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Fieldcraft Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Excellent! Thank you for the information and taking the time to write it up- GREAT JOB ON ALL COUNTS!

david
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Desert Frog, great write-up and thanks for sharing. Looks like you and your son had fun.

Regards

Mark
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Excuse me, but am I the only one here that is kinda like... WTF?

Yeah, the .22lr can kill, and yes, you can hit targets at distances greater than 50 yards, and yes, a small bullet moving very fast has good penetration, but how does this prove lethality?

I wouldn't recommend the .22lr for anything but squirrels, birds, etc. Why, because lethality is NOT one of it's strong points.

Sure, hit anything in the brain with a .22lr, and you'll kill it, but the brain is usually protected by this wonderfully hard thing called the skull. There have been many documented cases where a person was shot by a .22r in the head, only to be saved when the skull redirected the bullet around or away from the brain.

Ditto with the protective bones around heart and lungs. Further, shoot a yote, or larger animal with a .22lr in it's vitals, and it's likely to run very far away, to die an unnecessarily prolonged death. Now, I'm not a bleeding heart, but I think it's proper to use a bullet suited for your purpose, rather than try to turn a mouse into a lion.

Bottom line is, penetration does NOT equal lethality, not even close. What we don't need is to mislead some less experienced shooters, even if that's not the intention.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Tango,

I used the English dictionary definition of <span style="font-weight: bold">Lethal </span>as:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Capable of causing death. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">CAPABLE: </span>
- Having capacity or ability
- Having the ability required for a specific task or accomplishment
-Permitting an action to be performed

<span style="font-weight: bold">LETHALITY</span> does not mean <span style="font-weight: bold">IT WILL KILL </span> everytime but that it is <span style="font-weight: bold">CAPABLE OF</span> doing so.

A Hammer can be VERY lethal as well. Heck, my cat is too now after I spent a whole afternoon a year ago in emergency for an infected bite.

Just explaining the definition because there was some confusion on another board as to the actual definition and it went into a spin about actual death, self-defense, etc... which isn't what this is all about.

As I said earlier, my interest was mostly a test on penetration, layers of clothing, long distance, etc... I actually didn't know that the 22LR would do that at that distance (penetrate a whole Turkey and 9 layers of clothing at 250 or 300 yards). And, per the comments of several medics on other boards, there is a definite link between penetration and lethality <span style="font-weight: bold">(Definition above)</span> but if you don't think so, well it's completely OK. Personaly, I would tend to agree with them based on their experience. They deal with this stuff quite often and quite a few (Police Officers included) pointed out that they've seen more death occuring with the 22 then most other calibers but I don't have access to actual statistics/facts so I don't know if it's correct.

I think it is very obvious to people on this board that shooting a live thing at that distance would not make a lot of sense, this was not a test about that, or the potential of the 22LR as a self defense round or if lethality is a <span style="font-weight: bold">strong</span> point for the 22LR. Compared to large calibers (like the 308) the 22 DOES NOT have a strong lethality but that wasn't was the test was all about. Factually if you're an LE or Military, from a tactical point of view, a bone, wallet, coins, belt buckle, etc... or as you pointed out, a skull, would stop a bullet at that distance.

I was simply wondering if the 22LR was still lethal (CAPABLE of causing death) at long range and up to where. I just did the test because I could not find the answers so I did my own test and took my OWN opinion/conclusions based on what I did. I think and believe from my own observation that, per the definition above, the 22LR is still very much lethal at that range. Many people were surprised by the results and so was I.

But, hey, if you think it's not the case, it's completely OK with me
wink.gif
- I would not have give a poop if the round did not penetrate 9 layers of clothing at 50 yards. I'm not on a crusade to prove anything to anyone or make any recommendations about the 22LR

Just posted the photos, AAR because I think people would be interested to see what happens (and they were).

It's really not very controversial, mostly factual in a Mythbuster sort of way
smile.gif
Someone else doing the same test in different conditions may get different results.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Good job DesertFrog! That was a real eye opener! WOW! All that penetration at 250yds and 300yds.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

That was a damn good test. I'll take quantified results over speculation every time.

Seeing these results gives me a greater respect for the 22LR, or anyone so armed. I wouldn't want to take even one of those hits.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Very, very well done!

Thank you, and yeah, tests like that put the .22LR back into perspective as a lethal round CAPABLE of killing at ranges greater than we normally consider.

