Rifle Scopes Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

cal50

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I have to laugh just a bit by the large amount (IMHO) of Leupold bashing by some on the board.I find it personally funny how a person with a + $2000 scope bags on someone with a $1500 scope and keeps a straight face. Now granted I have never pounded tent stakes with any of my optics or played lawn jarts with them either nor do I intend the need to.

Looking at my Mosin Nagant PU with it's crude 2X optics really make me appreciate modern optics. It also reinforces my belief its the person running the rifle and not always the equipment. I have owned several domestic and high end foreign optics. I have never had a failure with any of them for mechanics so I must be lucky.

And for the record I like my IOR glass better than my MK4 but both are great scopes and no complaints.

Rant mode off!
 

KNIGHT11B4

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Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

Im sure there are some who are Loopy bashing, but I think majority are speaking the truth as from experience with better optics.

I still have a Loopy on my .308 GAP. Does it work, yes... do I want to replace it, hell yes.

It has gotten the job done at comps, no doubt. But a NF, USO, SB ect, would be a huge improvement.

They work, but they are far from the best. Not bashing, just calling it how I see it.
 

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    I have personally experienced wandering zeros, illumination break downs, and a whole elevation turret unscrewing off a scope.

    So my leupold bashing is not "being trendy". Leupold has decided to go for short term profit.

    My Nightforces on the other hand have been awesome.

    -dan
     

    brand692

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    Not going to rant. But I'll tell you the facts.

    I bought two Leupold LCS's 45x45mm new.
    Both cost $1000 each.
    I opened both of them, for the first time out of the wrapping.
    Both had canted reticles new from the factory.
    Both went back to the factory.
    I waited for both to come back.
    6 weeks later, they showed up.
    Both were serviced for free.
    Both were sold, NEW but serviced, at $850 when they got back from the factory.

    I spent 1000/scope only to have to send them back due to canted reticles. Furthermore, these were on their "Competition Series" line. In my mind, a "Competition Series" scope should be held to the highest QC standards.

    I lost $500 dollars on them, not to count the shipping costs getting them back to the factory.

    I replaced both of them with NF BRs 12-42x56mm. I spent 1200 each on them. They have the same unconditional warranty that the Leupolds have, and come from the factory without canted reticles.

    On the other hand I had a flip up break on my PH 3-15x50. Also, I changed the battery in it and totally screwed up the battery cover. I talked to Paul Lange and he Two Day Aired the parts-FOR FREE.

    I've NEVER had a problem with a USO. But then those are in a different price point all together.

    But the NF BR isn't far off from the Leupold LCS. I've never had any problem ever with a NF.

    You tell me.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    It is not about bashing the owners of leupold, that is not what is happening by any means.

    It is about a company resting on its reputation that continues to move away from what gave it that reputation.

    As the incidents of issues increases, so do the number of complaints. In today's scope market its not smart to rest on your heels, there are too many quality competitors who are more than willing to do it better, as well as listen to its customers, unfortunately in the new corporate environment Leupold has embraced, they are not one of these companies.

    Many of these complaints come from a frustation of people who remember when they were the standard, however that standard hasn't been the same since about 1998. Having great customer service is fine, but I would rather not need it, which is why many turn away to other companies. Not mention failing behind on the features most sought after for today's tactical shooter.
     

    ORD

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    While I am sure that bashing just for bashing's sake does occur...most of the "bashing" around here is justified. Poor QC, lack of innovation/product development (until fairly recently...Leupold didn't do FFP reticles, mil adjustments were unheard of, etc., etc.), and so on have all contributed to Leupold's "slippage" in terms of its reputation. I have personally had two different Leupold Mk4 scopes go south on me in the last year with various problems. Also, lets not forget that when you start looking through some of the higher quality scopes (NF, PH, S&B, Hensoldt, etc.) that you quickly realize how good their glass is in comparison with the Leupolds. On top of all of this...Leupold's prices continue to escalate while their quality, innovation and available features along with their glass have stagnated.

    Why spend $1,500 or more on a Leupold when comparable money or a few hundred dollars more gets you into a whole different class of optics that are vastly superior in virtually every respect??
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    I also think the customer is getting smarter, and they are shooting more than ever.

