- Thread starter Steel head
- Start date
I think the most important part is where he says to test it. Blindly setting a 1:1 on your throat erosion without testing is what a lot of people do.
And his theory is, if you have to test it anyway, why bother with the measuring?
Also, for anyone interested, he’s the Team Captain for Team Lapua/Berger/Borden/Brux. And he finds his powder charge weight with a chrono without even shooting at a target.
And his theory is, if you have to test it anyway, why bother with the measuring?
Also, for anyone interested, he’s the Team Captain for Team Lapua/Berger/Borden/Brux. And he finds his powder charge weight with a chrono without even shooting at a target.
Simple and efficient!
I haven’t watched the vid yet, but Eric’s shirt is gold!
Let’s ask the real experts!According to many, it wrong and doesn’t work.
Super bipod’s buddy’s
According to many, it wrong and doesn’t work.
Bet the same people saying that can’t shoot a match cuz they’re “still working on their load development” too.
So his position is you’re not chasing the lands because no one can define where the lands are. You are therefore chasing the node because the node moves as the lands erode. Potato, potato... And Litz has said that with his Hybrid you can set it and forget it because the hybrid ogjive will forgive the lands for moving away.
I plan on testing this concept out with my new 6mm barrel.
I see it as this.
Find a node Safely off the lands don’t change it unless it proves it should changed.
Where the lands are never matters except when finding that initial safe starting point.
Not completely.
He’s also asserting that at times the node doesn’t move with erosion. Which is another reason he doesn’t measure.
And these guys (team) are running hybrids. Sometimes they move them, sometimes they don’t. Regardless of what Litz designed them to do (not a knock on him).
Exactly.
Litz wasn’t wrong and erosion doesn’t dictate seating position.
I don’t like his seating philosophy. He is seating his bullets on the edge of the node. He is assuming all of the bullets in the box are identical and will seat the same. Sometimes they don’t.
Seating in the middle of the node is better.
Seating in the middle of the node is better.
Ogives and meplats have a fair amount of variance. Just like finding an ocw node that has some forgiveness for pressure variance, you should strive for the same with seating depth to account for that inconsistancy. If all things were perfect we would all be one hole shooters all the time.
But how much difference is there from the spot where the seating die touches and the ogive?
I have a custom reamed comparator that doesn’t vary like the aluminum ones can and without sorting I never see more than a few thou spread.
Usually it’s less than two thou.
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Thats why you have to sort everything! 
Thats why you have to sort everything!
They rarely sort berger. If they do, it’s 5 at a time for weight and if something is up with the weight, they check those 5.
I believe they are tipping/trimming them though.
They also don’t sort brass or mess with primer pockets.
I don’t sort Berger’s at all.
Or brass and certainly not primers.
Results at 1.5 and 1.7 miles has shown me it’s not needed.
Diminishing returns and all. But sorting feeds my ocd. I’ll bin brass and bullets by weight. For a batch of loads, bullets get sorted by length. Pretty sure it makes no appreciable difference for my abilities, I’d like to think in theory the loads would string vertically in a uniform/predictable manner.
As far as uniforming pockets, quality headstamped brass doesn’t need it in the first place.
As far as uniforming pockets, quality headstamped brass doesn’t need it in the first place.
I’m trying, its one of those ‘have all the money and no time’ or ‘all the time and no money’ dillemmas.
260 currently has 2300 on it. Groups opened up considerably in the last 200 rounds. Went from .25” to over 1”. Figured I’d play with seating depth before I binned the barrel. Got it back under .5” by chasing .012
What is your current process? Do you set a length at the beginning and leave it, measure and maintain the same jump as your throat erodes. Or test length a little longer when it stops shooting really well, and cleaning doesn't bring it back?
In watching the second video he isn't saying set it and forget it. Periodically he will load up a set at the next increment of .003" depth and see if shoots.
To me it makes sense seeing as I initially find jam anyway because that Hornady OAL gage is trash.
Got to keep in mind he is running .003" increments. Most people run a .005". This lends credence to the front of the node idea since he has 5 data points to the typical 3. At .005" you would be approaching the node, in the node, leaving the node. Whereas .003" is approaching, good, good, good, leaving.
IDK but it makes sense to me.
To me it makes sense seeing as I initially find jam anyway because that Hornady OAL gage is trash.
Got to keep in mind he is running .003" increments. Most people run a .005". This lends credence to the front of the node idea since he has 5 data points to the typical 3. At .005" you would be approaching the node, in the node, leaving the node. Whereas .003" is approaching, good, good, good, leaving.
IDK but it makes sense to me.
Also worth noting, these guys never wait for a rifle to start acting up or not shooting.
They will clean the barrel almost spotless between matches and run the seating depth test.
1,000yd F class is extremely competitive. You can get away with a lot more when shooting PRS or steel.
They will clean the barrel almost spotless between matches and run the seating depth test.