Having made my longest .22LR kill last year (146 yards, lasered post-mortem, 8ish lbs. groundhog), and it was through-and-through the skull, I am a big fan of the little LR. IMHO, it is the greatst round ever devised.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Nicely done. Time for my new .22 ultimate to stretch its legs.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Excellent test and very well done. I wouldn't worry about the dissent, there's always someone that doesn't get the word.

This is nothing... DF posted same thread on rimfire central... and it went downhill fast.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

I've decisively killed many rabbits with a 5mm Sheridan air rifle pushing a pellet of about 12 grains at 700 or so fps, for a whopping 13 ft-lbs of energy.

In comparison, at 300 yards, a 40gr 22LR bullet started at 1240 fps will retain about 838 fps and 62 ft-lbs of energy.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Great...

Now I have to go and buy a new scope and 15 MOA rail for my 10/22 trainer...
grin.gif


Awesome write-up!!!

I've been a .22 fan / collector since I was 12.
They sure are addicting.

Thanks for taking the time to do all the testing as well as prepare such a comprehensive report.

Cheers,
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Indeed a great fact eye opener...well done DF !
I hope someone gets use out of this for safety's sake if anything else ?
I have seen lots of folks give a gun to their kids and turn them loose in the brush thinking > Hey it's just a .22 , not much bigger than a BB Gun ....what harm in that ?

Maybe somebody will actually learn alot from this and prevent their kids or someone else's from an accident !
I'm not saying don't give them a .22 , just tell and show them the full potential of the round .
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Great read! Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures and pull together the posting. Very eye opening, very straight forward.

Thanks, BSR
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Ty made a great point there a ways back. In his opinion as a medical professional he believes that more fatal GSW's are caused as a result of a .22lr.. I absolutely love my 2 . I got the Ruger Mk111 pistol and I swear to god its one of the most frighteningly accurate little pistols I have ever shot. When I go for a walk along the canal where I live I generally carry this in my pocket... I have been known to take the odd duck with it as well. My Brno. What can I say. I love that rifle. I taught my son to shoot on it and on my my life at 135 yards my son put 5 shots inot the diameter of a 10 cent coin.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Just off the news today ..... you can look it up ,I aint putting on all the details !
(Patsy X. XXXXXX , 34, of Deep Water, was pronounced dead early Saturday evening after being shot in the chest with a .22-caliber handgun.)


Her husband was boring holes( shooting ) thru his roof with a .22 pistol to install a satellite dish
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

desert frog,was the ammo you used sub sonic and if so is it very quiet.i have tinnitus from shooting and am looking for a quiet ammo, yet one that could be used for small game.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Yep, subsonic - 1050 fps

It's somewhat quiet. In California, we can't have silencer. With a silencer, I would imagine it would be VERY quiet but can't actually test that.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

great write up dude i honestly didnt think you could shoot that far with a 22 but hey im listening
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Sorry to throw out another story...but this one I believe since I saw the evidence myself.

There is an instructor at Front Sight (met the man myself but forgot his name since this was many years ago) who was shot from 10 feet away in the forehead with a .22lr round while serving as a police officer. The round did not penetrate his skull, just when straight up his forehead over a portion of the top of his head and then flew out the back. Left a nasty scar…a small oddly shaped mark where the hole was and a weird line right up into his hairline.

The funny part of the story is that he did not realize he was shot. He was able to charge the suspect who was in shock that he shot the cop but that the cop just got pissed off and charged him, tackled him, punched him a few times (hey he thought the guy shot at him but missed, only he didn’t miss) then rolled him over, cuffed him and then tossed him in the back of his patrol car. Only when another officer asked about the blood did he realize he was even shot…or so the story goes.

The problem with the .22lr in a tactical situation is that thick bone can either stop it, or deflect it, while a more powerful round will pass right through that bone without question.

If my rear is on the line, I would not risk it with .22lr. In the field, with your nerves kicking in, the chances of making that perfect ocular cavity shot are seriously diminished. I would rather have a more forgiving round. I can see where if noise suppression was the primary concern and you had a silenced .22lr and your backup had a silenced 9mm or even .45 then maybe it might make sense. But alone, in the field, give me a .40S&W handgun, a .5.56mm M4 Carbine and/or a .308 sniper rifle, or better yet a .50BMG from a half a mile away any day!

The bigger the better, and distance is your friend!
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Desert Frog, Great job! Very interesting post, excellent information. Thanks for sharing.

Regards.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hit2hurt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry to throw out another story...but this one I believe since I saw the evidence myself.