    We had a L/E officer who had a Leupold on his duty rifle since the beginning, and by the 3rd day of class it was clear the scope was off. He couldn't understand it as it had always worked for him for years. I asked him, how long in your work along with training would it take to fire as many rounds as were put downrange in 3 days. His answer was 9 months to year... its easy to miss issues when it takes you a year to fire 250 rounds with a rifle.

    This is especially true with the hunters out there who swear by the Leupold brand, they might not shoot 250 rounds in 2 years, and as long as they can hit the paper plate at 50 yards they are happy.

    Now that people truly know how to check a scope's tracking and are not relying on a box test done on an 8.5" X 11" sheet of paper, more and more we see problems.

    Savvy consumers in today's market.
     

    Longshot38

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    I think everyone here has covered the topics well. I will say my gripe with Leupold is that they continue to increase their prices yet they are increasingly slow at coming out with new features. Also the QC has really fallen from what it once was. I'm not getting into the whole story but I will say I have owned a Mk4 and there is no way I could justify that kind of money on that scope again. If I am going to spend $1500 plus dollars on a scope I'm going to get something that is EXACTLY what I want.

    So given the facts and my past experience I just can't put Leupold up on a pedestal an more. They simply make a good scope but good is not with the price their products demand. When it comes to spending my hard earned money, it will go somewhere that has better quality for the money.
     

    cal50

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    Well I truly hope someone that works for Leupold reads these comments. It's sad to hear bad experience with any product. I can say I have not purchased any new Leupold glass in the past two years. My MK4-16X was purchased when premier optics was in full swing and was built well.

    As someone that works in manufacturing and the quality field it pains me to read about problems and especially unresolved problems.
     

    427Cobra

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    Yall know that someday Nightforce will do the same exact thing Leupold did, cheapen the shit out of the products to maximize profits, and there profits will be so high that returning to a quaility built product with a lifetime warrenty that's not needed won't return
     

    Fury

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    I've been reading up on the discussions regarding Leupold at this fine site and I'd like to offer just a few comments from an outsider.

    In talking with some friends and also reading some of the information out there, there not only seems to be the issue of value (quality in relation to price) but also of customer service. Due to work commitments I was not fully aware of the issues concerning Leupold and Premier Reticle. But what I've read is pretty troubling and some friends had such a concern about the matter that, rightly or wrongly, they decided to purchase their optics elsewhere.

    I've had for around ten years a Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M3. Bought it new from Premier and had them put in a Mil-Dot and do some other work. Had the good fortune to talk with Mr. Thomas on a couple of occasions and found him to be a quality-minded and customer service oriented gentleman. The scope has had a large quantity of rounds fired under it and I've never had an issue with the scope.

    But at least with the folks I talk with, the issue with Premier was in many ways the last straw. They expressed concerns with quality and when there was an issue with Premier not able to get parts for repairs for Leupold scopes, they had had enough.

    I've also read about the issues with Leupold having some of their work machines and/or assembled in P.R.C. That's another issue, and one that is not going to sit well with some folks and it's understandable, if the perception is that prices are increasing and quality is decreasing. Personally, if the product is a *quality product* and *fits the need*, it may not be possible to buy American. An example for me is that Kifaru does not make a comparable pack to the Mexpedition Remora, so I buy the Remora (made in Taiwan), as it has the capabilities needed for a specific application. I know of several people who have bought Leupold scopes "made" in the P.R.C. and the quality is sub-standard.

    I'll jump off the soapbox, but believe the issues with Leupold go beyond price.
     

    Prairie Dog Dundee

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    Looking at it from a different angle. I own two older Leupolds and I'm happy with the quality. I own different rifles for different applications i.e. Prairie Dogs, Preditors, Medium game, SPR, Bolt etc. I can't justify a dozen top end scopes for the ammount of use they get. Leupold VXIII performance is cool for my needs. However, I can now get 95% of the performance of a Leupold at 50% of the price in a scope that meets my needs with features I want. Super Sniper and Vortex is what I've been buying lately. Both have excellent service and warranties. Maybe ignorance is bliss but I'm a happy camper. I'm half afraid to buy a USO because as a wise man once said, "If I never felt the sunshine I would not curse the rain."
     

    USMCj

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    I think Frank hit the nail right on the head. Leupold has not made a great optic in a very long time. They are charging $1500 for a $600 scope just because people will pay for a brand they recognize. Their quality control has gone down the drain and they are not making any efforts to fix it.

