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Lets be honest..

B

BradleyH

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2013
114
7
Casey, Illinois
I keep reading various threads about why AI's and TRG's are superior firearms when compared to a "custom" 700.

I have somewhat of a understanding as to how the actions differ. Again, somewhat of an idea.

Across various threads I see pictures of AI's and TRG's sitting out in the snow often saying, " In their natural environment". Seeing the actions caked in snow or ice is a pretty good example of why I would believe that they are superior rifles. But what about all things being equal? Because quite frankly, I have no desire to let my rifle sit out in the snow and become a Popsicle.

So all things being equal, performance wise, do you really gain anything with a high end factory rifle?

I apologize if this seems like a duplicate post, I am just having trouble wrapping my head around it.
 
Maybe you should shoot a "high end" rifle. And then decide. As for the snow bullshit... That's military marketing
 
The same could be said for nearly any high end item. Why buy a Ferrari 458 when you can get a Nissan GTR for a third of the price? Why buy a $3K S&B when you can get a Vortex for significantly less? It comes down to actually holding and using those items when it becomes apparent why they are so expensive. As to whether or not the additional price tag is worth it, is up to the individual. Me, personally, I'd take the 458 any day over a Nissan GTR.
 
In my humble opinion and based on my personal experience you go to a custom rifle and a high end scope when you need one or when you have to have one. Will it be twice as good? No not really. I can't get a Ferrari and I can afford a custom made rifle. Since its my hobby and my time is not all my own - I want to make the most of my time and my hobby. Enough comprises made in life and now this is one area where I won't and don't have to.
 
I don't think he's asking about personal preference, I think he's asking about overall gain in performance.
Everyone has their budgets, acceptability of what's on par, and needs... But let's be honest here .... You take a average rifle with average glass.... And I'm willing to bet the higher end rifle will be more accurate and more consistent
 
It's all about what you want, and can afford. I agree with the above posts about comparing high end quality products to middle of the road quality products. Personally I would love to have a brand new S&B, but I simply can't afford it. That's why I have a PST on my rifle. Does it compare to the S&B? No, not at all. The Vortex is great for the money but it is in no way comparable to an S&B or a USO. just my opinion. Same goes with a custom 700 when compared to a GAP or AI or any other high end rifle builder.
 
I believe that a rifle as good or better can be had for less money if you do a build. better is very subjective though. though an AI and a TRG are both nice rifles, neither are perfect for ME. I would go custom all day.
 
I don't think a custom 700 is that much cheaper.
Consider the cost of a base rifle, chassis (or stock with bedding), new barrel, trigger, blueprinting and other "labor".
If you go with a high-end action, which I feel is more comparable to something like a TRG or AI, the price difference is even less, and about equal to a custom rifle from a well respected builder.
Of course custom you can build exactly how you want it, so there is something to say about that.

Now if your asking if going with a high-end factory over a standard 700 with decent stock is worth it, that is a much harder question to answer.
Price is probably about 3x as high, and you can get lucky with a 700 that shoots .25 moa, but with anything high end, you know you'll get an accurate gun.
 
Comparing a custom 700 to a GTR and an AI to a Ferrari is quite silly.

A custom 700 is more like comparing a 1970 Chevelle with a long list of aftermarket parts thrown together hoping for something that comes out well. These parts are chosen because you think they are the parts you want. There may not be another example of this combination in the world. In the end, it may be a good car that is one of the fastest on the road, or it may be an unreliable car that ends up costing you more than you could have bought a "high-end" factory car for.

Meanwhile, the TRG or AI would be like buying a brand new Corvette. Its going to be of known performance, little to anything needs changed to satisfy you, its reliable, and it gets good fuel mileage. A team of engineers designed the car with a specific goal in mind, spent months if not years working on the design and you benefit from being a mass-produced unit with a whole support network behind it.

In reality, a custom 700 is a hunting rifle that ends up costing $3500. An AI AE MK III is a purpose built precision rifle built in a factory with a specific goal in mind. It costs about $3700. With the 700, you may end up with a combination of parts that do not meld well together and doesn't accomplish your goal---unless you go with a "production" custom from somebody like Surgeon, GAP, etc where they churn out several rifles with the same build slip and they know what works. AIs, TRGs, they work out of the box. Both routes can get you a really great rifle. AIs and TRGs are just a whole different league and a better design from the get go.
 