There is an instructor at Front Sight (met the man myself but forgot his name since this was many years ago) who was shot from 10 feet away in the forehead with a .22lr round while serving as a police officer. The round did not penetrate his skull, just when straight up his forehead over a portion of the top of his head and then flew out the back. Left a nasty scar…a small oddly shaped mark where the hole was and a weird line right up into his hairline.

The funny part of the story is that he did not realize he was shot. He was able to charge the suspect who was in shock that he shot the cop but that the cop just got pissed off and charged him, tackled him, punched him a few times (hey he thought the guy shot at him but missed, only he didn’t miss) then rolled him over, cuffed him and then tossed him in the back of his patrol car. Only when another officer asked about the blood did he realize he was even shot…or so the story goes.

The problem with the .22lr in a tactical situation is that thick bone can either stop it, or deflect it, while a more powerful round will pass right through that bone without question.

If my rear is on the line, I would not risk it with .22lr. In the field, with your nerves kicking in, the chances of making that perfect ocular cavity shot are seriously diminished. I would rather have a more forgiving round. I can see where if noise suppression was the primary concern and you had a silenced .22lr and your backup had a silenced 9mm or even .45 then maybe it might make sense. But alone, in the field, give me a .40S&W handgun, a .5.56mm M4 Carbine and/or a .308 sniper rifle, or better yet a .50BMG from a half a mile away any day!

The bigger the better, and distance is your friend!
</div></div>

When I was in high school we had an 'inspirational speaker' come talk to us. He had been high one night, and decided to end his life. He stuck a .45 to the side of his head and pulled the trigger. Again the bullet did not penetrate the skull, instead skirting around the skull under the skin. He basically ended up half-scalping himself. He had the scars to prove it. I guess he was just hard headed....
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Hit it in the right spot and it will die. 22LR has killed a Grizzy...or so the legend goes...right in the eye.

I course I wouldn't want to be the one to test that legend. Heay...what are those schelps at Mythbusters doing
smile.gif
?

RHINOUT!
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

If all I had in a moment of desperation was a .22LR, I would pick it up and use it. I would NOT stare at it and wonder if...

Some things are better than other things, and nearly anything is better than nothing.

After this article/thread, I figure the .22LR is MUCHO better than nothing...

Greg
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paulie771</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"minute-of-turkey" </div></div>

Classic! :)
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

..yes, but minute of mouse is oh so much more satisfying. Think of it as mini/micro-sniping. (Minnie Sniping?)

Mouse (<span style="font-style: italic">Mus Mus Domesticus</span>), it's not just for breakfast anymore...
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Interesting article about the IDF and what it found out about the lethality of the .22LR. This article is on ruger1022.com
2iazbjo.jpg

ab5sex.jpg

vgw0m.jpg

9hmhye.jpg


I had to drop the pictures seperate from the text but ya'll will be able to figure out what picture goes with which caption.

This I believe may bring a little clarity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ruger 10/22 Suppressed Sniper Rifle
Sniper Weapons System - from left to right Ruger 10/22 suppressed, IMI Galil Sniper Rifle and a Mauser 86SR.

The Ruger 10/22 is a fully suppressed 0.22 caliber semi auto sniper rifle with a 10 rounds rotary magazine.

In 1987, the Intifada - the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories - broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs.

The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon's mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a "Hush Puppy" weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations.

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it's deployment was cut down dramatically.

Civilian sniper with the Ruger 10/22 sniper rifle (right), Designated Marksman (middle) and a spotter (left) during the Israeli-Palestinian clashes in the Occupied Territories May 2000.
Operator armed with the Ruger 10/22 Suppressed sniper rifle during the Israeli-Palestinian clashes in the Occupied Territories, October 2000.
Same caption as above. Note that the sniper has a Sig Sauer handgun tacked in his vest.

 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

DesertFrog,can you tell me what ring,s you used with your bushnell 3200
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

thanks, i knew that i had read it some where but could,nt remember where. i guess oldtimers is setting in.ive purchased the gun and am buying the scope but just could,nt remember the rings.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

I have quite a bit of experience with shooting .22 lr a great distance. We used standard loaded ammunition and would pick off prairie dogs between 100-200 yards. Most of the kills being from 100-150 yards. Here in west Texas the wind blows, and when you're shooting at prairie dogs, you'll be close but we'd still usually have mutliple shots. Either way it was one heck of a challenge and we had a blast doing it at kids. I have personally killed coyotes with .22 lr between the 75-100 yard mark. As has been stated, it's definately not an ideal round for long distance shooting or self defense; but the round is extremely lethal when it hits the central nervous system.