    Soon enough they will loose enough customers to USo/NF/S&B and many others that they will notice.

    Also, remember that most of their sales come from hunting optics, not tactical. Perhaps thats why it took them 10 freaking years to offer mil/mil scopes, they just dont care too much about the tactical market.
     

    bmt

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    There are better target and competition scopes.

    There are scopes with better light transmission.

    There are many scopes that are better at any one aspect of shooting.

    But many, many professional "Operators", hunting guides, and other serious riflemen swear by Leupold. I have trained with them or been trained by them. They have no reason to lie. They can use whatever they want.

    I ran 600 rounds of 308 through a DPMS carbine at ThunderRanch (Oregon) over a 52 hour period.

    NO PROBLEMS with a 6x42 HEAVY Duplex scope w/ an elevation turret.

    I was also the only shooter making hits at 300 meters with the Frangible ammo we were required to use.

    The class was "Urban Precision Rifle" and required a lot of shooting from improvised positions, movement, maneuvering stairs, etc.

    Leupold FX-III and VX-III lever scopes simply work.

    NOTE ABOUT CHINA: All Leupold and Redfield Rifle scopes are made here in Oregon. Sadly, distributors demand an entire optics line, forcing Leupold to build a line Binocs, Rangefinders, etc from outside suppliers.

    Your mileage may vary . . . . .

    BMT
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    BMT,

    Call Clint Smith up and ask him about the last Leupold they sent him... you notice Clint and Heidi use S&B now.

    Just because "some" work as advertised, doesn't make it a revelation. Besides, if you can't get a fixed 6X right you really shouldn't be making scopes anymore. It's the simplest form of the product to make, a fixed power scope that will hold up to "normal" use.

    you may also want to recheck that fact about the rifle scopes. Next time you walk into a gun store, look for that "Made in USA" label, I think you'll find it missing.

     

    96C

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps thats why it took them 10 freaking years to offer mil/mil scopes, they just dont care too much about the tactical market. </div></div>

    Because we're the ones who USE the shit until it breaks... So they keep distance perhaps.
    I had a MK4 for a few years, it was a good clean scope that ran well and got the job done. If the MOA turrets matched the MIL reticle (TMR - which I think is great) then I'd probably still use it.

    Like everyone says, it's the name not the product nowadays. A companies inability to work with the end user is destined to go stagnant and whither.
     

    BCP

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    This is especially true with the hunters out there who swear by the Leupold brand, they might not shoot 250 rounds in 2 years, and as long as they can hit the paper plate at 50 yards they are happy.
    </div></div>

    That would be my father.

    He taught me how to shoot, hunt, and handload. I learned how not to jerk a trigger, how to break myself of flinching, how to shoot off homemade shooting sticks, how to grip a mag revolver, how to shoot a semi pistol (a hipower, when he went BK years ago he sold it, I tracked down the owner and bought it back) but he never taught me how to test a scope's "tracking" or even mount it level. That just wasn't something he concerned himself with. He would mount it where he liked it, zero it at 200 and then use it.

    There are lots of people out there like my father for whom Leupold is tits. For the tactical market? Not so much. And that's where the bashing comes from.
     

    thmpr

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    The strangest part about all this.... Is why would KAC place this on their M110 rifle?
     

    BCP

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thmpr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The strangest part about all this.... Is why would KAC place this on their M110 rifle? </div></div>

    I highly doubt they did. I'm willing to bet that scope was chosen by the Gov because they've been using a similar one for awhile on other rifles.
     

    SANDRAT

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    I may be wrong,but the warranty differs from the Golden Ring Series to the MKIV series.The warranty not being a lifetime on the MKIV ?
     

    Matt in Virginia

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    It is about a company resting on its reputation that continues to move away from what gave it that reputation. </div></div>

    fwiw,
    Concur.

    Regards, Matt Garrett
    757-581-6270
     

    rjroberts

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    They may be good, some may be bad - it happens. But, they definitely are overpriced, which is indicative of the "laurels, etc...." comment. I was in the market for a 10x. A Leupold was $1,300. - $1,400. for one, plus accys. I bought a USO 10x for $1000. with shade, caps and ARD.
     

    lwrkeysfisher

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    It's funny they still advertise on here... For the most part I buy Leupold products because it is hard to beat their prices if you get the mil/le discount. But again I have not had a bad one yet, and my opinion will probably change if I do. And yes, I do/have owned better optics.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    Leupold doesn't advertise here, a reseller of advertising they use does, there is a difference understanding what you are looking at.

