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Least expensive AR you’d trust your life to?

Do you actually own that P7 M13?

If so, you could consider ordering some of the wood Nill Grips.
Considering what that pistol is worth now days, you might as well dress it up a bit more for fun.


Just as a note, your grammar is fairly bad, you might want to proofread a little before posting.
I, for one, think it’s great they finally got internet in those state homes for retarded adults.
I, for one, think it’s great they finally got internet in those state homes for retarded adults.
I, for one, think it’s great they finally got internet in those state homes for retarded adults.

Big thumbs and iphones do not make for easy typing, that said you get the point, and i do own it bought new in 90, for $900 and mystified how much they are, passed on a stainless 40 a few years back new in box for $1200 and have see. Two recently asking $14000. I could danm near buyba singer sewing 1911 for a bit more, what your take on the massive price?
 
Dumb is a group where those that mock contribute nothing, any comment you would deem stupid, my comments are intended to exact a response. Which since you’re unable to articulate an intelligent remark you are now dumber so lets see if there any actual nuerons operating in that head of yours. Two gun in photo comment on both with something interesting good or bad and if bad why

Congratulations on finding the period key finally. A heroin junkie high as fuck still makes more sense than you though.
 
what your take on the massive price?

Scarcity, Collectability and Inflation.

It was an iconic and unique design that is unlikely to ever be made again.
Of the P7 series, the M17s in both 9 and and to a greater extent in .40 were limited production even when new.
The standard P7 was made in much larger numbers, but even that commands a significant price these days.

H&K firearms have a fairly robust collector community, especially for out of production models.

Then you have to factor in inflation.
I remember when excellent condition Soviet SKS rifles were all over the gun shows for $80 or less by the crateload.
Today a good condition one would probably fetch north of $700
But it's not just firearms, back at that same time gasoline was in the $0.69 / gallon range as compared to knocking on the door of $5.00 today.

As money steadily becomes worth less, many other things with scarcity and a large community of collectors start to rise in value as people use them as a store of wealth.

Here is what the Nills Grips look like:

P7 Crop.jpg

P7-2.jpg
 
Scarcity, Collectability and Inflation.

It was an iconic and unique design that is unlikely to ever be made again.
Of the P7 series, the M17s in both 9 and and to a greater extent in .40 were limited production even when new.
The standard P7 was made in much larger numbers, but even that commands a significant price these days.

H&K firearms have a fairly robust collector community, especially for out of production models.

Then you have to factor in inflation.
I remember when excellent condition Soviet SKS rifles were all over the gun shows for $80 or less by the crateload.
Today a good condition one would probably fetch north of $700
But it's not just firearms, back at that same time gasoline was in the $0.69 / gallon range as compared to knocking on the door of $5.00 today.

As money steadily becomes worth less, many other things with scarcity and a large community of collectors start to rise in value as people use them as a store of wealth.

Here is what the Nills Grips look like:

View attachment 7885065
View attachment 7885066
Looks great!
 
Was talking guns with one of my sub contractors today. He was talking about “battle rifles” he’d trust his life to. He named a few of the typical upper echelon rifles like Knight’s, LMT, hodge, Radian (pretty sure he just googled “best AR”) etc… I get only wanting the absolute best, we all want the best but dropping $2,500-3,000 isn't in the cards for some people. My Brother in Law for example has been wanting an AR that won’t break the bank for his go bag/shtf rifle.