1,000yd F class is extremely competitive. You can get away with a lot more when shooting PRS or steel.
I have been told that the ogive is the ogive is the ogive and to quit measuring to base or tip and shoot the f-ing things.
I had gotten some bullets that the oal and bto were eratic and asked advice and was told your seating from ogive don't frett it.
I am now enjoying an ar bulk load that is moa and fixing to do seating test in .003 incraments from the book oal.
With an acceptable powder charge I will now tweek it 003 at a time and see and since Im .050 short of mag lenght go that direction instead.
I think he is right it's barrel harmonics over jump in that order.
Will see soon.
I had gotten some bullets that the oal and bto were eratic and asked advice and was told your seating from ogive don't frett it.
I am now enjoying an ar bulk load that is moa and fixing to do seating test in .003 incraments from the book oal.
With an acceptable powder charge I will now tweek it 003 at a time and see and since Im .050 short of mag lenght go that direction instead.
I think he is right it's barrel harmonics over jump in that order.
Will see soon.
I’ve been very sloppy about it in my .260 and use almost set it and forget it using 136 gr Scenar Ls. They have been extremely jump tolerant. Over the course of a barrel, I have only typically had to adjust bullet seating depth once or twice just to tweak it back.
I've just started to break in a 6 BR and think I will try this method with it.
His first video made me laugh... about the guys shooting mag length with good groups. Yea, thats me. I set up at mag length and don't worry about it unless I'm hitting the lands
I run his tuners and for PRS have been lazy. I just find lands, and back up .020. Then I use the tuner to find a tuning node. No seating tests.
Then every 300 rnds or so, I use his method. I test the same BTO, then +.003, .006, .009 and adjust seating if needed.
I would do an initial seating test and then use tuner for other disciplines. But this works fine for steel.
For the bullets I buy today I agree with this.
The one exception is if or when I get a pressure dump or velocity loss at 3/4 of barrel life, I will measure and most likely adjust seat depth at the same time I add more powder.
I cannot listen to even 20 seconds of this guy, no clue what he said.
On a new chamber, almost all bullets have a magical seat depth if one takes the time to find. And IME, the seat depth for a bullet transfers from barrel to barrel.
Example: 6mm 105 Hybrid may like .010" off, it will be extremely close on any new chamber.
But that’s assuming the same barrel length and chamber dimensions, right?
If this was for me, I say not really, freebore is freebore, position remains the same IME. Regardless of chamber dimensions, it is still bullet to lands.
I also feel velocity has little to do with it also
The point of it is, im not going to loqd to the point of not being able to feed from a mag. Its going to feed from a mag, or ill find a bullet that does. Never had a SMK that wouldn't shoot well even when you're jumping in like Michael Jordan nutsmacking someone on a dunk from the 3 point line
Most any modern bullet will have several seating nodes. If you tested them from .005 off all the way to .200 off, you’d find 3 or more nodes where they shoot well.
Which is why he’s not concerned with mag length in the video. Start there and move back.
Seems we are relearning what Weatherby advocated in the 1950's and the Swedes did in the 1890's with longer jumps.
But he does explain it well. Keeps it dummy proof. I love the KISS method
Ok, thanks for that, I guess somehow I took what you were implying wrong. For me, being I usually run close to the lands, other than an AR 223, I would probably rebarrel before I settled on mag length, and get the freebore I wanted.
"would probably rebarrel before I settled on mag length, and get the freebore I wanted."
I don't think rebarrel is going to effect a set mag lenght.
Changing magazines or bottom metal would be all I can think of to do that.
Seems like some bullet manufacturers only test in big box guns or a single feed test sled for thier all to precious bc numbers.
And the better manufacturers take into account firearms and magazines actually used in thier tests.
I don't think rebarrel is going to effect a set mag lenght.
Changing magazines or bottom metal would be all I can think of to do that.
Seems like some bullet manufacturers only test in big box guns or a single feed test sled for thier all to precious bc numbers.
And the better manufacturers take into account firearms and magazines actually used in thier tests.
Of coarse it will not affect mag length, rebarreling to a lesser freebore would allow one to run close to the lands and still be under mag length. As bullets become longer and longer, on some cases, going to longer action may be the only answer.
The only SA case that I was right at mag length on was a 6.5 SLR, I hated the chambering and it did not stick around long.
Defiance makes that medium action today, getting some support in stocks and magazines. Be an option, but I agree with you, screw it.
Running a SA chambering in a long action gives you more leg room in a box mag for a longer bullet and OAL. Think my next build will be a long action chambering in a lapua mag sized action.
Lone Peak makes a med action as well. Just used it in my 6.5PRC to make sure I had the room for the heavier 156 EOL's.
Awesome action by the way.
Awesome action by the way.
At last count, there were 12 pages of discussion over at Accurate Shooter on this subject with Erik posting and responding. Interesting read. The man knows how to open a can of worms. I love his shirt in the video, as I don't neck size either.