    That ad you see is through Tactical Republic, and we don't filter their ads, BSA is part of their cannon of advertiser too.
     

    DP425

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thmpr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The strangest part about all this.... Is why would KAC place this on their M110 rifle? </div></div>

    If KAC had it's way, the M110 would NOT have came equipped with the M2- safe to say it wouldn't have even came with a Leupold. This was a requirement by army contract. Unfortunately the army loves tradition- and since Leupold has supplied their scopes since 1986... well, they stick with what they know, despite what troops in the field tell them.

    Out of 15 brand new, out of box M110 systems two failed the box test and another simply wouldn't hold zero. Doesn't speak too highly for Leupold's QC.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thmpr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The strangest part about all this.... Is why would KAC place this on their M110 rifle? </div></div>

    If KAC had it's way, the M110 would NOT have came equipped with the M2- safe to say it wouldn't have even came with a Leupold. This was a requirement by army contract. Unfortunately the army loves tradition- and since Leupold has supplied their scopes since 1986... well, they stick with what they know, despite what troops in the field tell them.

    Out of 15 brand new, out of box M110 systems two failed the box test and another simply wouldn't hold zero. Doesn't speak too highly for Leupold's QC.</div></div>

    Per a class of 20 we see 2 to 5 not work every single class... part of the reason they use the Leupold is the replacement requirement to have "X" number immediately available for replacement. The guys who have Leupold's on their service rifles usually have a deployment box full of replacements. It's wastes a whole morning figuring out which scopes don't work, and then replacing them.
     

    lwrkeysfisher

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    Got it, I must admit I always get a chuckle when I see the BSA ad--but then everyone must start somewhere...

    The Leupold problem makes more sense to me now, knowing they don't advertise on here. Leupold could likely fix their problems and image, I am just not sure they care that much about the LR tactical shooting market. It seems that if Gov contracts, hunters, and Wal-Mart shoppers are allowing them to hit growth and margin goals then why focus R&D money on a refined(picky) community of shooters. Especially when you can still play a role in that market by selling your Gov contract leftovers (read: no fixed costs, only variable) and a few beefed up hunitng models to a portion of them.

    It will be interesting to see what happens to Nightforce when they are left all alone in the middle market. Eventually Nightforce's competitors will figure out how to build very similar products for substantially less money. Seeing from Leupold that price <> Quality, hopefully Nightforce is spending the requisite R&D money to make the middle market equivalent to the current S&B, Zeiss, & USO lines. Then we all win...
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    You have to understand something with Leupold, when this site first started back in 2000, I had a page on here explaining a Mil Dot reticle. It was pretty generic. Anyway, Leupold through Mike Slack and his team of Attorneys sent the site a cease and decease letter, to which we posted it on here publicly.

    The outcry began in earnest because honestly it was nothing more than an explanation of a reticle, and finally after a pretty brutal response I got a call from Jim Siegfried there at Leupold and he smoothed the whole thing over. Within 6 months of that, Jim left Leupold and things went back to corporate attack mode.

    Shortly after this incident is when they decided the work Premier was doing was money they could be making and Leupold corporate pulled the rug out from under Premier Reticle.

    So even from back in 2000 moving forward there is a pattern that goes counter to what one would expect. For several years after we approached them to talk, and each time they decided the internet was a space they didn't need to worry about.
     

    lwrkeysfisher

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    Interesting. They definetly misread the market trends. On their careers page they are looking for a Sr. Cost Analysis also when I called them recently they told me were building to order, this all sounds to me like a 6-sigma implementation. It will be interesting to see what the future holds...