At this point he’s said he’s better off spending $1,000 bucks on a rifle and buying a bunch of ammo to go train with. (I agree 100% with that, a $3k rifle is only as good as the guy running it)

I don’t have a ton of experience with semi autos so I figured I’d ask here. Any body have recommendations for stuff in the $1000-$1200 range? Is that a realistic budget to get a decent rifle in today’s world?
I have a few PSA builds that work and work well, but I’m not sure I’d want to run them as a shtf gun. I liked my BCM but I sold it to fund another project before I could really put a ton of rounds through it. Like I said earlier I’m not real into semi auto’s so I dont know where to start with a recommendation.
Use the M4 as a guide, if the US is with a $625 low tech turd , aside from select fire anything with a decent barrel and bolt will do. My scrap built mk12 clone with a 18” match barrel will out shoot any 16” carbine, for under 500 i embarrassed his $1800 DD so badly was in shock. Barrel and bolt the rest is psychology, DD, Armalight, and the ultimate in hypnotic comtrol Knights could sell snow to
The devil. Oh amd of course the Le colt for your trunk a $300 shitbox stupid depts paid $1200
Plus. Anyway any 556 at $400
Or $3000 will all give the same mediocre results. 200 yard gun 400 with human target and A good 18” match and 77gr maybe 600. Here 7.5
Aac $399, and 11.5 PSA $289. At 50’ as
The break in at the emd of the hall will a $1000 kill them faster. Less is always more.
 

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Hey our owners are so lost in the ether, with a good barrel I don’t give a shit what mil spec parts you use if I line 10 different guns up I can figure the same it would be one bit a fucking difference the funniest thing is most all of you Think price equals quality except when it comes to the coat hanger manufacturer design Glock, That’s the greatest goal in the world that my Asian KP7 squeeze Cocker that brings seven grand in average shape used as inferior fucking NYPD syndrome quality isn’t assembly name means jack shit, and of course if you can’t see it doesn’t matter anyway I saw it next to a guy with a $12,000 accuracy international he couldn’t hit shit but I did with my $1200 LR308 there is no standard unless it’s handmade by a very very accomplished machinist mil spec is mil spec
Just painful to decipher...
 
Anyone ever consider that the Gov price on an M4 is low because they buy millions of them, not because they’re the same quality as a $625 Bear Creek Arsenal gun?
 
I’ve had CLE build 2 pistols with 11.5 Bartlien barrels, one upper in 204 Ruger with a KrIeger and re-barrel my 6940 with a Krieger. They do excellent work and all shoot extremely well.
 
colts didn't cost uncle sam 650 but less than 400 per the released docs. fn i think was 385
 
Scarcity, Collectability and Inflation.

It was an iconic and unique design that is unlikely to ever be made again.
Of the P7 series, the M17s in both 9 and and to a greater extent in .40 were limited production even when new.
The standard P7 was made in much larger numbers, but even that commands a significant price these days.

H&K firearms have a fairly robust collector community, especially for out of production models.

Then you have to factor in inflation.
I remember when excellent condition Soviet SKS rifles were all over the gun shows for $80 or less by the crateload.
Today a good condition one would probably fetch north of $700
But it's not just firearms, back at that same time gasoline was in the $0.69 / gallon range as compared to knocking on the door of $5.00 today.

As money steadily becomes worth less, many other things with scarcity and a large community of collectors start to rise in value as people use them as a store of wealth.

Here is what the Nills Grips look like:

View attachment 7885065
View attachment 7885066
I used to play a game and hand it unloaded to fellow cops i had the only one out of 2500, of the ultimate 250 people that took the challenge only one was able to figure how to get a live trigger before i snatched it away. I alway called it the ghetto killer because even after the embarrassment of a cop that couldn’t work it, no criminal could even fathom how to
Use it. Its onky pitfall was 9mm the worlds most ueseless roound of all time, 38 super is the ultimate mix of match accuracy and when properly hot loaded hits like a 357. Or the most expensive amd unavailable 308 the 7.62 AR
 
I used to play a game and hand it unloaded to fellow cops i had the only one out of 2500, of the ultimate 250 people that took the challenge only one was able to figure how to get a live trigger before i snatched it away. I alway called it the ghetto killer because even after the embarrassment of a cop that couldn’t work it, no criminal could even fathom how to

That was an added bonus to the design feature of that pistol and similar to one of the reasons I like a manual safety on a pistol. A gangbanger used to glocks may take a few moments to figure out how to turn off the safety and that may be enough time for you to get the gun from them.

