last 10 years that would necessitate that kind of firepower? I doubt it.

According to http://www.city-data.com/city/Pullman-Washington.html
you have 2 murders this decade, and 25 robberies. It seems to me that 3 precision bolt rifles is more than enough.

The militarization of the police force in the US is one of the biggest threats to freedom and autonomy individuals have. No need to exacerbate the problem.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeman3519</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a Special Operations Team member (entry not sniper) for Tulsa OK I can say that our snipers are pushing hard for semi-autos. They even put on a demo for the team putting a guy on a bolt vs. a guy on a LR 308 semi to show the advantages of the semi platform. The lucky bastards just got a 50 so new semis were not in the budget but I know they will be pushing for them. </div></div>

Why on earth would a police unit need a 50?

Overkill anyone?
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeman3519</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a Special Operations Team member (entry not sniper) for Tulsa OK I can say that our snipers are pushing hard for semi-autos. They even put on a demo for the team putting a guy on a bolt vs. a guy on a LR 308 semi to show the advantages of the semi platform. The lucky bastards just got a 50 so new semis were not in the budget but I know they will be pushing for them. </div></div>

Is that the new high speed term used for SWAT/ESU now?
crazy.gif
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why on earth would a police unit need a 50?

Overkill anyone? </div></div>

Yeah. . .Living in Tulsa, with a police force working on a shoe string budget AFTER laying off a lot of them, I'd really like to know WTF our police need with a 50. WTF are you going to do, get on top of the BOK Center and shoot target practice at USSA?
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.R. Sherman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why on earth would a police unit need a 50?

Overkill anyone? </div></div>

Yeah. . .Living in Tulsa, with a police force working on a shoe string budget AFTER laying off a lot of them, I'd really like to know WTF our police need with a 50. WTF are you going to do, get on top of the BOK Center and shoot target practice at USSA?</div></div>





hell....i would not even make Jenks america from there
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

My team tried the implimentation of a semi-auto sniper rifle for about a year. We got rid of it. I think LoneWolf has given some pretty good advice to you in this area.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I have a buddy that is on a local SWAT team, and they have 3 AI's and a LWRC REPR, and 2 Armalite AR-10's. They haven't touched the AR-10's since the REPR came on the scene. It is a platform that can fill in the gaps. They could do entry work with the 110GR Tap, DMR with the 175GR, or active shooter situation with either round. They have over 1200 rounds with it, and love it better than ever. Not 1 hick-up. I think it makes a bunch of sense to a well outfitted PD. JPG
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I had to buy my own before going to school, I had a Rem 700 SPS bull barrel with a McMillian A-5 stock ect. I now have a DPMS LR-308 with a PRS stock and the Wislon Comabt TTU single stage that is non adj. and set at 4 lbs. I have 300 rnds through my stick before shoulder surgery took me out of comission for this year. I allways had a hard time getting comfortable behind the 700 platform even though I shot well with it. I have a 14 1/2 LOP and had the max. adj. lop on my stock. As soon as I got behind the AR platform to me it felt like that was what the Doctor ordered so to speak.I grew up hunting with bolt actions and still feal they are a fine weapon system. I have how ever spent much more time behind an AR platform shooting and that was why when I got behind my LR-308, it was a familiar feel, only being bigger and having a different trigger.I think one should also look at your area of operation, where I have both rual, country, and soccer mon heaven,(mall)I have the ability to load 1 rnd only or put in a 5 rnd mag, or a 20 rnd PMAG for whatever screwed up reason that most likely may not ever happen in which I can accurately fire as soon as a sight picture is obtained in a rifle that dont hardly recoil any way, and if fecces hits the rotary ocilator, I can load another 20 mighty darn quick. My Team commander likes the idea of having a semi-auto platform for its diversity. I also agree with LoneWolf that not having to cycle the bolt in tight areas or awkward positions.And also with what Hogstooth stated, how often do you get the perfect senario where the bad guy(s) are static and right in the open? Also its alot easier to walk rounds in with an AR platform vs. a bolt I sold the 700 to my best friend who had came back from Iraq for his 4th time. I asked my armorer and my Chief as well as my SWAT Team commander and was told as long as an armorer or civillain certified gun smith changes out the trigger assembly your fine there and you qualify with the weapon no liability issues. </div></div>

I agree, not having to cycle the bolt and being able to focus on target acquisition instead of muscle memory to get a new round would save time and lives if the shot was deflected by glass or off its intended mark.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

The type of rifle doesn't matter: Nothing changes.

