Rifle Scopes Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

Ok some of the leupolds are crap for the price the older VX2's and VX3's seem to be Ok if they do not have target or Tacticle turrets it seems to me that Leupold has realy let their target type turrets to be less than the standard required also in this day and age they have totaly stopped making the quality and first rate gear that the end user wants like a 5-25 Tacticle scope with FFP and Mill/Mill. i think they are just trading on past reputation and that is it they are not realy up to date or proactive in making a better product. One example is there 34mm VX7 scope it only comes with extra high rings but it has the cutout objective to be lower to the bore but that is a waste of time as the rings would allow the scope to have the full 56mm objective it does not make sense if you want it to be able to be mounted lower make a lower 34mm ring.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

Oddball,

Good point.
After reading my own post, my choice of words was poor regarding BMT being out of bounds. Sorry BMT.

My intent was to point out that the post I was responding to seemed to be directed at product lines (hunting) not associated with all the earlier Leupold critique threads. Per my earlier post, I did not want to discourage the debate or play forum police about who has a right to post. . . . .

I am aware of the basic FTC rules for marketing as domestic origin and was not technically asking him for such. Just making a (poor) attempt to demonstrate that outside legal bounds, the term "Made" is very, very loosely used by many companies and customers.

You said "Given that Leupold has a factory in Beaverton Oregon which has been the primary assembly location for 3 decades, I think its a pretty good bet if the product is from Leupold and qualifies under the FTC two-part test as Made in USA, it would also be deemed to have been made in Oregon."

So are we to assume that it is made in Oregon, just not enough to mark the product with "made in USA"?

Also, I should add that I would like Leupold to once again become the standard for rifle optics across the board. I just don't think that they have the focus and discipline to do it.

While I would prefer more of these products be of U.S. origins, I would not bash or look down on a product because of its country of manufacture. I am aware that PRC and others have the capability and equipment to make high end products. I have an awful lot of imported measuring equipment, optics and tools at my place but at least they are marked as such and I was able to make somewhat accurate purchasing decisions.

If Leupold uses tons of imported components and sub-assemblies to lower their costs, yet their selling prices continue to escalate. . . .

If Leupold uses more plastics and poor quality components in an effort to control costs, yet their marketing continues to paint manly pictures of their durability . . . .

Lots of other threads and posts on this forum history to show specifics, so I won't elaborate.

I think we parallel each other on this topic, I just let my personal feelings on the subject migrate into these debates and then totally drive off a cliff with my choice of words.

TC

 

[DWood]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

It seems like every forum I visit has some "bashing" and each has its own character. This forum has way less than most, and maybe Leupold is a target. Over on another site, don't bring up Spike's Tactical or a non mil spec AR unless you want to go at it.

Most of the comments I see on the Hide are not what I consider bashing, and those that are bashing are addressed quickly by the moderators.

As someone posted earlier, I just don't find Leupold to be a good value, price to quality ratio. My scopes are USO or S & B. high price, good value, at least to me.

 

[Willys46]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

The thing the really suprises me is if this topic was started about Vortex, USO, or Nightforce some one from the company would be on here trying to salavage there reputation.

I am 30 min form Leupold and now run a Nightforce on my tactical comp gun and Leupold on my varmint gun. I would be very upset to have a scope go bad during a match.

I want to support the local guy, but they flat refused to produce a product that "WE/I" wanted or needed.

I agree Leupold stopped inovating around 1997 tell this year. They finally relized they are behind the curve! Is it to late? We will see going forward.

If they want to get back in this game of selling tactical highend optics, they need to find out what their customers are looking for and listen. I think the tide is changing, but I will not be holding my breath.

 

[BCP]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Willys46</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing the really suprises me is if this topic was started about Vortex, USO, or Nightforce some one from the company would be on here trying to salavage there reputation.
</div></div>

That doesn't really surprise me. Leupold is a big-box company like Nikon and Bushnell - they are more about casting a very large net rather than making specialized optics. If leupie really wanted into the tactical market they would have to get people online to defend their rep just like they would have to start making items with the quality and features people are asking for.