Use it. Its onky pitfall was 9mm the worlds most ueseless roound of all time, 38 super is the ultimate mix of match accuracy and when properly hot loaded hits like a 357. Or the most expensive amd unavailable 308 the 7.62 AR

Just as a note, there was some of the P7 pistols made in more potent .40 S&W but they command a huge price premium.

As to your comment about 9mm I would have to disagree on that.
The original European spec 9mm was and still is a pretty capable cartridge.
There is a fair difference between that and the much lighter, much softer shooting American target ammo that so many people think of when they think about 9mm.

In addition, in the USA due to lots of cheap guns being made like crap, ammo manufacturers for many years, tended to play things a lot more carefully so nobody sued them when their hunk of junk blew up. As compared to in Europe where anybody legally shooting a pistol would have to be one that went through the CIP Proof verification that it was capable of handing about 50% higher than normal full pressure loads without blowing up.

.38 super really isn't even in the running, it has a cult following (especially Mexican heritage folks here), but outside of competition in 1911 / 2011 or CZ75 type frames and revolvers, it's pretty much a very niche caliber.

Generally handguns are a compromise and 9mm has pretty much won the market for military / law enforcement / civilian SD carry because is is the best all round compromise, especially with modern pressures and bullet design.

If you think 9mm is a useless round, get some of the Underwood Extreme Penetrator ammunition and see what it can do.
(Don't feed your P7 a steady diet of it. I probably wouldn't risk shooting it out of the P7 at all. Something like a USP 9mm full size or a full sized P30 can handle limited quantities of it.)

In the USA lots of things were tried by both LE and Civilians searching for the "perfect" semi-auto SD round.
In revolvers, .38 special was eventually superseded by .357 magnum as the perfectly balanced SD round.

In the Semi-auto world, many things were done to try to compensate for the deficiencies of American 9mm ammo at the time, once people wanted to move away from the larger, low capacity, heavier .45 auto pistols.
10mm was the ultimate penetration and win the fight round, but proved to be too much for a large segment of the population to handle, and in addition at the time it was hard to produce pistols that could stand up to a heavy diet of full house rounds.

.40 S&W and the niche, penetration optimized .357 Sig had quite a lot of success, but eventually modern 9mm rounds got good enough and metallurgy and gun design improved so that the cost, recoil and capacity differences (cost being a huge part as was recoil) of .40 S&W didn't make as much sense as the 9mm for a lot of people.

In Semi-Auto, without going to something crazy like special designs and frames for .357 magnum, .44 magnum, .45 auto mag, .50 AE;
You get the niche .45 super and .460 Rowland at the top then go down to 10mm, then to the .40 S&W / .357 Sig, then from there go down to the 9mm, then to the .380 (which is a rather lackluster round).

Accuracy is largely dependent on the guns.
.38 Super is rarely seen in the wild outside of target designed 1911 pistols, which are also capable of being tuned to be very accurate with .40 S&W or 9mm.
 
Not at $35K a pop on their rifles
Not sure where you got that number. The per unit cost of the pistol is below $350 (I know this for a fact). What Sig has done is taken a cradle to grave approach with their bids and combined it with a loss leader. They sell the weapons system at a low price, they get addons for ammo, suppressors, sites, ect. The integration of their bid is appealing. You see it in energy from a company like Haliburton where they will bid in site prep for a well, drilling, fluids, well head valves, comp integration, flow metering, all the way until eventual plugging. It is a good business strategy and explains SIg success with less than best in class offerings.
 
Not sure where you got that number. The per unit cost of the pistol is below $350 (I know this for a fact). What Sig has done is taken a cradle to grave approach with their bids and combined it with a loss leader. They sell the weapons system at a low price, they get addons for ammo, suppressors, sites, ect. The integration of their bid is appealing. You see it in energy from a company like Haliburton where they will bid in site prep for a well, drilling, fluids, well head valves, comp integration, flow metering, all the way until eventual plugging. It is a good business strategy and explains SIg success with less than best in class offerings.
Which part of "RIFLE" did you miss?