But, depending on the officer, it might be harder to train an officer to use and to shoot a semi properly compared to a bolt gun in the designated marksman role.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why the ongoing militarization of America's police is TERRIBLE.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf </div></div>

First of all, I appreciate the feedback from folks out there. Eleaf's comments however, seem to be spoken with a bit of reluctance towards police...for whatever reason. As far as militarization of police goes, consider the following:

The typical "bad guy" sets out to accomplish their objective, just like any enemy, foreign or domestic. Its the means in which they try to complete their objective which is ever evolving. Shouldn't the people confronting them evolve as well?

Today's law enforcement training walks hand in hand with military training/tactics, and visa versa. Why do you think during the first Gulf War, cops trained infantry and tank commanders on conducting a "felony stop" with the Abrams tank. Or what SWAT officers serving in the military trained with the infantry to conduct building searches and entries. Overkill? No, its sound tactics that are used so that most trainers don't/shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel because it works and hopefully saves lives.

I was looking for feedback, pluses or minuses to incorporating a semi-auto rifle over for the modern LE sniper. I wasn't trying to debate LE tactics, nor should you. Just be glad that there are those of us out there that regardless of what names we are called, or how we are thought of, still answer the '911' call when you need help.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A town of less than 30,000 needs high rate of fire, semi-auto precision rifles? For what? Have you had even one single crime or situation in the last 10 years that would necessitate that kind of firepower? I doubt it.

According to http://www.city-data.com/city/Pullman-Washington.html
you have 2 murders this decade, and 25 robberies. It seems to me that 3 precision bolt rifles is more than enough.

The militarization of the police force in the US is one of the biggest threats to freedom and autonomy individuals have. No need to exacerbate the problem. </div></div>



By this reasoning, I have never been robbed ,mugged or raped, so why should I reach for my 1911 to tuck in and use my CCW rights when I leave home?
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PalouseOps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Just be glad that there are those of us out there that regardless of what names we are called, or how we are thought of, still answer the '911' call when you need help. </div></div>

+1 Brother
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

By responding further to his posts you are just assisting him in derailing this thread.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why the ongoing militarization of America's police is TERRIBLE.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf </div></div>
as a texas police officer i can say 100% that most modern police officers are mall ninjas....there is a time and place for everything...and i can see the use of a semi auto rifle mainly because most officers are used to the AR platform so there isnt much of a learning curve....but a 50?...they need to pull there head out of there ass on that one...if a situation occurs where a 50 is needed, guess what? a police department isnt going to handle that situation...you are going to get back seated with the rest of the kids who fell out of the blackhawk catalog...

bench
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

If we follow some of the reasoning here we should do away with LE EOD programs because no one ever uses explosives.
Are 50's a reach for some Departments, yes. But if you have covered the basics with equipment and there is money why not. There have been several incidents in Arizona where the only workable option was a 50 or something similar because of a hard target that would have needed to be punched through. The only reason they were not used was the situation ended without the shot being taken. Good or bad, sometimes you just need to go through something to get to the soft interior.
I have done enough site surveys to say that there are alot more buildings/means of transportation that a 308 or even a 338 lapua simply would not have made it through the armored glass or door, and got the job done on the other side to stop the threat.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I use an Armalite AR-10T and I faced an uphill battle to do so. Once I proved that I was very accurate with it I got the blessing to use it.