    Thank you for the history lesson, I have been curious about where this all started since I started looking at this and other firearms forums almost three years ago (yeah it took me while to join).
     

    jwp475

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lwrkeysfisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's funny they still advertise on here... For the most part I buy Leupold products because it is hard to beat their prices if you get the mil/le discount. But again I have not had a bad one yet, and my opinion will probably change if I do. And yes, I do/have owned better optics. </div></div>


    They are fricking over priced IMHO. I sight in a lot of rifles for people and Leupys are way ahead of the curve in the not tracking correctly department. Vastly over priced for a scope that doesn't work as well as some lower priced brands
     

    Nessal

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    I won't bash Leupolds but my experience with them is very limited. I got the Leupold Mark AR for my AR15 and that scope is still one of the best bang for the buck scopes that I have bought today. The glass is amazingly clear and the turrets are very audible and the feel are very tactile. It never lost its zero either. All for $350...I couldn't ask for more. Dare I say that I like the turrets on the Leupold more than my Nightforce NXS? The only gripe that I have about it is that there is not much internal adjustment...but if you're shooting out of an AR, it fits the bill perfectly fine.

    That's the limit of my experience with Leupold products and I haven't been let down yet.
     

    bmt

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BMT,

    Call Clint Smith up and ask him about the last Leupold they sent him... you notice Clint and Heidi use S&B now.

    </div></div>

    Yes, Heidi does have an S&B on her GAP and 338 Lapua (and maybe some other stuff I have not seen). But she is shooting in competition now.

    And that is my point, there are better competition and target scopes.

    Leupolds are designed for a certain task--hunting. They do it extremely well.

    a Leupold FX-III or VX-III can be relied upon to get a bullet on a game animal here in the Coastal NW Rainforest in November, in a Dry dusty gulley in Sonora, or in a freezing Alaskan forest.

    That ain't "tactical". That ain't "competition". Its hunting.

    Its what Leupold does.

    I have corresponded with Jim (he uses Leupold on his rifle:

    http://www.huntingadventures.net/index.php?nav=newsandarticles&id=1

    And Phil:

    http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/

    They use and recommend Leupold. I take their advice seriously.

    I also represent a few "operators" for tax purposes (I am a Tax Lawyer). These guys are "independent contractors" earning money offshore who contact me for advice.

    From time to time, conversation turns to equipment. They use Leupold VX-III 1.5-5 Ilum Reticle scopes on their M-4s.

    Why? Because they spend their days getting in an out of vehicles, getting stuff banged around a lot, and the shoot very little (kind like hunting, eh?).

    As I said, there are better scopes for competition.

    There are better scopes for a lot of things.

    As for "Made in the USA" logos, its a legal issue. The scopes are made here in the Oregon. But Glass is special ordered from all over the world. Some scopes may contain too much "foreign content" to qualify as "made in the USA"

    I don't a Leupold tactical scope. I don't own a Leupold TARGET scope. Which is the point I made in my first post.

    If I was deployed tomorrow (a fantasy at age 47 with two reconstructed knees) I would gladly place a Leupold fixed 2.5 scope on my M-4.

    But I would Bring a Leica Rangefinder, and Swaro binocs, and I would lean heavily toward a nightforce on a bolt gun (hey, its my fantasy-I'll bring a S&W revolver too).

    Hopefully, I have clarified my position.

    Good shooting,

    BMT
     

    jwp475

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BMT,

    Call Clint Smith up and ask him about the last Leupold they sent him... you notice Clint and Heidi use S&B now.

    </div></div>

    Yes, Heidi does have an S&B on her GAP and 338 Lapua (and maybe some other stuff I have not seen). But she is shooting in competition now.

    And that is my point, there are better competition and target scopes.

    Leupolds are designed for a certain task--hunting. They do it extremely well.

    a Leupold FX-III or VX-III can be relied upon to get a bullet on a game animal here in the Coastal NW Rainforest in November, in a Dry dusty gulley in Sonora, or in a freezing Alaskan forest.

    That ain't "tactical". That ain't "competition". Its hunting.

    Its what Leupold does.

    I have corresponded with Jim (he uses Leupold on his rifle:

    http://www.huntingadventures.net/index.php?nav=newsandarticles&id=1

    And Phil:

    http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/

    They use and recommend Leupold. I take their advice seriously.

    I also represent a few "operators" for tax purposes (I am a Tax Lawyer). These guys are "independent contractors" earning money offshore who contact me for advice.

    From time to time, conversation turns to equipment. They use Leupold VX-III 1.5-5 Ilum Reticle scopes on their M-4s.

    Why? Because they spend their days getting in an out of vehicles, getting stuff banged around a lot, and the shoot very little (kind like hunting, eh?).

    As I said, there are better scopes for competition.

    There are better scopes for a lot of things.