A rifle either shoots or it doesn't, it is that simple. High end rifles just have a far higher likely hood of shooting very well and have a warranty if not. Custom rifles are 99% right before they leave.

To me, a trg or Ai just save you the wait time and you get a custom quality gun.
 
tylerw02 said:
Comparing a custom 700 to a GTR and an AI to a Ferrari is quite silly.

A custom 700 is more like comparing a 1970 Chevelle with a long list of aftermarket parts thrown together hoping for something that comes out well. These parts are chosen because you think they are the parts you want. There may not be another example of this combination in the world. In the end, it may be a good car that is one of the fastest on the road, or it may be an unreliable car that ends up costing you more than you could have bought a "high-end" factory car for.

Meanwhile, the TRG or AI would be like buying a brand new Corvette. Its going to be of known performance, little to anything needs changed to satisfy you, its reliable, and it gets good fuel mileage. A team of engineers designed the car with a specific goal in mind, spent months if not years working on the design and you benefit from being a mass-produced unit with a whole support network behind it.

In reality, a custom 700 is a hunting rifle that ends up costing $3500. An AI AE MK III is a purpose built precision rifle built in a factory with a specific goal in mind. It costs about $3700. With the 700, you may end up with a combination of parts that do not meld well together and doesn't accomplish your goal---unless you go with a "production" custom from somebody like Surgeon, GAP, etc where they churn out several rifles with the same build slip and they know what works. AIs, TRGs, they work out of the box. Both routes can get you a really great rifle. AIs and TRGs are just a whole different league and a better design from the get go.
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What he said.
 
I'm going to go one step further, But first, I want to add;

Cold affects civilian rifles more then military (at this time). I spent 22 years in Alaska, 19 of which was with the Alaska National Guard. Most of our Guard training was in the Winter meaning we dealt with snow and ice.

Then again, I dealt just as much if not more hunting and some trapping, where my personal rifles went through the same conditions, if no more so.

I contend you don't need high price actions to have accurate, reliable, works everywhere actions. I think one of the most accurate actions out there is that from the Army's Model 1903/1903a3.

Before you get all huffy and write me off as being "nutso", think about it.

The Army uses a Mann Accuracy Device to test ammo. They are issued to ammo makers who furnish ammo to the military to assure the ammo meats certain accuracy standards.

These actions have been made for the 30-06, 7.62, 30 Cal Carbine, and 45 ACP. (Never seen one for the 5.56, my 5.56 Mann uses a Remington 700 Action).

The actions the Army used for these accuracy device's are M1903A3 actions. Square the face of the receivers with the internal treads, lap the bolts and this action is as accurate as any out there.

We certainly know they have proved them selves in the full spectrum of environmental conditions, desert, jungles, arctic, and salt water surfs.

There are plenty of these actions out there from people "bubba-ed" the Springfield rifles that can be had and relatively cheap prices. But please don't screw with the ones you find that are still in original condition. They are getting harder and harder to find. Not to mention they are going to be more expensive.

When I built my M1993A4 rifle for CMP GSM Vintage Sniper Matches, I used the SC Receiver (real 'A4s only came with Remington Actions). I squared the face of the receiver, lapped the bolt lugs and it shoots as good as most of my bolt guns, considering it isn't bedded and I used a 1942 2 groove barrel. Even then, taking it out of the stock, and using it in a V blocks (as the Mann is used) it can hold its own.

As a side note, When I did fool around in the Alaska winters, I've found the Winchester Model 70 works better in extreme temps, blowing snow, 'n such, then the Remington 700 Action.
 
tylerw02 said:
Comparing a custom 700 to a GTR and an AI to a Ferrari is quite silly.

A custom 700 is more like comparing a 1970 Chevelle with a long list of aftermarket parts thrown together hoping for something that comes out well. These parts are chosen because you think they are the parts you want. There may not be another example of this combination in the world. In the end, it may be a good car that is one of the fastest on the road, or it may be an unreliable car that ends up costing you more than you could have bought a "high-end" factory car for.