Contract divided by number of rifles gave the figure.
 
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.40 S&W and the niche, penetration optimized .357 Sig had quite a lot of success, but eventually modern 9mm rounds got good enough and metallurgy and gun design improved so that the cost, recoil and capacity differences (cost being a huge part as was recoil) of .40 S&W didn't make as much sense as the 9mm for a lot of people.

I got rid of all my 40SW for that reason. Plus I hated how snappy it was vs shooting a 9mm or a 45.
 
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Who would win an internet debate? @acudaowner or @ebbiv? It would be a tough read no doubt. Good stuff though.

Funny guy, since you’re all so smart, how many minutes do you estimate it would take after opening a photo or clicking on a link you’ve been sent by someone and turn your phone or computer into a paperweight?
 
Use the shit you got. You should have bought it with the intention of "this is the most I can afford at the time, to defend my life with".

What ever is a factory assembled rifle with good qc or a great warranty, I would think is best.

Radian, Geissele, Bcm, Colt, Aero, KAC, there are tons that are proven. Buy the best researched one in your budget bracket.
Shoot it until it proves unworthy, fix or upgrade as budget allows.
Ah yes the warranty. When you get in a shtf situation and something breaks that's exactly what you'll think of. At least it's under warranty. 🤣
 
Ah yes the warranty. When you get in a shtf situation and something breaks that's exactly what you'll think of. At least it's under warranty. 🤣

2 is 1 and 1 is none.
Have some spares.

You can spend endless hours agonizing over the best, most reliable rifle ever and spend tons of money to get the absolute bestest, most perfectest rifle and optic and all setup to carry you through that mythical end of the world situation.

Then one poorly manufactured round and you now have a pile of parts with some assembly and more parts required.
 
2 is 1 and 1 is none.
Have some spares.

You can spend endless hours agonizing over the best, most reliable rifle ever and spend tons of money to get the absolute bestest, most perfectest rifle and optic and all setup to carry you through that mythical end of the world situation.

Then one poorly manufactured round and you now have a pile of parts with some assembly and more parts required.
Completely agree. 2 is 1, and 1 is none. I just bought a few extra BCGs and a field repair kit as well. Cause if one of the two goes down then 1 is none again.
 
Completely agree. 2 is 1, and 1 is none. I just bought a few extra BCGs and a field repair kit as well. Cause if one of the two goes down then 1 is none again.
the full quote definitely applies: “two is one, one is none, and three is better”
 
Ah yes the warranty. When you get in a shtf situation and something breaks that's exactly what you'll think of. At least it's under warranty. 🤣
More so the good CS for right after you buy it, inspect it and possibly find an issue. I don't expect kac to replace my gun 3 years and 10,000 rounds down the road because of parts wear.
 
Go PSA they are very competitive nowadays, run it like you stole it, have fun, and then you will have garnered a lot of insight on what YOU want out of a rifle, then build it or several to your needs.
 
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Whatever you do, in my opinion, don't get a bolt with a "black nitride finish", or the brand name "Melonite", or "ferritic nitrocarburizing" on the extractor. The heat treat process creates a case-hardened layer, which is great for sliding parts and overall reduction of friction... but on thinner parts where there are bending/torsional forces... this can lead to issues with the extractor claw breaking off if you have an overgassed, or potentially properly gassed rifle.

Pressure coming back moves the bolt back sooner and trying to pull out the casing with higher residual pressure making it stick to the chamber wall. That extra force needed can lead to stress cracks in the 90⁰ machined surfaces of the extractor claw where it grabs the case rim. Once those stress cracks break through the case layer, all bets are off and it only a matter of time until your extractor breaks.

Had it happen on 2 different branded "black nitride" treated extractors a few years back when black nitride was the New Hottness on AR finishes. After some reading about the nitriding process, i believe its an improperly applied metallurgical process to that particular part.