    As for "Made in the USA" logos, its a legal issue. The scopes are made here in the Oregon. But Glass is special ordered from all over the world. Some scopes may contain too much "foreign content" to qualify as "made in the USA"

    I don't a Leupold tactical scope. I don't own a Leupold TARGET scope. Which is the point I made in my first post.

    If I was deployed tomorrow (a fantasy at age 47 with two reconstructed knees) I would gladly place a Leupold fixed 2.5 scope on my M-4.

    But I would Bring a Leica Rangefinder, and Swaro binocs, and I would lean heavily toward a nightforce on a bolt gun (hey, its my fantasy-I'll bring a S&W revolver too).

    Hopefully, I have clarified my position.

    Good shooting,

    BMT



    </div></div>


    I am a hunter as well and a "who turned out the lights" Leupy is the last optic that I want on my rifle. I used them for decades before I opened my eyes..
     

    Prairie Dog Dundee

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have to understand something with Leupold, when this site first started back in 2000, I had a page on here explaining a Mil Dot reticle. It was pretty generic. Anyway, Leupold through Mike Slack and his team of Attorneys sent the site a cease and decease letter, to which we posted it on here publicly.

    The outcry began in earnest because honestly it was nothing more than an explanation of a reticle, and finally after a pretty brutal response I got a call from Jim Siegfried there at Leupold and he smoothed the whole thing over. Within 6 months of that, Jim left Leupold and things went back to corporate attack mode.

    Shortly after this incident is when they decided the work Premier was doing was money they could be making and Leupold corporate pulled the rug out from under Premier Reticle.

    So even from back in 2000 moving forward there is a pattern that goes counter to what one would expect. For several years after we approached them to talk, and each time they decided the internet was a space they didn't need to worry about. </div></div>

    Sadly much of the corporate world has gone this route. Some of the new managment systems make accounting king.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    Well, I can tell you competition has nothing to due with Clint and Heidi's choice in optic that I promise you because I was the one there helping them make the transition to Mil / Mil -- if you read the article Clint wrote on the subject he references this site and my assistance in the matter.

    His Hammer, Judy Chop, and others all wear the same exact scope on them, and they are not all competition rifles by any means, his rifles are decidedly tactical.
     

    bmt

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I can tell you competition has nothing to due with Clint and Heidi's choice in optic that I promise you because I was the one there helping them make the transition to Mil / Mil -- if you read the article Clint wrote on the subject he references this site and my assistance in the matter.

    His Hammer, Judy Chop, and others all wear the same exact scope on them, and they are not all competition rifles by any means, his rifles are decidedly tactical. </div></div>

    OK.
     

    Magnumdood

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...This is especially true with the hunters out there who swear by the Leupold brand, they might not shoot 250 rounds in 2 years, and as long as they can hit the paper plate at 50 yards they are happy...</div></div>
    Oh how true it is! You need only peek in on other boards to read posters, who are hunters, willing to come to blows defending their wonderful Leupolds. But, even among that demographic there are quite a few who are voicing the same specific complaints about Leupold scopes that we read on here.
     

    Red Belly

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    The first scope I ever bought was a Leupold M4 3.5-10 x 40mm. Out of the box it had a canted reticle & tracking issues. I was brand new to precision rifle shooting & I could not figure out what was wrong. I wasted a lot of time & money at the range. A friend of mine(a Porter Cup Winner & ex Army sniper) took a look at the rifle & scope. He quickly told me the scope was the issue. I had the scope repaired & I sold it. This was my first and only experience with leupold. It was only one scope. With my limited experience I don't think I can make a blanket statement about leupold products.

    However, I will NEVER again purchase a Leupold scope. I am much more informed, thanks to this site for one, about optics now. I feel there are much better products out there than what leupold has to offer me. That's just my opinion...I could be wrong.
     

    TimK

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    New Leupy Mark 4 in 8.5-25. I tested it today and it has the following issues:

    Canted reticle
    Tracking issues (won't return to zero)
    dialing in 36 moa of elevation yields 40 moa of movement
    Adjusting windage affects the parallax setting

    I'm not bashing...it's just crap.
     