In regards to L.E.A. using .50s I would say they do have their place but I will concede the odds of using it would be almost next to none. If an agency has port duties or patrolling water ways a .50 would be very effective for taking out boat motors. I can't remember but there was an incident that took place about 10-15 yrs ago in a very small new england town. I forget all of the details but this guy owned a business and was upset with the town about zoning changes having a negative effect on his busniess.The guy fought long and hard in court but eventualy lost. Well the guy armored up a bulldozer and tore up downtown for hours,some of it was caught on video. Responding officers shot at him with handguns, 5.56s and 7.62s to no effect. The guy ran out of gas and took his own life. The argument could and was made if theofficers had a larger caliber rifle they could have ended the man's rampage alot sooner. Like I said the use of a .50 for everyday use would be nil but the arguement can be made to have them in a armory. While I don't feel we NEED one and I have never seen a use for one in any of our deployments but I do know where to get a few if we ever need them (friends).
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

We are a municipality of around 1.2 million plus. We are running 3 semi-auto .308's out of 8 now. The rest are AI AW .308's. I initially started on a .223 semi-auto and after it expired I transitioned to an AI. Now I'm back on a semi-auto .308 and all .223 semi-autos are phased out. We also have a couple of .50 cal Barrets for interdiction as well as area denialin site protection. We had a time or two where they could have been used to stop semi trucks, but the administration backed us down.

For the semi auto I find target reacquisition is faster because there is no bolt manipulation and reduced recoil. There is always the possiblity of a failure to feed, extract, double feed etc. with the gas guns and a little more maintenance.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why on earth would a police unit need a 50?

Overkill anyone? </div></div>

There are departments who thing AR's are overkill. Didn't work too well in North Hollywood.

It's about threat assessment. Then after threat assessment it's about equipment and training budgets. The equipment a Police Department has at it's disposal does not change the laws it must obey.

Having carried a .50BMG in the Marine Corps I can tell you that when you NEED a .50, nothing else will do.

Lastly, when you call a carpenter do you tell him what tools he can and can't use? Or do you just tell him what needs to be fixed?

Sure, we can stick to revolvers and shotguns until AFTER we have an American Beslan. They you can ask why we weren't better prepared.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why on earth would a police unit need a 50?

Overkill anyone?</div></div>

Why would ANY civilian on the planet need a 50 or a 338 for that matter. Works both ways sport-o.

Garland PD (suburb of Dallas) has AR10's. I shot one the other day. Very nice and very accurate. Wouldnt mind lobbying our Admin for one or two.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Eleaf, how many times have you been robbed, assaulted, or your house broken into?
If the answer is never, or just once, then you should go ahead and turn in all of you weapons. Why do civilians need SBR's, suppressors, 30 round mags, etc? I'd rather have something and never have to use it than to needing something in the middle of a call.

To the OP, you may want to check 10-8forums as it is mainly LE and Military guys. LoneWolf has posted some great info along with the others.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Dayton Ohio P.D. SWAT has 1 or 2 .50's.
I dont think it would be a bad idea to have one, again depending on your area. I remember either Dallas or Kansas City SWAT stopping a semi-tractor trailer with 1 round to the engine block. A male suspect had stolen the rig and was armed.It was either the truck drivers wife and her puppy were in the rig or the truck driver was a female and had her puppy with her, anyway they ended up going for a ride.SWAT was able to bring the situation under controll without loss of life to the female victim and I believe the suspect.Kinda hard to punch through a deisel engine with a .308 or .338. Now ask yourself do we want to adapt our weapon platforms to our tactics, or our tactics to our weapon platforms? I do know that ontop of some of these buildings in city the wind gets mighty whippy and I would think that a .50 would be better apt to deal with that than a .308 or 338. Again all of us come from different areas with different possible senarios and we all know its a ever changing world with different dangers every day and we sheep dogs need to keep the wolves at bay by being able to change weapon systems and tactics to that even if it means, " militarization".So that men, that dont understand what we do to keep them and thier loved ones safe can tell us how to do ours jobs when they call and then question why.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: benchmstr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why the ongoing militarization of America's police is TERRIBLE.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf </div></div>
as a texas police officer i can say 100% that most modern police officers are mall ninjas....there is a time and place for everything...and i can see the use of a semi auto rifle mainly because most officers are used to the AR platform so there isnt much of a learning curve....but a 50?...they need to pull there head out of there ass on that one...<span style="color: #FF0000">if a situation occurs where a 50 is needed, guess what? a police department isnt going to handle that situation...you are going to get back seated with the rest of the kids who fell out of the blackhawk catalog...</span>bench </div></div>