Meanwhile, the TRG or AI would be like buying a brand new Corvette. Its going to be of known performance, little to anything needs changed to satisfy you, its reliable, and it gets good fuel mileage. A team of engineers designed the car with a specific goal in mind, spent months if not years working on the design and you benefit from being a mass-produced unit with a whole support network behind it.

In reality, a custom 700 is a hunting rifle that ends up costing $3500. An AI AE MK III is a purpose built precision rifle built in a factory with a specific goal in mind. It costs about $3700. With the 700, you may end up with a combination of parts that do not meld well together and doesn't accomplish your goal---unless you go with a "production" custom from somebody like Surgeon, GAP, etc where they churn out several rifles with the same build slip and they know what works. AIs, TRGs, they work out of the box. Both routes can get you a really great rifle. AIs and TRGs are just a whole different league and a better design from the get go.
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Tyler, respectfully I would take exception with your Chevelle argument. I have a Rem700-P that we totally rebuilt. I have spent as much as you would for an AI AE MKIII, if they are only $3700.00, but we did not just assemble a bunch of parts. We trued and blue-printed the action, we put a Lilja Match Barrel, in 34" length, a JP Recoil-eliminator, and a custom Chassis on it. That is not just like taking a Chevelle and placing parts on it because I like the parts. There was a lot of research done on it. Basically, the only thing the AI has on it over what I have is whatever action AI uses---I assume they have their own? We did stiffen up the action too. I would hazard a guess that if one were to take an action from an AI, they could probably build an even better custom gun that the AI production run.

As to the OP's original question, many of us cannot shoot as well as the rifles we own are capable of. That being the case, I opted to have my gun built off a Rem-700P action, and I have shot it 0.3MOA @ 300 yds. I am very happy. Are there better rifles out there for $10,000 or $15,000, I am sure there are. Would I use mine enough to warrant that? NO. Would I be able to see the advantages of such an expensive rifle? NO. Can I afford one? NO. That is why I don't drive a Porsche, or even a Mercedes....

And besides, I got the distinct pleasure of being involved in the research and subsequent design of my rifle, in stead of just ordering a pre-made stock item. That, I think, is one reason we do what we do.

Think of Rem-700 builds as being a bit like Craftsman tools versus SnapOn. If I made my living with tools, I would buy some SnapOn tools for my everyday tools. I don't, so I own Craftsman, a lower grade, but reliable tool with a lifetime warranty just like the SnapOn...
 
Take exception if you'd like, but I call them as I see them. I've seen customs turn out awesome. I've also seen them become nothing but headaches because of tolerance stacking, parts not working well with certain calibers, etc, etc. There are guys that can really build an engine, and guys that can't. Same with rifles. The 700 is old technology and is a hunting rifle, just like the Chevelle is an old school street car. Like it or not, you've built a hotrod with your 700. I like hotrods and 700s but I know what they are and their limitations.

What does the AI have over a 700, besides the action? LOL that's funny. Have you ever used one? They come out of the box with the best actions on the planet, wonderful field triggers, a good chassis, the ability to call up and order a barrel and screw it on your action, and a company that builds the rifle specifically. When something isn't right, there are people there that have experience and fix it for you. You call up and order stock parts if you need them. It was engineered as a system rather than a group of individual components. As cool as a custom may be, once you get it, its yours.
 
tylerw02 said:
A custom 700 is more like comparing a 1970 Chevelle with a long list of aftermarket parts thrown together hoping for something that comes out well. These parts are chosen because you think they are the parts you want. There may not be another example of this combination in the world. In the end, it may be a good car that is one of the fastest on the road, or it may be an unreliable car that ends up costing you more than you could have bought a "high-end" factory car for.
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I think a properly built R700 deserves more credit than that. Any fool with an internet connection can see what parts can turn a R700 into a real shooter just from browsing through several websites. If the build becomes something unreliable, it is because the gunsmith is a hack or (much less likely) the barrel is a lemon. The real decision is determining whether the cost of procuring and paying someone to assemble the parts for a custom rifle built around a 700 action is worth it when a full blown custom action build or a factory AI/TRG can be had for just a few hundred dollars more.