    SANDRAT

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">New Leupy Mark 4 in 8.5-25. I tested it today and it has the following issues:

    Canted reticle
    Tracking issues (won't return to zero)
    dialing in 36 moa of elevation yields 40 moa of movement
    Adjusting windage affects the parallax setting

    I'm not bashing...it's just crap.
    </div></div>

    After being a member on here more than 6 mos,you ought to know better.Be willing to bet it did not cost much less than a NF with similar features.

    "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweet taste of low price is forgotten"
     

    TimK

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">New Leupy Mark 4 in 8.5-25. I tested it today and it has the following issues:

    Canted reticle
    Tracking issues (won't return to zero)
    dialing in 36 moa of elevation yields 40 moa of movement
    Adjusting windage affects the parallax setting

    I'm not bashing...it's just crap.
    </div></div>

    After being a member on here more than 6 mos,you ought to know better.Be willing to bet it did not cost much less than a NF with similar features.

    "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweet taste of low price is forgotten"
    </div></div>

    Yeah, I know. I bought it before coming here and just got around to testing it after spotting some problems. Never again.
     

    BCP

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magnumdood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Oh how true it is! You need only peek in on other boards to read posters, who are hunters, willing to come to blows defending their wonderful Leupolds. </div></div>

    Yeah I notice that too. It's pretty funny.
     

    Terry Cross

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Leupolds are designed for a certain task--hunting. They do it extremely well.
    That ain't "tactical". That ain't "competition". Its hunting.

    Its what Leupold does.

    </div></div>

    Then why does Leupold produce a "tactical" line of products and why does Leupold feverishly compete for that market? They have reincarnated a whole new L.E. and Military division to support all of the products that they have crammed in under the well respected but highly prostituted Mk 4 line.

    None of the negative comments you refer to as "bashing" on this forum were targeted at Leupold's "hunting" products. Almost all comments are toward Leupold products that are produced for high risk environments even though many are used in competition and recreation.

    In my opinion your above comments have no relevance to the discussion as this is not a hunting forum and the thread was not started in that vein. I am not trying to discourage you from debating the topic but the center of your comments is totally out of the bounds of this argument.
     

    Terry Cross

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    As for "Made in the USA" logos, its a legal issue. The scopes are made here in the Oregon. But Glass is special ordered from all over the world. Some scopes may contain too much "foreign content" to qualify as "made in the USA"
    </div></div>

    Most certainly it is a legal issue. Also a marketing and reputation issue.

    How do you define "made". Assembly or actual manufacture? If a majority of components and/or sub-assemblies originate out of country (too much foreign content)then at what point do you cross the line to state that they are made in Oregon.

    Your glass statement is out of bounds as Leupold has never been able to acquire domestic glass in the volume and quality needed to sustain their operations. At one point they did qualify to place "made in USA" on their products and packaging even with imported glass.

    Please elaborate as to what you know for sure is "made" in Oregon and why it cannot qualify for domestic manufacture status.

    Not trying to be hostile so please don't let lack of context deter you from this debate.

    TC


     

    Gildoom

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    I have a few Leupolds, my Mark 4, I wish was a US Optic now that I know a bit more. It does a fine job, but I would like that bigger knob and no, I don't feel like sending another scope to Leupold.

    I have a SWFA 10x the cheaper one, non HD, and I can NOT tell a difference between it and my "hunting" Leos. I have had friends and even the wife look through for comparison, nobody can tell a difference. Is this scientific? Nope.

    Will I own other Leos? Probably, I cannot lie and say the cost never influences my opinion. Do I kill people for a living? Nope. That removes my "need" big time.

    Do some people bash something cause it is cheaper? Sure do, "OMG IS ALL SHE CAN AFFORD A 3 SERIES?!"

    Shit, I don't even understand the Mil stuff 10 minutes after someone explains it to me, so most of the features on the scope I don't even use I bet. Which, you can rest assure, that the same folks beating the piss out of Leo are the same as me, clueless. UNLESS SOMETHING IS BROKEN!(just read some problems and I have never experienced this)

    What TC said is so accurate. I did work at Oregon Food Products a few years ago, after getting done with the cals and taking shit out to the van I said how cool it is to see them support Oregon Farmers. Uhhh these cherries are from Michigan. They are just canned here in Oregon.

     

    Oddball Six

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Most certainly it is a legal issue. Also a marketing and reputation issue.