 

[Guest]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If leupie really wanted into the tactical market they would have to get people online to defend their rep just like they would have to start making items with the quality and features people are asking for. </div></div>
That was tried here awhile back,...it was not for the thin skinned. I'll give the guy this, he did make an effort, but it was like bringing a knife to a nuke fight. We are such a small % Leupold could care less.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

you know what they say, if the shoe fits. all i'm going to say is the "new updated illumination system" is a few months overdue and i'm still not sure when it will come out. i've shot and will continue to shoot lupy, but i think they are behind the times at this point, in several areas. i wish some guys would realize that their are other scopes on the market.

edit, the post is not aimed at anyone, but just a general observation

 

[Guest]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Opticsspecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> i wish some guys would realize that their are other scopes on the market.</div></div>

There are,... When buying glass, Burger-King it and only cry once.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

amen gunfighter

 

[Sapper524]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

I recently tried a VX7 Varmit LR Leupy out to see if all the Leupy complaints held water. $800 for a scope and the thing never held zero. Zero @ 100 - shoot 3 rounds - dial up - dial down the same - shoot 3 rounds - 1.5 inches off. Took it back, got a refund, bought another US Optics. I grew up hunting with older leupy 3-9s and they always got the job done. Maybe my equipment expectations have increased a lot due to my Military experience. I want equipment I can drop, kick, fall on, submerge, and still rely on. Not everyone NEEDS that. I think the statements about consumer education due to the internet are spot on. Ill keep buying USO until something changes drastically.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper524</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ill keep buying USO until something changes drastically.</div></div>
US Optics has had its fair share of Quality Control issues as well.
Both Leupold & USO are located in the US and offer outstanding customer service.

The main difference is that USO services a very small portion of the market and would be considered boutique.
They produce an overbuilt quality product in relatively low numbers and do all of it domestically with the exception of the glass.
Leupold on the other hand, has the capabilities to produce quantity of product that can drastically impact price and additionally meet the military contract requirement for manufacturing capabilities.

Leupold undoubtedly has a long way to come to reemerge as the "Standard" again.
It is truly a shame, because it would probably only take one new VP in charge of their Tactical Line to reshape their image.
Until then, as previously stated, the Mark 4 is the "Low End" of "High End" optics.

 

[summitsitter]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

IMHO they more of something that is out there the more problems that will be found in it. I'm not sure on the number of leupold scopes out there compared to say NF or USO, etc. but I'm sure it's a hell of alot more. There for more room for error. I beleive that there are other scope as good or better than the curretn Leupolds but you ahve to take into consideration the number of Leupolds bought and made each year..I'm betting if a ratio of bad scope to good scope could be established I'm pretty sure about 99% of them are good. Not standing up for Leupold here I just think most of it is an unfair comparison.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: summitsitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO they more of something that is out there the more problems that will be found in it. I'm not sure on the number of leupold scopes out there compared to say NF or USO, etc. but I'm sure it's a hell of alot more. There for more room for error. I beleive that there are other scope as good or better than the curretn Leupolds but you ahve to take into consideration the number of Leupolds bought and made each year..I'm betting if a ratio of bad scope to good scope could be established I'm pretty sure about 99% of them are good. Not standing up for Leupold here I just think most of it is an unfair comparison. </div></div>

Consider the context here.

Some of these folks are coming from LE and Military backgrounds. Situations where the optic HAS TO WORK. And they are regularly seeing 10-20% fail rates where they have to spend the first part of a given training class winnowing out which optics are broken. The problem is prevalent enough that these people are being given expensive optics as a component of their parts kit for just such replacement!

Not only that but the broken part isnt consistent. When you look for the root cause of a quality control problem, you try to narrow it down to a test or two that is failing consistently. That tells you that maybe a component is bad, or a particular stage in the process is missing things.

When you have some with a canted reticle, some with problems tracking, some that have inaccurate tracking, some with loose parts, you have now involved the reticle implementation, the turret assemblies, and who knows what else depending on what is loose. That indicates a general quality problem, not a single-scope fix in the assembly process.

I agree that when a manufacturer puts more product out there, even though the ratio is the same (or it could even be LESS), that is going to mean empirically more problem reports. However those who are in a contract position where they have to use Leupold are seeing these "high dollar" tactical optics have unacceptable error RATIOs, not COUNTs.

You then compound that with the sluggish technology adoption and the propensity to try and fit ANY new tactical offering under the "Mark 4" name such that there are actually several different LINES of "Mark 4" optics, and you see a company trying to exploit the one trusted brand, and it becomes to trust anything based on that brand anymore.