It all comes down to your budget and what requirements are needed from the rifle.
 
I think I give them plenty of cred. I have half a dozen of them in my safe. But 700s are hunting rifles and weren't designed for hard use. Ever watched a guy rip a bolt handle off one? They aren't really comparable to a TRG or an AI. They are a great rifle, can be made very accurate, and they have the best aftermarket support of any bolt gun. I like them, but I wouldn't choose them for the money over an AI or TRG.
 
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I'm an AI guy, although I do have a 6.5CM 700 by SAC. Having to do it all over, I should've ordered the AEIII with a .260 or 6.5CM barrel and sold the 700. I did a full on 700 build in the past with a Barlein barrel, etc and AICS, it still wasn't an AI no matter how I tried to make it be one.(nothing wrong with the barrel)
My big thing is labor, thats a lot of the cost in these customs and you just don't get that return if selling it. That and the wait time, I'm not a builder and I know certain things take time--but 1-2 years? I'm going through this with a 45-70 right now, it's getting to the point of what was the point of doing this? It all depends on what you want I guess.

My advice is if you like the AI chassis or the TRG and can afford it--by the actual AI or Sako--a 700 in a chassis will never be an AI
 
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All of this is true, but the fact is that a R700 (or a Savage) can be had for hundreds less and still deliver good results. Dropping a 700 5R into an AI or some other reliable chassis is hard to beat for an entry level system. At the heart of the USMC Sniper Rifle is a R700 action; if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me.
 
As for the car analogies I've heard of here, i think it's better to compare a Japanese ricer (custom 700) to a BMW M3 (high-end factory).
Performance can be the same. The BMW is just ready to go from the factory, and the ricer needs some work. The ricer can be a bit cheaper in total, but not really by much.

One big advantage though is that you could probably afford the base car/gun easily, and can upgrade parts later on when you need better performance.

The ricer will probably be a bit more high-maintenance.
 
tylerw02 said:
Take exception if you'd like, but I call them as I see them. I've seen customs turn out awesome. I've also seen them become nothing but headaches because of tolerance stacking, parts not working well with certain calibers, etc, etc. There are guys that can really build an engine, and guys that can't. Same with rifles. The 700 is old technology and is a hunting rifle, just like the Chevelle is an old school street car. Like it or not, you've built a hotrod with your 700. I like hotrods and 700s but I know what they are and their limitations.

What does the AI have over a 700, besides the action? LOL that's funny.


Actually, I did not say a 700----I said MY 700. I have a fantastic Chassis on mine, I have a Barrel that fits MY needs better than a stock barrel, and my gunsmith builds custom 700's specifically. This is not just any Rem-700 hunting rifle.

Have you ever used one?

No, I haven't had that high honor.

They come out of the box with the best actions on the planet,

This is your opinion, and theirs. BAT thinks their action is the best. Other action makers think theirs is the best. I also never claim that my Rem-700P is better than an AI.

wonderful field triggers,

Several makers make triggers especially for a Rem-700. Thus, a trigger every bit as good as AI's can be found for my Rem-700P. I also have read several sources---which I apologize I can't remember now---which state that the trigger my Rem-700P came with is very nearly on par with some of the Timney and Jewel triggers out there, with a higher reliability factor in bad field conditons---Thus, a decent (not the best) trigger.


a good chassis,

I just told you I have an excellent chassis built for this rifle.

the ability to call up and order a barrel and screw it on your action,

Lilja can make me a new barrel also, and my gunsmith can chamber it. While it is not a stocked item, AI does not stock the barrel I want either.

and a company that builds the rifle specifically. When something isn't right, there are people there that have experience and fix it for you. You call up and order stock parts if you need them. It was engineered as a system rather than a group of individual components. As cool as a custom may be, once you get it, its yours.
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Bottom line, Yes, I essentially built a hot-rod, and it shoots well. It all depends on what a person wants to achieve in their build. Like I said, I don't have a dolled up Chevelle, but a custom build on a very decent Rem-700 Platform.