I replaced those extractors with standard Colt extractors with spring/o-ring setups. No problems since.

Just my experience. Sample size: 2 of 2, catastrophic failure rate of 100% within 500 rounds.

Definitely WOULD NOT trust my life to a black nitride treated extractor.
 
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My rifle is so old and made from so many different kinds of parts that I haven't even heard of the names that many of you are dropping. I wish I had the time to shoot it more.

I don't think there is such a thing as a perfectly reliable mechanical object. I think if I was going to buy a $2000 carbine I'd buy two $6-700 spares instead. Say I'm nuts if you want.
 
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"Least expensive AR you’d trust your life to?"​


I know that this doesn't answer your question, but here it is. Whatever passes "my" reliability requirements, regardless of price or brand.

YMMV,
Keith
 
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I figure if my life was in danger, I'd probably be using my dirty Glock 26 or the 18" OAL pump action 20g Mossberg next to my bed. So, whatever $500 will get me or whatever rifle you throw my way when I am being shot at.

That said, I have an LMT SBR that lives in my safe because if I am going to pay $200 to SBR it and $200+$1k on the dedicated can, I may as well go all in on the gun too and get that juicy ambi MARS-L lower. I also paid $1200 for a recurve bow...
 
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Or just get a JP and be done with it

But budget minded, or arming a lot, paper plate of MOA, PSA and a cheap vortex LVPO will do the job just as well as anything.
 
My 5.56 was the cheapest rifle on the shelf when I bought it around 10 years ago.

Only ever had 2 hiccups with it... Both were FTF... One was cheap crappy ammo. The other was a cheap crappy magazine where the follower jammed and didn't pop the next round up.

If I feed it decent ammo and use average quality magazines, it will run like a sewing machine.

It suffers from Mil-Spec accuracy with military ammo... And it wanders a bit as the barrel heats up. But if I feed it handloads it is very accurate.

I hope I never end up in a firefight with it. But if the boys in powder blue helmets show up, I'll use it.

Mike
 
Was talking guns with one of my sub contractors today. He was talking about “battle rifles” he’d trust his life to. He named a few of the typical upper echelon rifles like Knight’s, LMT, hodge, Radian (pretty sure he just googled “best AR”) etc… I get only wanting the absolute best, we all want the best but dropping $2,500-3,000 isn't in the cards for some people. My Brother in Law for example has been wanting an AR that won’t break the bank for his go bag/shtf rifle.

At this point he’s said he’s better off spending $1,000 bucks on a rifle and buying a bunch of ammo to go train with. (I agree 100% with that, a $3k rifle is only as good as the guy running it)

I don’t have a ton of experience with semi autos so I figured I’d ask here. Any body have recommendations for stuff in the $1000-$1200 range? Is that a realistic budget to get a decent rifle in today’s world?
I have a few PSA builds that work and work well, but I’m not sure I’d want to run them as a shtf gun. I liked my BCM but I sold it to fund another project before I could really put a ton of rounds through it. Like I said earlier I’m not real into semi auto’s so I dont know where to start with a recommendation.

The AR scene is such a gimmick, and to me, they're the ultimate bling gun, every tom dick and harry has a 16" essentially useless weapon other than to suck money out of the pockets of the clueless. My neighbor ran out and bought the asinine Daniel Defence DD4 RIII, for $2300 and change then added all kinds of fancy grips, an overpriced red dot, iron sights, and other assorted crap. total raping he got is $3000 plus. I took a CORE15 lower someone gave me for free, added a match drop in trigger, then built an upper with a 24" 224 valkyrie Bull Barrel, with std mil-spec buffer/spring, non adjustable gas block, and a Magpul PRS Stock. and topped it off with a Vortex Viper PSTII 5.25x50 scope, and i'm all in for $1300. The gun shoots flawlessly and at the days end what does $3000 give you other than an
name? Its too short for any range, and too big for the home, so why do so many buy this crap.
I love to spend money don't get me wrong but paying crazy money for a name is just plain stupid. If you spend more than $600 for an off the shelf carbine you're insane, and everyone has an opinion, but unless some can explain what that DD does that my hand built version can't then i stand by my position. By the way with a family member thats a metalurgist and a professional machinist. when you're milling stuff on equipment that $500,000 and above, a mil-spec upper/lower is a mil-specc upper/lower. just because knight has their mame engraved in no way offers a higher quality than the no name pieces milled by my nephew.
Jut like my buddy who pays $17 a quart for Harley oil because he thinks they make it themselves and is supperior to the $23 a gallon Shell Rotella I buy. lol
 