nope, your right, NO situation could EVER happen where police might need a .50BMG.
armored dozer (as mentioned) Semi truck dump truck
then theres the ROUGE TANK one in CA. .50 prolly wouldnt have helped there, but I dont see anyone dealing with the situation besides the cops.. do you?
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I guess I'm torn here on my response. Why would any civilian need it? There's a few people in the world that would love to have so much as a .22 to utilize against their governments but can't.

So the civilians here can own one, and it's proven fact that civilians go bad. Even the one out of tens of thousands that went through tons of legalities to get his SBR, suppressor, God-forbid a full auto, or otherwise can suddenly be "that guy". Therefore, the police need something bigger to overpower the civilians.

I actually read a good bit of that report that eleaf posted, and it wasn't anything that really surprised me. Shit happens. The responses even seem to follow it though. Instead of de-escalating his response by refusing to bait him with it, he's being jumped on repeatedly. Which happens here at the hide, you have to expect it, and I generally don't pay attention to.

I agree that having the right tools for a job is the right thing way to be. I guess AR-600 plated bulldozers, rouge colored tanks(couldn't resist) in civilian hands, and semi's that the tires couldn't be shredded are those kinds of scenarios.

I'm not LEO though. I'm just John Q. Public that sees Tulsa PD claiming to be hanging by threads at bare-bones levels, adding something else that they'll have to spend extra time and money to train with.

As always, my opinions, you're welcome to flame and YMMV.

ETA: Also, I apologize to the OP for assisting in the de-railing of this train, as well as assisting to flog the belated carriage puller.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Here is the problem, most PDs look at things like they need to fix every problem themself because we can not just call up military and get an air strike. That means every PD wants everything. What they really need to do is work on better mutual aide set ups and pool resources so we dont all go broke with five million 50 cal rifles in US Police forces.

Now everyone else wants to look at statistics which mens averages which means Shit when the weird stuff happens

Its alll a balancing act.

Semi auto sniper system should be in any SWAT/ERT/what ever they call you response teams arsenal.

50 bmg is for penetration and some agencies may have a need for them but you really have to consider problem of over penetration here in urban places.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<span style="color: #000099"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"Police departments should have everything they NEED, not everything they WANT."</span></span></div></div></span>
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Problem is that many people have no idea how Departments and government agencies are run. There are things like grants/grant money that is either used or you lose it. And those grants can't be used for other things. So if you apply for the homeland security grant, you can't use that money for overtime or other things that aren't related to homeland security. So I'd an agency wants to use the grant money to buy a .50, that is up to them.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why the ongoing militarization of America's police is TERRIBLE.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf </div></div>

The same people that complain that the police do too much are the same people that complain when something happens and complain that we don't do enough. People are already bitching about the growing violence since the mass police layoffs in NJ. But they were the same people bitching that we get paid too much. There's no free lunch. You Wang us to stop searching your innocent kids for drugs, then drugs get out of control and people complain that we do nothing about the drug problem. So which is it? You want us to be proactive or reactive?
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Wow. Sorry this became a 50 cal thread about police tactics. Yes. SOT is a different name for SWAT. I can't remember with what grant we bought the 50 with but it was made available to us and we jumped on it. There have been several examples of situations where a 50 is justified cited here so stop trying to debate its necessity. The idea of a mutual aid agreement with the military to provide more fire power if a situation dictates is ludacris and impractical. There would be way too long of a time lag for them to arrive and intervene in a situation while we merely contained it.