Yes, you can get an AI for comparable money, but many of the AI's pluses are simply a matter of taste, and my rifle is not made to be compared apples to apples with one. The basic theory is different here, I got what I wanted, and would have had to wait and spend more money if I wanted AI to build what I have also. I supported my local gunsmith, and am happy with the results.
 
LCDR JGB said:
All of this is true, but the fact is that a R700 (or a Savage) can be had for hundreds less and still deliver good results. Dropping a 700 5R into an AI or some other reliable chassis is hard to beat for an entry level system. At the heart of the USMC Sniper Rifle is a R700 action; if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me.
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Is it getting the job done? Of course it is. My stanc eis they are using it because they "always" have been. That's why they still monkey with 1911's, build, rework, rework(fix)
I would say the trigger pullers would get the job done with a stick if they had to. Saying, it's thier skill, etc.
 
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There can be much more to it than what has been mentioned. Sometimes its the journey, not the destination that counts. Someone with a modest machine shop in their garage can get a used R700, learn how to make it better (i.e true the action), learn how to bed it. Pick out their own stock, be it, wood, plastic, or one of the fancier chassis type. And when they are all done, they KNOW how it works, they can take pride it what they did to make it better, to understand the machine. Once you have had success with one project, you then have the ability and confidence for the next project which will be better.

Another issue that is important to me is longevity. A rifle should last a life time and then some. I know that the next generation will be able to find a replacement firing pin, or spring, or bolt handle for an R700. That may not be true for some of these others. Granted, they could be manufactured by a gunsmith, but that's time consuming and expensive.
 
I'm not sure if the OP was asking about custom vs high end or standard factory vs high end, but here's my experience:

I've been shooting bolt action rifles for the past 34 years. I've owned Remingtons, Winchesters and Brownings. Most were box stock, but a few had been tweaked by gunsmiths. None were true customs. For 33 of those 34 years, I was a 1 MOA shooter. I don't mean that I would shoot 1MOA every time, but that was about what I could expect on a good day. Once in a while a .75 would sneak in, but that was as good as it got.

The day I got my TRG22, I fired the first sub .5MOA group of my life. I went on to do that several more times that day with factory ammo. Again, I won't say I can do that every time or "all day long". That would be BS. My point is that after all those years of frustration, chasing different loads, tweaking stocks, trying different scopes and techniques, I found the solution to my problems. Was it expensive? Yes. Was it worth it to me? You bet it was.
 
BradleyH said:
I keep reading various threads about why AI's and TRG's are superior firearms when compared to a "custom" 700.

I have somewhat of a understanding as to how the actions differ. Again, somewhat of an idea.

Across various threads I see pictures of AI's and TRG's sitting out in the snow often saying, " In their natural environment". Seeing the actions caked in snow or ice is a pretty good example of why I would believe that they are superior rifles. But what about all things being equal? Because quite frankly, I have no desire to let my rifle sit out in the snow and become a Popsicle.
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Ok I wrote the above more as a way to set the scene for one particular shoot. Did I intentionally leave the rifle out in during the snow storm? Yep. Did we have a choice? Nope. We were shooting and rifles were not being moved around. Besides, why would I give up a perfectly good opportunity to test out the claims of a manufacturer about an all-weather performance of their weapon?

And for the record during that shoot there was another AI on the line along with custom 700s and a Savage. The Savage threw an ejector. The operator had to manually remove brass the rest of the shoot. He may have been running too hot loads or maybe it was the cold. Or maybe it was both. I don't know. Of the four 700s there, I know that two did get to come off the line. That was so they could be thawed in front of the portable heater because their actions had locked up. The AI and TRG did not have any problems that caused them to go down.

Then again a high end S&B scope leaked and froze. So high end gear is not immune.

Now this is a sample size of one and not controlled. So yes it could be a fluke. But the 700s fared poorly in those conditions.

I started with a Rem 700 PSS and still own that rifle. It has never given me any trouble. I used it for years and shot long range with it all the time. I will probably never sell it. Once I decided I liked doing LR shooting I decided to upgrade. Yet why did I not go custom 700? Two reasons:

1) Purpose built design
2) Economics

The AI and TRG were designed from the ground up to address the problem of reliability and accuracy in all conditions. The 700 was made for cheaper production reasons. The 700 represents a great value and functions well. These are different goals. Next, a custom 700 is, well, custom. If I ever needed parts or there was a problem then it is harder to manage. I can order parts for the AI/TRG and they will fit without issues.