 

[summitsitter]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

I totally agree with the fact that if my LIFE depended on the scope doing what it was suppose to then I would choose something else. Can you put a price on your life. But that being said alot of the people on here are also no using the scope for anything other than slinging some bullets down the range.

 

[1luckeyt/a]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

You cant put a price on your life, but just because you have a top dollar optic does not mean it will not fail you when you need it most. I have seen quite a few S&B take a crap. 4 out of the 6 S&B scopes I have been issued have broke. 1 of those was my fault. I would still trust a proven S&B or Leupold, key word is proven. I have not had much experience with Leupolds except for a few M3As. They worked well for what we were using them for, and to my eye the glass was very good. It sucks to hear of QC slipping. They are pretty expensive for what you get. There are alot of them out there so I would expect to hear about more defects. It is kind of funny how made in America really technically means made in America ...mostly. Another play on words. Even if it means only assembled in America you are going to pay alot more for it. I hope that Leupold pulls their head out of their but and gets with the program. As for bring extra scopes to replace the broken ones, Sounds good to me crap breaks. It would of served well in place of the nightforce that would of "broke" that was on the XM3.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

To echo what 1LuckeyT/A said... even the best companies have their bad days, be they Leupold or USO or S&B. It's how the companies REACT to those problems that make or break the companies, IMHO.

When I got my M/O billet for the PD, I put a USO on my rifle at the recommendation of an old roommate who is a Sniper Instructor for 5th SF Grp. However, at my first training class at Blackwater, it failed. Coil-bound windage springs. Almost cost me my quals and graduation and M/O slot. I ended up borrowing a rifle and an NF scope and passed w. flying colors. But it was definitely not a good introduction to a highly-recommended scope company.

After the class, I sent the scope back to USO for repair and they were great. But, ultimatly, I didn't trust it even after repair. I ordered a Leupold Mk 4, 5-25 LR/T with Mil reticle. It shot very well and gave me no issues in regular quals.

A year later, I took another class with an operational SWAT group in the Charlotte area. My Leup performed admirably. It passed all the tracking and milling exercises -- dead on. But 20 percent of the Leupold Scopes in the class did NOT pass the class. I ended up doing well in the class with the Leup.

But, attending the class as a shooter was 'Doc' Mullins, East Coast USO rep who took a genuine interest in my earlier USO issues. He let me try out some USO scopes and went +way+ out of his way to rectify the issues I had with my first USO scope. The net result is that I am back to USO with a 5-25-TPAL (and two others I bought personally and now own)... not because my Leupold was bad. But because USO was so good in paying attention to me as a customer. They worked hard to bring me back into the fold.

To Leupold's credit... my classmates whose Leupold's had tracking/milling issues had their scopes replaced -- no problem and no pushback from Leup. So Leupold demonstrated solid support.

But I have rarely met a company that worked as hard to earn their quality and service reputation as USO. It's not just a quality piece of glass. Almost anyone can do that. IMHO, it's their owner care that sets them apart.

In short... don't bash Leupold. IMHO, they make great gear and I would be happy to use their scopes on my duty rifle and my hunting rifles all wear Leup's. I am also confident that they will deal with any problems that crop up. But for individual customer care, custom crafted scopes, personal attention and extreme attention to detail (all important to an LEO), I am a solid USO customer.

But I'll never 'bash' either company.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Dogtown]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

From the .mil side, the long standing gripe about Leupold was that they "just didn't get it," often giving us underwhelming optics and more importantly being slow to make corrections or take advice. Honestly, it felt like they cared more about hunters and LEO. I think their new CQBSS proves that they've finally come around in that regard

 

[Mute]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

I'll stop complaining about Leupold when they start to willingly fix scopes with canted reticles on their fricking dime. I had one that was canted enough to start causing my shots to have lateral dispersion pass 600 yard, yet not only would they not fix it because the canting was still "within specs" but they wouldn't even guarantee that it would be fixed properly even if I were willing to pay for it.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But I'll never 'bash' either company.
</div></div>

Wait, you said you saw a 20% fail rate on Leupolds in the class you took, but its 'bashing' to call out the quality issues?