Back on topic please.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

If some teams want .308 autoloaders then they should get them. Its not like they asking for m240s hell a lot od depts have been using auto 308s for many decades in M14/M1As so the use of 308 gas guns by LE aint anything new.
As far as the use of .50s by L.E. a very well known successful counter terrorist operation involved killing multiple terrorist through a aircraft cockpit windshield while simultaneously the main CT team boarded and secured the aircraft..both terrorist were shot by GIGN snipers firing 50cal SWS. while rest were killed by the boarding team.
Many tools for the job..but you better be qualified to use it proficiently or it becomes a big liability. And come a time when you need to stop playing and step aside.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problem is that many people have no idea how Departments and government agencies are run. There are things like grants/grant money that is either used or you lose it. And those grants can't be used for other things. So if you apply for the homeland security grant, you can't use that money for overtime or other things that aren't related to homeland security. So I'd an agency wants to use the grant money to buy a .50, that is up to them. </div></div>For Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams I have no problem with it. Tier 3 teams, however, are a different story.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

What do you mean by a 'different training standard'?

Obviously there would be a different training 'protocol'. You train differently with a bolt gun than a gas gun. But different 'standard'?

Different qualification 'course' perhaps (given that you can utilize the system differently), but the 'standard' should be the same. For example if you require a 95% passing score with the bolt gun, you wouldnt require a 98% or 90% with the gas gun simply because it is a different system.

That would be like saying since we have one AI rifle, one HS Precision rifle and one Remington rifle, the AI quals at 98%, the HSP at 95% and the Rem at 93%.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

The Dallas semi truck chase didn't end with a .50 cal to the engine block. That is the scenerio I was referring to where the administration stood us down. The State Troopers used an AR15 to shoot out the tires, radiator and fuel tank. The engine started to overheat and the protective functions of the ECM defueled the engine slowly and then shut it down. Now the shooting of the fuel tank still amazes me, but luckily nothing happened.
Would the .50 have been the ideal tool in ending a hostage scenerio truck chase? I don't think so. We've done numerous tests on bus engines, Cat diesels, car engines etc. The standard AP round can do significant damage, but nothing that will cease the engine from running instantlly unless you hit it perfectly. The tungsten penetrator can penetrate the cast iron, but most of the time it did some damage, lost velocity and ricocheted and/or broke into pieces. We even had one ricochet into the glove box of the passenger compartment off a perpindicular shot. I think a shotgun with frangible 00 Buck into the radiator is the way to go. It allows the driver to maintain control while the ECM does its thing slowly. Anyways...

I've shot with the Garland guys at schools and competition and their Armalite AR10's. They were sent to GAP for accurizing and shoot very well. We went with LaRue OSR's and have had great results with them so far. We will be shooting them in Craft's aerial platform school.

For the training, we train just as we did before with the bolt guns. The manipulation of the semi-auto is where we experience slight differences. The fundamentals are all the same and we qualify quarterly on the same course of fire. If you run standards like CSAT's standard drills you will find that the semi-autos will have faster times. I am not sure why because they were all 1 shot time drills.

As more people obtain various weapons and develop various motivations in our country there is an intrinsic need or desire to be on the same playing field. Like what was stated earlier, tank chase, Hollywood Bank Robbery, Richardson shootout, etc. Having tools and training to respond to events of this nature help resolve them quickly in most cases. I, for one, would want law enforcement to be prepared for anything thrown at them and not responsive after the fact.

 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

The standard is the same. You drive the gun differently, though.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Well damn, thanks for squaring me away Insayn, it had been awhile since I saw that, I could have sworn that the OP took a shot from the arnored car and disabled the semi.Time for some push ups lol.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you mean by a 'different training standard'?

Obviously there would be a different training 'protocol'. You train differently with a bolt gun than a gas gun. But different 'standard'?

Different qualification 'course' perhaps (given that you can utilize the system differently), but the 'standard' should be the same. For example if you require a 95% passing score with the bolt gun, you wouldnt require a 98% or 90% with the gas gun simply because it is a different system.

That would be like saying since we have one AI rifle, one HS Precision rifle and one Remington rifle, the AI quals at 98%, the HSP at 95% and the Rem at 93%. </div></div>

The standard I'm referring to is the training and qualification. I'll give you an example, even though you were mostly spot on.