Oh and for those asking about the bullets expanding. In my experiences, recovered .22 bullets are almost never deformed unless they hit something very hard. When they hit a hard piece of steel and partially pierce it they will flatten out, or after bouncing off of rocks have gouges in them. Usually after passing through an animals skull or remaining in it though, they don't really expand at all. Nice test froggy, and I'm glad it was a surprise for you, it makes things lots of fun.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

I have an extensive experience of 22lr and 22WMG in the field...

I have shot redfox up to 115 yards but with hit body (chest) they have always escaped between 60 and 100 yds... and I don't recomand use of 22 lr on them. on small game (rabbit, duck, pheasant etc) no problem. With 22WMG, it's a different story. I use RWS ammunition because their 40gr Bullet is far more powerful than anyother brands (as fast as 34gr Supreme Winchester Magnum)and I have drop game of 60 pounds up to 150 yds. Moreover, I'm able to hit until 200 yds every targets that I engage with RWS or Winchester 34gr Supreme with a reasonable "hold over" and with a 110 yds zero.

So now, I use my 22LR only for training up to 160yds and my 22WMG for hunting & varminting. (For 22lr I'm very fond on 40gr CCI Velocitor and old CCI Silhouette).

have a good day.





 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

the 22LR does have a tactical use for removing lights for covert ops at night, guard dogs, cameras, alarms, etc.....its quiet, compact, and precise!!! Snipers/Marksman aren't always used for killing/assasinating a person....objects are main targets in many situations, from a tactical stand point....great post!!
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hit2hurt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem with the .22lr in a tactical situation is that thick bone can either stop it, or deflect it, while a more powerful round will pass right through that bone without question.
</div></div>

My observations as a street medic corroborate this supposition. The effects of a central hit with .22 rimfire vary greatly... One shot will pass through with minimal trauma, the next might bisect every critical organ in the thorax as it richochets all around.

Emergencynurse is likely correct regarding the most lethal caliber...this has more to do with it's relative availability to street thugs vs it's overwhelming lethality.

DF - nice field study, thanks for doing it.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

If I can, I'll pick up a bargin beef/pork roast or 2 and see what happens at distance. (assuming I can hit it). The roast will be thawed and I'll measure it's thickness. Will report back



 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shiraz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I can, I'll pick up a bargin beef/pork roast or 2 and see what happens at distance. (assuming I can hit it). The roast will be thawed and I'll measure it's thickness. Will report back </div></div>

That would be very cool. Based on the "Turkey Test" I'm very confident that it would penetrate clothing (if you use some) to at least 300 yards. I tend to believe you would have at least 3 inches of penetration at 250-300 yards distance (+ penetration of the 3 clothing layers) but it's just my opinion...testing would be factual - that's the fun of it.

Heck we may even have some surprising results (good or bad)
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

I live in central WA. I have killed many coyotes and ferel dogs with a 22lr anywhere from 25-200 yrds and only had 3 run off. Bullet placement is everything. Also I beleive that if you plan on useing a 22 for defense be it short or long range, know your anatomy. Soft body targets with lots of veins and arteries work great.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

I've shot countless ferel dogs in my lifetime, and watched my grandfather do it before I could at distances around 35 to 75 yards, and have seen deer kills at those distances too, it's all about headshots with a 22, anything else is questionable, but they are deadly.

I joke a lot to people when they comment on 9mm and .223 being ineffective that dead is dead, even if it was a 22.

But DF did a great job and I thank him for taking the time, I like the heck out of 22s and this surprised me too.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Every one should own at least 1 22lr,You can learn alot about rifle shooting with it for a little bit of $.And it is a killing little round.
 
Re: Lethality of the 22LR- Results!

Personally I love the .22lr for basic rifle marksmanship. It is an excellent training device and it is a lot of fun to shoot. The rifle is inexpensive and you can literally shoot the round all day without putting a dent in your budget. From a tactical standpoint, there are several suppressor manufacturers who offer units that provide 34-44db dry/wet reduction. This will move your average .22LR round from the 120 decibel range to the 80 decibel range. The average voice, at average volume, projects at around 85 decibels, making this round exceedingly quiet, especially with the use of subsonic ammunition to eliminate the sonic crack. I don't know of any other round with the capability to drop into the 70-80 decibel range fully supressed. As another poster mentioned, it can be a great aid in destroying objects, animals, and even people with well placed rounds. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in since the supressed aspect hadn't really been covered. I personally love the Walther P22, with it's threaded barrel nut that can be interchanged for a threaded lug, or a reverse lug that is set for say, a coke bottle. ; )

AUG_2223a.jpg
 
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