The second point is economics. When I was moving from the 700 I had the option to change stocks, put in detachable box mags, upgrade the rails, swap out barrels, put on a new bolt handle, get a better bipod, etc. But when you add all of that stuff up, or even going with a full blown custom, you are in the price range of the TRG or AIAE. You may even be at the price range of an AI AW.

For instance, the AI/TRG feed reliably. There is no need to mess with various bottom metals. The bolt handles work in cold weather and are easy to grab. No need to put on a large bolt handle after market. The bolts are either fluted already (AI) or designed to work with icy conditions while being smooth (the TRG), there is no need to after-market fluting. The extractors on the AI/TRG work well, there is no need to upgrade them. The triggers on the AI/TRG are excellent and reliable in all conditions. There is no need to swap out different triggers to find one that approaches the feel of the AI/TRG (only to find it fails in the field when it gets too dusty). The AI/TRG engineers already did all that testing for you. Etc.

With the above said, the AI/TRG are not good tinkering rifles. Also some people simply don't like the stocks of the AI/TRG and there the 700 has them whipped in terms of selection and after-market parts. Also the 700s can be made lighter which is a significant advantage sometimes.

I still have my 700. I like the 700s, but for my situation and view, the TRG/AI was where I was going to be anyway so it was just cheaper to get it over with than drag things out. But there's nothing wrong with a 700 and it's not the gear that makes the shooter anyway. I've outshot people with my 700 when they had much better gear. Then again I've been outshot by people with 700s when I was using an AI.
 
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epaultmbt said:
What the pro's use...

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...actical-shooters-equipment-what-pros-use.html

We'll see how many AI or TRG blasters make the top 10 in 2013.
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And those guys are mostly sponsored by custom shops and thus using their gear---don't recall any custom Remington 700s. Oftentimes their builders or gunsmiths are even at the matches (earlier this year George kindly gave me a tip at a PRS match how to fix my custom rifle that was having issues). These guys are from big shops that put out thousands of rifles and they know what it takes to make them work properly. Frequently, they are MORE money than AIs and TRGs, too.

And those guys are doing the precision rifle equivalent of drag racing, which you'll see things like souped up Chevelles and Mustangs.

1911 vs HK
Rem 700 vs AI
1970 Chevelle vs 2013 Corvette
Ricer vs Beamer
 
From what I've seen, the car comparison is fairly accurate. The guy with the Chevelle he pieced together has it at the track all the time beating on it, the guy with the new Corvette grandma'd it to the ice cream stand so everyone can ooooh and ahhhhh at it.
 
I've built a few bolt guns and...The biggest difference is one is guaranteed to be quality, the other isn't.

I've built a custom Savage from the ground up that was an absolute horror show.
I've built a custom Savage that turned out to be AMAZING.

I've had a Surgeon custom built as well that was a nightmare (bad Smith)...
I've had a Stiller 300wm that's an absolute DREAM...

The wildcard in building your own rifle is the Smith.

If you have a good smith and quality products, you'll get a good rifle.

That's what you pay for when you get an AI or a DTS. You're paying for a quality Smith on top of a proven product.

It's like building your own Shelby kit vs. buying the kit.

Are you willing to do it yourself, consult with an expert and be a little hands on with the parts...Or would you rather pay someone to do it for you that has a good reputation?

It doesn't mean that your Shelby won't be perfect...It just means that there are more chances for things to go wrong compared to the guy that does a couple thousand times a year.

That's really all it is.
 