On our quals we have to score a 90% or better. The course was written for a bolt gun and is only a total of 20 rounds fired with only two stages as a timed event. (This is a state standard.)

We don't have a semi-auto qualification or policy requirement that is any different. I think the 90% should remain, and is certainly obtainable, but since the semi's have a role unto themselves, do you think it would be a good thing to have a course (standard per-say) different than the one already in print?
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Just to set the slate clean on this thread...I'm not talking about .50cals, belt fed machine guns, AT4's, claymores, or any other high-speed low drag gear like that...(Just because I'd love to have it doesn't mean I think I need them at work. We have enough liability issues with OC spray, one could only imagine the others.)

Let's keep the input coming in the form of thoughts and opinions on sub MOA semi-auto rifles compared to bolt actions for LE snipers.

I appreciate the input so far from folks. I'm also glad to hear that some of you have some first-hand experience on duty with them. This is what I'm looking for.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PalouseOps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you mean by a 'different training standard'?

Obviously there would be a different training 'protocol'. You train differently with a bolt gun than a gas gun. But different 'standard'?

Different qualification 'course' perhaps (given that you can utilize the system differently), but the 'standard' should be the same. For example if you require a 95% passing score with the bolt gun, you wouldnt require a 98% or 90% with the gas gun simply because it is a different system.

That would be like saying since we have one AI rifle, one HS Precision rifle and one Remington rifle, the AI quals at 98%, the HSP at 95% and the Rem at 93%. </div></div>

The standard I'm referring to is the training and qualification. I'll give you an example, even though you were mostly spot on.

On our quals we have to score a 90% or better. The course was written for a bolt gun and is only a total of 20 rounds fired with only two stages as a timed event. (This is a state standard.)

We don't have a semi-auto qualification or policy requirement that is any different. I think the 90% should remain, and is certainly obtainable, but since the semi's have a role unto themselves, do you think it would be a good thing to have a course (standard per-say) different than the one already in print? </div></div>

The qualification course is to test that the precision shooter, weapon and ammunition are capable of shooting given targets at given distances under a given time (if applicable). It should be the same across the board for the duty (precision marksman/sniper). Just because one variable changes, there is no need to adopt a different qualification course . If one shooter is better than another we don't adopt a different course for that shooter. The variable you are really testing is the shooter. The weapon system and ammunition selected should be capable of 1 MOA anyways.
We run one qualification course for both systems and our course of fire ranges from 25 yards out to 300 yards. We qual 4 times a year and shoot 3 rounds at each stage to save ammunition costs and reduce wear on the rifles. We train as a group weekly and have the opportunity to train more depending on our assignments.

On operations we generally tried to partner our teams up in bolt gun/semi-auto configurations. Our squads are almost set up that way naturally, with one bolt, one semi-auto. That developed because the .223 shooters were supporting the .308 shooters. Similar to the sniper/spotter setup.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

The QUALIFICATION does not need to change. The TRAINING should be changed to exercise the advantages of the gas gun.

Don't ever confuse Training and Qualification. That can get you in to very expensive trouble inside a courtroom.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The TRAINING should be changed to exercise the advantages of the gas gun.</div></div>

The training should also be modified for the differences between a bolt gun and a gas gun. And, if a team is going to have both, it may be useful to expand the training somewhat, so all the team members are equally proficient with each.

A gas gun is harder to shoot to the same precision standard as well, as most people who have transitioned from a bolt to a semi have experienced.
 
Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeman3519</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a Special Operations Team member (entry not sniper) for Tulsa OK I can say that our snipers are pushing hard for semi-autos. They even put on a demo for the team putting a guy on a bolt vs. a guy on a LR 308 semi to show the advantages of the semi platform. The lucky bastards just got a 50 so new semis were not in the budget but I know they will be pushing for them. </div></div>

Why on earth would a police unit need a 50?

Overkill anyone? </div></div>

Vehicle immobilization, barrier penetration.

Having a semi-auto precision rifle is a threat to your freedoms?

How? Cite some no bullshit stats.

I see this bullshit has infected this site too.