    How do you define "made". Assembly or actual manufacture?</div></div>

    Happily, the FTC has specified the legal definition applicable here. Two criteria apply:

    Assembly and us based components comprise at least 75% of the cost of the good and second that the final transformation of the product is done in the united states.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    If a majority of components and/or sub-assemblies originate out of country (too much foreign content)then at what point do you cross the line to state that they are made in Oregon.
    </div></div>

    See above. If its made in the USA, logic would dictate it would have to have then been assembled in the United States somewhere.

    Given that Leupold has a factory in Beaverton Oregon which has been the primary assembly location for 3 decades, I think its a pretty good bet if the product is from Leupold and qualifies under the FTC two-part test as Made in USA, it would also be deemed to have been made in Oregon.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Your glass statement is out of bounds as Leupold has never been able to acquire domestic glass in the volume and quality needed to sustain their operations. At one point they did qualify to place "made in USA" on their products and packaging even with imported glass.
    </div></div>

    It is ironic that someone arguing in a forum thread is telling someone else, also arguing in a forum thread, that thier forum comment was out of bounds. I could see someone making that claim if one were to insult your mother. Or bring in some religious insult to this discussion. There are some bounds which we tend to implement through peer pressure on the basis of community acceptance.

    I don't think talking about the sourcing of glass in a scope falls out of what would be reasonable in a discussion of optic manufacturer quality.

    Interestingly I think BMT held your same point on this aspect of the products, when he noted "but glass is special ordered from all over the world". The key then is the value of the glass and foreign components relative to the cost of manufacture. When the glass from Japan or elsewhere combined with various cams and housings and so forth reaches a point where it no longer costs less than 1/3 of the cost of assembly in the US, the overall final product no longer qualifies under the FTC program to use that sticker.

    I don't think BMT was insulting Leupold, I think he was simply explaining that there is a lot that is sourced elsewhere which is why many of the later scopes no longer qualify for that program as the cost of manufacture in china and japan has gone up relative to the pretty static assembly costs in the US.

    My own two cents is that I dont think the problem really is where the glass and housing and what not are coming from. Many manufacturers are sourcing components from elsewhere. Do you know what country is the number 1 buyer of high grade CNC tooling from Germany and Japan? Its China.

    They aren't using 5 millionths capable multi-axis CNCs for your kid's cabbage patch dolls.

    Most manufacturers out there are in a position where they <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to globalize the supply chain to remain reasonably competitive. Some still assemble here for greatest control and skilled labor pool, some have leveraged the MUCH lower cost labor forces of the Philippines or elsewhere. The trade off, of course, being additional introduced risk to your intellectual property and continuity of supply, volatility in your cost of goods sold, as well as a risk of increased service and QC expense.

    I think Leupold's drop in quality has more to do with a determination to limit R&D spending, maximize production on existing proven designs, as well as a failure to invigorate the quality control process. When you combine that with awful warranties for their LE and military channel products, you end up with the frustration you see in this thread.

    Does that mean that Leupold sucks as a whole? I don't think so. As with any spending. Know your options. Know why you are selecting a certain product or other. Know what you are willing to spend. And make your choice.

    I know my choice is going elsewhere for the next little while.
     

    bmt

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Please elaborate as to what you know for sure is "made" in Oregon and why it cannot qualify for domestic manufacture status.

    </div></div>

    I took a 3 day Outdoor survival class with a senior product developer from Leupold. Straight up guy. The class was held along the far Southern Oregon Coast (overlooking the cranberry bogs).

    We were "Odd Men Out" as the others in the class came in teams (either assigned by their employer or family members).

    Over the course of shelter building, night watch, food prep, and other stuff, we discussed out jobs, shooting, etc.

    He gave the information about China, Made in the US, some of the products he was working on, etc. At the time, he had a VARIABLE POWER scout scope on a Marlin Rifle that he carried for the class.

    In turn, I talked about taxation, estate planning, the Heller
    case, etc.

    He gave me some good information about spotting scopes (I bought leupolds) and Rangefinders (I bought Leica).

    From time to time I email him about this or that product and he gives me tips that have proven extremely insightful.

    Therefore, I trust his statements about "Made in USA."

    Whether that is the Gospel on the subject, I do not know. But I surely trust my source.

    BMT
     

    jwp475

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    Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?




    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leupold bashing: is it trendy? </div></div>

    I don't know if it is trendy are not but it is accurate