I "have 4 Remmy 700's. Stock guns. I love to shoot them. I've got a 700, with a "better trigger, B&c stock, fluted bolt. I love to shoot it. they're all great guns, that shoot little dots, when I do my part. Any man would be happy with them. They carry Nikons, except the "fluted bolt". She carries a NF 12-42. I "came into some money", and got a GAP 10, TRG-42, in 300 Win Mag, And a "few others". I grab the 700s, when I "want to shoot". When I "want to treat myself", I grab the TRG, and the GAP. I want to keep the round count "down", on them.There is "something" about shooting a "fine gun": Ever shoot an old Parker?. It "adds something", to the experience. ALSO: Try to sell a "worked up custom gun", and then sell a TRG. As far as "investing goes", the high end factory guns hold there value, better. Tell them about "some one did this, and some one did that, and you added this and that, and you're "just trying to get your money out", and you've got a problem. U put a GAP, or a TRG, on the market, and they're no questions. I'll add Surgeon to the list. Some other guns should be "on the list". I can't think of them, right now. My 700s shoot great! The "better guns", shoot great, and carry a "special air" with them.Some times, I pull out my Grandfathers 30-30. Then I'm in Heaven.
 
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This is not going anywhere. Some of you are missing tylerw02's point which is that taking a 700 and building it up is like taking a car and building it up into something it wasn't intended to do in the first place. Yes you can take a Chevelle or Mustang or whatever your favorite brand is and make it a great performer I have done it. The 700 platform was designed to be a hunting rifle but can perform other duties. The AI was designed and built to be in the battlefield but it also might be seen at your local range sitting on the bench. If you have not handled both a custom and an AI or TRG it would not be fair to the OP to even comment on the subject. I have owned and shot many of both and my go to package is my AIAE MKIII not because I'm going to battle or throwing it over a wall or out of a helicopter but because I'm an asshole that likes to know my equipment is as good as it gets or as good as I can afford it to be.
 
I'm curious as to how many of the 700 guys in this thread have actually shot or extensively ran an AI or sako. I used to be that guy who thought itd be a waste of money to spend 4 grand on an AI. I then proceeded to sell both of my custom 700's for an aiae. I'd make that decision 10x over again if I had too. Basically everything tylerw02 has said has been spot on. We can tell you how great these rifles are all day but you will never truly understand until it's you behind the rifle.
 
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Wow there are alot of opinions on here, good ones at that. But after reading what everyone has to say, I am really considering an AE. It seems like a buy once/ cry once type of thing.
 
hypno02 said:
I'm curious as to how many of the 700 guys in this thread have actually shot or extensively ran an AI or sako. I used to be that guy who thought itd be a waste of money to spend 4 grand on an AI. I then proceeded to sell both of my custom 700's for an aiae. I'd make that decision 10x over again if I had too. Basically everything tylerw02 has said has been spot on. We can tell you how great these rifles are all day but you will never truly understand until it's you behind the rifle.
Click to expand...

I have owned 5 AIAWs. Never once did i consider shooting any of them in a match. Too heavy and crap ergonomics (to me). I compete with factory based customs that were built to fit ME.
 
I don't feel a AW/AE or a TRG is better than a well built custom rifle. I have owned a few AWs and AEs, currently have a custom barreled TRG 22. Both the AIs and TRGs are 1/2 minute guns, plenty accurate for match shooting. With that said, just about every custom built rifle I have owned will shoot smaller groups than the AW and TRG will, but thats not the only thing that defines a great rifle. Feeding, reliability, ergonomics, and of course accuracy all play a equaly important role.
 
I am not for an instant decrying those who want to buy a Nice AI or other such high end rifle. All I am saying is that it depends what your end game is. I don't live by my rifle----as in combat. I wanted the thrill of having a hand in building MY rifle. I have no intention of selling it, so resale is moot.

If you want the best upfront value---buy high end first.
If you want the fun and experience of building YOUR rifle, get an action, be it a custom action or a Remington 700, and have fun. If you do this, choose your gunsmith with care.
If you want certain components---such as I wanted a 34" barrel----you may be forced to do a "custom" build.



Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
 
I didnt read through all of this as i have read way to many other post that are just like this one. I think a guy has to determain what his goals or needs are for this rifle in question. If your going t compete, then you better buy the best that you can afford. If you just want something to ring some steel plates with, then shoot a factory rifle, or a lower end factory rifle, or whatever. A custom rifle has more to offer than just accuracy. Eezz of operation, ergonomics that best suits the shooter, reliability is another big factor. Everyone is different, and not everyone needs a custom rifle to full fill there hobbie. I for one love custom rifles and shoot them dam near every day. With all that said, i think my next purchase is going to be a cheap old Howa 1500. I will rebarrel the howa and stick a decent stock on and see what she can do. Im not even going to true it unless i see a reason to. I will shoot some steel with this rifle and maybe some critters. Lee
 
In rifles, you get what you pay for.