Bashing would be if I were to come on here and say that the people who work for Leupold must be pig fuckers. Or if I were to rant on and on because a scope Leupy had already replaced for me and fixed 2 years ago means the whole bloody world should never look in Leupold's direction.

Thats not really the case here. I think you are seeing people say "hey, there is this problem. They have solid products. The prices are a little high and you dont really see it translating into features like other manufacturers have been doing. But really what you have to be careful of is the 10-20% failure rate witnessed in the tactical line and attested to by a number of instructors, LE, and military who have first hand experience."

Thats not bashing. Thats the unvarnished truth and its what you hope to see from people trying to make sure you know your options and the pros and cons of each.

 

[Northland]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll stop complaining about Leupold when they start to willingly fix scopes with canted reticles on their fricking dime. I had one that was canted enough to start causing my shots to have lateral dispersion pass 600 yard, yet not only would they not fix it because the canting was still "within specs" but they wouldn't even guarantee that it would be fixed properly even if I were willing to pay for it. </div></div>

Un-sat...

 

[Northland]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

Funny story, but true. Me and a few others were at the range the other day and had two of my rifles out there. One with a NF and one with a MK4. I told my wife to go shoot the "gun on that bench" with the Mk4 on it. Her reply was "No that scope sucks!"

That is a woman with Zero Mil/LE, gun knowledge, other that what I have told her. It was so much of a difference in the two scopes that a (Lack of better terms) 'know-nothing girl' could tell the difference...

 

[dareposte]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

I think about 10 years ago Leupolds were great scopes compared to what else was out there, especially for the money. The problem with them now is that they haven't improved over the past 10 years while the rest of the market has stepped up the game and is turning out really good products at better pricing. Leupold seems content to sit with what they've got and absorb whatever profit they can. And the slacking customer service doesn't help them either.

I think there's no time in the history of the known universe when you could buy more scope for less money than today. But Leupold's not the choice in my book for that scope any more.

 

[battson]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

Leupold (Mk 4) are more than adequate for any job any rifle needs to do today. Military, civilian, reacreational, or otherwise... Any scope better than a Mk4 (roughly speaking) is just flashy for the sake of being flashy (but be assured some others are better)!

But with that said; if everyone spent a bit more time using their optics, and less time talking about them (myself included) and how their's is better than the next guy's, then we would all be better marksmen for our trouble.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunterkiwi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leupold (Mk 4) are more than adequate for any job any rifle needs to do today. Military, civilian, reacreational, or otherwise...
</div></div>

I think the point is not so much PRIMARILY an assessment of the quality of the scopes but rather if people are being hard on leupold such that its really "bashing" them or if the quality problems have sunken to a level where the feedback you see in places like this forum is warranted.

I think when you take a statement like the above and have to add a caveat "so long as you have one of the 80% that work out of the box", the quality gap there is large enough as to represent a brand-impacting problem.

I guess the whole thread really is: is it bashing or is it honest feedback?

When even those who are saying that they would be careful "bashing" leupold are admitting that they have personally been in situations where they have seen 20% failure rates, i think that says something.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

I still think though dated the m3,m1 10x 16x are great scopes.All the variable mk4s ( Originally varix 3 tacticals with a name change)were never more then hunting scopes with the mk4 name. I hope they get their head back in the game.

 

[Cheetah]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

While I love my VX-III for hunting, I'm definitely getting away from Leupold. I contacted them from Iraq to try to order battery caps for our Mk4's that were on all of our Mk12's. I asked for a price and who to contact to order a handful of them because they always seemed to get lost. Their rep responded to me saying that they wouldn't ship to APO/FPO addresses because of export taxes, sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Didn't even include a price list. I would've ordered them and had them shipped to my folks' house and had them forward them over if that's what I had to do, supply system wasn't even trying to get us the gear we needed.

In comparison, I contacted at least five other companies to get my hands on parts/accessories for our Mk12's that were pretty heavily neglected when we got to them, each of the other companies (MilDot, Possum Hollow, JP Enterprises, Butler Creek, some company that makes fiberglass cleaning rods, and Otis) were all eager to help, at the very least provided heavy discounts, Possum Hollow sent me a box full of their bore guides for Mk11's and Mk12's free, Mildot sent about ten free Mildot Masters, etc.

Seeing the complete "fuck you, we don't care about your issues overseas" attitude Leupold took with me, they pretty much guaranteed to never see my money again.