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My main is an Armalite with a Faxon barrel and failzero BCG, but I've beat the shit out of a PSA rifle, over the course of the year i was teaching once a month I maintained it like one of those AKs African poachers get caught with and it still ran and ran. I've seen rifles worth 2k that wouldn't run for shit, and I've seen poverty ponies that shit the bed too. I've seen some ARs ran so hard and high mileage they were looser than your sister after a normal weekend.

I have nothing more to add, just wanted to make sure I got that sister comment in there😉
 
My rifle is so old and made from so many different kinds of parts that I haven't even heard of the names that many of you are dropping. I wish I had the time to shoot it more.

I don't think there is such a thing as a perfectly reliable mechanical object. I think if I was going to buy a $2000 carbine I'd buy two $6-700 spares instead. Say I'm nuts if you want.
I bought an inexpensive Smith & Wesson MP15, and was so delighted with it I "bought one for my wife". Seriously need to get her versed on it for backup when SHTF.

Put a fair number of rounds through them and as long as I clean them once in a blue moon, they are remarkably dependable. Shoot good out to 400-500 yards with a Vortex BDC on mine, Vortex red-dot for her.

Shoot both Russian and reloads, don't quantify the results, it's all good!

Keep your powder dry, Brandon (I don't need no steenking Constitution) is on the move.
 
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Was talking guns with one of my sub contractors today. He was talking about “battle rifles” he’d trust his life to. He named a few of the typical upper echelon rifles like Knight’s, LMT, hodge, Radian (pretty sure he just googled “best AR”) etc… I get only wanting the absolute best, we all want the best but dropping $2,500-3,000 isn't in the cards for some people. My Brother in Law for example has been wanting an AR that won’t break the bank for his go bag/shtf rifle.

At this point he’s said he’s better off spending $1,000 bucks on a rifle and buying a bunch of ammo to go train with. (I agree 100% with that, a $3k rifle is only as good as the guy running it)

I don’t have a ton of experience with semi autos so I figured I’d ask here. Any body have recommendations for stuff in the $1000-$1200 range? Is that a realistic budget to get a decent rifle in today’s world?
I have a few PSA builds that work and work well, but I’m not sure I’d want to run them as a shtf gun. I liked my BCM but I sold it to fund another project before I could really put a ton of rounds through it. Like I said earlier I’m not real into semi auto’s so I dont know where to start with a recommendation.
Pws “Pro” series is around $1200
 
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From my experience:

Palmetto State Armory (PSA) - $450 - great starter gun to learn on
Aero Precision M4E1 (AP)- $950 best bang for your buck under $1k, great quality for the price
Larue Complete Upper - $1,200 - I only have 100 rounds through it and I thought it was okay
Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) - $1,400 - Quality rifle to trust your life on
Geisssele Super Duty - $1,600 - Quality rifle to trust your life on but slightly better than BCM. Just slightly.
Radian Model 1 - Quality Gucci build at its best - $3,000

To be honest, I'd say Aero Precision, Bravo Company, and Geissele get my vote for best quality at an affordable price. I think the Aero and the Bravo Company are the best value obviously, and you can trust your life on all three of these guns.

Just buy a lower first, even a complete lower if you don't want to build one from scratch, from between $150 (from PSA), $350 Aero, to $400 from BCM, and then save up money for your complete upper, and a BCG (if it doesn't come with one).