You can pay for things you don't need. You can overpay for things you do need. You can pay and not get what you need.

But you VERY RARELY get things you didn't pay for.
 
BradleyH said:
Wow there are alot of opinions on here, good ones at that. But after reading what everyone has to say, I am really considering an AE. It seems like a buy once/ cry once type of thing.
Click to expand...
If I could go back to the beginning and do this all over again, I would have purchased an AI AE III or a AI AX with a 6.5 CM barrel and topped it off with a 5-25 S&B. Sure, it would've hurt at first but it would've been cheaper in the long run. But, I learned a whole bunch building a R700 and then a custom from the ground up, and it was something my finances were able to manage without upsetting my better half.

Perhaps I would've also bought a R700 5R in 223 for plinking, fun, and to keep shooting costs down a bit.
 
I use to play a lot of pool. I hung out with guys that owned $200.00-$700.00 pool cues. We played all the time, in fact we all played on a league together. One night while practicing a guy walked in, picked up a crooked house cue and kicked all our asses. Sometimes having better equipment than the other guy is not an advantage. Just sayin'.
 
phillip61 said:
I use to play a lot of pool. I hung out with guys that owned $200.00-$700.00 pool cues. We played all the time, in fact we all played on a league together. One night while practicing a guy walked in, picked up a crooked house cue and kicked all our asses. Sometimes having better equipment than the other guy is not an advantage. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

As is the case with a $10,000 rifle in the hands of a novice....
 
To each his own. If you're serious about your shooting and know it's something you're willing to invest lots of time and practice into, I say go with what makes you happy and gives you confidence. You'll never be able to fault the rifle or the gear for shooting like a$$, and you'll definitely see improvement with time and practice.
 
Something designed from the factory to do the job is usually going to be more reliable than something that has been 'upgraded/converted/whathaveyou' to suit a purpose.

Case in point....

[video]http://demigodllc.com/video_serve.php?id=ss-rifle-fail[/video]
 
Again this conversation is not going anywhere. Take money out of the equation for a moment and then think to yourself, what would I get if I could only have one? I know what I would get, how about you?
 
First and foremost, this is a hobby to me, and everything I say should be taken as such. I don't make a living with firearms, so nothing should be interpreted otherwise.

I have both a high-end factory rifle, and a few custom R700s that were built in my home shop. My R700 builds can shoot as well as the AI under fair-weather conditions, but I wouldn't bet my life that they'd last tens of thousands of rounds, and they aren't the sort of thing that I'm likely to break out in -40C weather with the expectation of proper function. I do enjoy the custom builds because I specified the components and made the chips with my own hands, but I also enjoy having that one go-to rifle that absolutely will function under any circumstances.

As a related side note and using the automotive metaphor that has already been employed - I have a highly-modified '96 Chevy Impala, and a nearly-stock '06 Chrysler 300C SRT8. Both cost similar sums of money and go/stop/turn in a similar fashion (the Impala more so in each category due to very sticky tires, a bit more power, and a bit less weight), but the 300C is far more comfortable, far more reliable, and far less likely to cause me to beat my head against the garage wall in frustration. The Impala is the vehicle I can point towards as proof of my gearhead credentials (as opposed to my ability to simply write a check), but it's not what I'd depend upon to get me to work or transport my family safely.

Horses for courses, and what not...
 
phillip61 said:
I use to play a lot of pool. I hung out with guys that owned $200.00-$700.00 pool cues. We played all the time, in fact we all played on a league together. One night while practicing a guy walked in, picked up a crooked house cue and kicked all our asses. Sometimes having better equipment than the other guy is not an advantage. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

If I was a world class shooter and came upon a bunch of guys with their tricked out rifles and I wagered them to a shooting contest with my surplus 1903. Most would take the bet and lose. Similar to the pool story.

I do know I am objectively shooting better with my AIAW than my 700. Not opinion. Scores and targets prove that.
 
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