 

[cal50]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Northland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny story, but true. Me and a few others were at the range the other day and had two of my rifles out there. One with a NF and one with a MK4. I told my wife to go shoot the "gun on that bench" with the Mk4 on it. Her reply was "No that scope sucks!"

That is a woman with Zero Mil/LE, gun knowledge, other that what I have told her. It was so much of a difference in the two scopes that a (Lack of better terms) 'know-nothing girl' could tell the difference... </div></div>




That is an interesting statement ("No that scope sucks!"). The link in your signature
http://www.suareztacticalrifles.com/process/
goes to a tactical rifle builder and a quote from their web site:

High quality optics are of the most importance in a precision rifle, and that is why we offer only the very best on our rifles. For our tactical rifles we recommend Leupold, Night Force, US Optics, Schmidt & Bender


If it "sucks" so bad why is it one of the first optics offered for a tactical rifle build?

 

[AK10mm]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cal50</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Northland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny story, but true. Me and a few others were at the range the other day and had two of my rifles out there. One with a NF and one with a MK4. I told my wife to go shoot the "gun on that bench" with the Mk4 on it. Her reply was "No that scope sucks!"

That is a woman with Zero Mil/LE, gun knowledge, other that what I have told her. It was so much of a difference in the two scopes that a (Lack of better terms) 'know-nothing girl' could tell the difference... </div></div>




That is an interesting statement ("No that scope sucks!"). The link in your signature
http://www.suareztacticalrifles.com/process/
goes to a tactical rifle builder and a quote from their web site:

High quality optics are of the most importance in a precision rifle, and that is why we offer only the very best on our rifles. For our tactical rifles we recommend Leupold, Night Force, US Optics, Schmidt & Bender


If it "sucks" so bad why is it one of the first optics offered for a tactical rifle build? </div></div>

OUCH !!! Busted !

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

We tried to get in MKIV's for use on SPRs in southern sandbox back in 2006. Not only did they make us wait until they got a DoS export permit...but then they sent the wrong scopes, all with incorrect and canted reticles (we're talking 7+ degrees of cant here). We sent them back and they sent back replacements, with canted reticles - and the one I used for about 5 mins before realising it wouldn't track properly had a bit of reticle wire migrate into the lower RH quadrant.

One experience like that when your arse relies on your equipment being up to speed. Never again. Needless to say, it was goodbye Leupold MKIV, hello S&B short dot..

 

[cal50]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cal50</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Northland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny story, but true. Me and a few others were at the range the other day and had two of my rifles out there. One with a NF and one with a MK4. I told my wife to go shoot the "gun on that bench" with the Mk4 on it. Her reply was "No that scope sucks!"

That is a woman with Zero Mil/LE, gun knowledge, other that what I have told her. It was so much of a difference in the two scopes that a (Lack of better terms) 'know-nothing girl' could tell the difference... </div></div>




That is an interesting statement ("No that scope sucks!"). The link in your signature
http://www.suareztacticalrifles.com/process/
goes to a tactical rifle builder and a quote from their web site:

High quality optics are of the most importance in a precision rifle, and that is why we offer only the very best on our rifles. For our tactical rifles we recommend Leupold, Night Force, US Optics, Schmidt & Bender


If it "sucks" so bad why is it one of the first optics offered for a tactical rifle build? </div></div>

OUCH !!! Busted ! </div></div>






Kind of,maybe,sort of~

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I have no issue with that. What irks me is really dumb or subjective statements not based on fact. I find a little irony in posting a statement of that sort with a link to a builder that obviously has a different view or opinion.

I have read a LOT of problems and several can be categorized into different levels. Some are cosmetic issues of reticules not square. Some are mechanical such as not holding zero or repeatability problems. The most extreme would be total failure which has not been cited as often. No excuse for any and Leupold is clearly at fault for these.

Be clear I am not a cheerleader for Leupold and if there are this many problems occurring then Leupold should take it seriously and either address the issues or not compete in the market segment.

OT but Toyota was touted as "the best" for many years for quality. The problem is as they expanded and fielded more units produced they lost focus of quality. I think Leupold has gone down that same road to a degree. They have lost focus and their quality PPM take a hit.

 

[ORD]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cal50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read a LOT of problems and several can be categorized into different levels. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Some are cosmetic issues of reticules not square.</span></span> Some are mechanical such as not holding zero or repeatability problems. The most extreme would be total failure which has not been cited as often. No excuse for any and Leupold is clearly at fault for these.
</div></div>

I've got news for you...A CANTED RETICLE IS <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span></span></span> MERELY A COSMETIC ISSUE!! It is a serious mechanical problem with the scope that impacts ranging, holdover, etc., etc. So, with all due respect, your categorization of the problems is less than accurate.

When a reticle is canted, or you can't hold zero or the scope isn't repeatable, then you'd might as well consider it a "total failure" as you call it unless, as some people clearly are, you are running the scope from a bench on the range on sunny afternoons and it amounts to a mere inconvenience while customer service fixes a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place. When lives are on the line, these kinds of problems are more than a little inconvenient or annoying...they are life-threatening. While not equating it to life-threatening, even those who use the scopes for hunting can be adversely effected by these sorts of things. You miss your prize trophy buck or elk or __________ (fill in the blank) and screw up an otherwise great hunt.

Again, I agree with you that problems in the manufacturing process happen. Even with the best companies in the world, sometimes things slip through the cracks. Leupold is no exception and is entitled to "the benefit of the doubt" to a certain degree...but not to the extent that an intelligent discussion of repeated, serious QC and reliability issues with their products can be considered "bashing" by any means.

 

[cal50]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

To clarify my thought was if your turrets are aligned and track true and your reticule if off radially it can be dealt with.

If you align your reticule and your turrets are off axis that is another problem and will have induced error.


I cant the rifle when I shoot service rifle and dial in my windage correction for the cant. I always try to square up my optics by the turrets then shoot a box grid and look for error.

My apology if I used the wrong terminology.

 

[Vindex]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

To Frank's point, we are much better informed today about many things than in the past. Leupold came into its own during a time when there were few other real options out there. Which brings up a second point - in addition to better intell, we now also have many, many more choices.

Back in the days before Al Gore invented the internet, one's choice of optics was highly influenced by local retailers. Those same retailers were courted heavily by vendors who knew that their efforts in bussying up with the retailiers would generate glowing recommendaitons.

As for other scopes being better for tactical applications while Leupold is preferred for hunting, my own view is that those uses are not all that different. Of course, that depends on how you hunt.

I have two Leupold scopes - one on a Ruger 10/22 I bought with the scope and the other an LPS. The LPS was a model they were selling hard, and having one of the early versions, it was well done.

For hunting, I use mostly Swarovski. Those were not available when Leupold was making its bones, but they are, at least for me, the hunting scope of choice. What they lack are the tactical reticles and adjustments, but for hunting they are great.

You need the same reliability in a hunting scope. Those once in a lifetime shots tend to come only once in a lifetime, and having your equipment taking a dump then and there is a missed opportunity, of a lifetime.

On the tactical side, it is primarily Nightforce (2000-2002 vintage), USO and an S&B.

When a company gets to the point where it coasts based on its past reputation, that is the point you might want to find another option. All you do by resting on your laurels is get splinters in your ass. A company that starts having quality issues has a bad case of splinters.

There is always a way to improve and make things better, especially with technological leaps. Most of us are judged not by what we have done in the past (that might get you in the door) but by what we have contributed today. And many of us know all too well that while it is a tough climb to the top, it is even tougher to stay there. We all have competition, whether it wears a three piece suit or a turban. You loose your edge in the "product" you deliver, you loose, period.

Give me the guys who hold themselves to the same stardards to which I hold myself.

 

[BCP]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dareposte</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think about 10 years ago Leupolds were great scopes compared to what else was out there, especially for the money. The problem with them now is that they haven't improved over the past 10 years while the rest of the market has stepped up the game and is turning out really good products at better pricing. Leupold seems content to sit with what they've got and absorb whatever profit they can. And the slacking customer service doesn't help them either.
</div></div>

Well, their M5 stuff seems competitively priced more or less but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: Leupold bashing: is it trendy?

I was happy with my Mk4 for a long time. It worked well, held up to two rifles and thousands of rounds a year. When I got my NF and mounted it I knew it was a step up.

I'm spoiled now and only interested in NF, USO, S&B, PH or Hensoldt