Liberty Optics Still Legit?

[sneakypayload]

I just want to give a shout-out to @

Scott got me too. I reached out to Shamus at Vortex and their customer service is truly unbelievable. Above and beyond anything i could have expected. The way they handled this situation that wasn't even their problem it outstanding. God i love Vortex. Got a Razor 6-36 coming my way.

same. Reached out to him today and got squared away. I already owned 2 6-36s and love them. The fact that they are covering down for people impacted by this Asshole is awesome.

 

[FOHA1]

Anyone o you old fucks recognize the nod?

I figure there must be more than a few of us PBB refugees here.

 

[Mahaffey82]

Good Afternoon Folks,



Morning Sir, i obviously don't know you but would love for you to take a trip to Vortex and see what our company is all about. We truly put a ton into R&D and working closely with all our partners to make the best product possible. We are far from perfect but always wanting to get better.
I have been fortunate to be here since the very beginning and watch our company evolve each year. I would personally be happy to pay out of my pocket to show you what i am so proud of. We have a beautiful campus and you can see under the hood of every dept and meet the people that actually make this place special. I am friends with many of other manufactures/competitors and they make great products. But our company as a whole is unique and we have a shared fate with our customers. I hope you reach out and make the trip.
Shamus Terry
608-335-4486

I called Shamus Tuesday night and ordered a pair of Razor UHD 18x56s. They just showed up at my door and I'm looking forward to getting some time behind them this weekend.
If you're still in the market for whatever Scott owes you, call Shamus and he'll take care of you!

 

[B Man]

It’s amazing someone with a great 20 year record of sales has shit on folks like this, I could only hope something different comes to light in the end. Still in disbelief, but my wife says I always look for the good in folks to much, probably right. Regardless of him, I just have to say it’s amazing what vortex has done to step in and clean up the mess they didn’t make. I started using their optics almost 15 years ago and see the reason to keep using them. Thank y’all for taking care of your customers!

 

[DocRDS]

Good Afternoon Folks,



Morning Sir, i obviously don't know you but would love for you to take a trip to Vortex and see what our company is all about. We truly put a ton into R&D and working closely with all our partners to make the best product possible. We are far from perfect but always wanting to get better.
I have been fortunate to be here since the very beginning and watch our company evolve each year. I would personally be happy to pay out of my pocket to show you what i am so proud of. We have a beautiful campus and you can see under the hood of every dept and meet the people that actually make this place special. I am friends with many of other manufactures/competitors and they make great products. But our company as a whole is unique and we have a shared fate with our customers. I hope you reach out and make the trip.
Shamus Terry
608-335-4486

 

[LoCal247]

It wasn't his company and he basically robbed the owners who put their money into reimbursing everyone who was scammed to include themselves. It was an entirely painful shitshow to watch on Theis's side(can't remember his real name). The owners, investors of that company like Vortex showed that they are a class act and made people whole at their own expense.
This is just the cliff notes on a long and painful drama.

Louis the Louisiana shitbird

 

[Yumago]

Hopefully mine ships soon. Paid Vortex on Wednesday, and haven't heard anything sense.

Really looking forward to getting this for my long range build.

 

[Evintos]

Hopefully mine ships soon. Paid Vortex on Wednesday, and haven't heard anything sense.

Really looking forward to getting this for my long range build.

If you haven't already signed up for UPS account (it's free), you should do so, I recommend it. More detailed tracking history and you get notification of any shipment label generated that is associated with your name and address. Fedex and USPS also has a similar system.

 

[Yumago]

Yeah I'm signed up for all of them. Just checked and my card shows the charge still pending also

 

[fdkay]

Yeah I'm signed up for all of them. Just checked and my card shows the charge still pending also

It's Saturday afternoon. Most banks close after noon.

 

[Yumago]

Actually it just showed up today to my surprise!

 

[lash]

Actually it just showed up today to my surprise!

The scope or the CC refund?

 

[koshkin]

Good Afternoon Folks,



Morning Sir, i obviously don't know you but would love for you to take a trip to Vortex and see what our company is all about. We truly put a ton into R&D and working closely with all our partners to make the best product possible. We are far from perfect but always wanting to get better.
I have been fortunate to be here since the very beginning and watch our company evolve each year. I would personally be happy to pay out of my pocket to show you what i am so proud of. We have a beautiful campus and you can see under the hood of every dept and meet the people that actually make this place special. I am friends with many of other manufactures/competitors and they make great products. But our company as a whole is unique and we have a shared fate with our customers. I hope you reach out and make the trip.
Shamus Terry
608-335-4486

Shamus,
Neither Vortex, nor you personally, at this stage, have anything to prove. If this thread has not convinced anyone with a brain how strong Vortex' commitment to their customers is, there really is nothing else you can do.
I have watched Vortex grow for the last twenty years from a small startup to what it is today. A lot has evolved. Methods, products, practices etc Vortex' company values have not. It is almost unheard of for a company to go through so much growth without forgetting what's important, yet Vortex somehow pulled it off.
Chances are that aside from Vortex employees, I have seen more of your products than pretty much anyone. Whenever I wanted to look at something, your team was remarkably accommodating. A little while back, I remember I was visiting and had a question about consistency of the turret feel on one of the Razor scopes. Your guys let me loose on a cart that had about a hundred scopes. With no adult supervision. Never seen anything like it anywhere else.
ILya

 

[Yumago]

Scope, weirdly never got a UPS notification

 

[FuhQ]

Why did you have to post that? I figured it is just another colloquial then I do not know and looked it up. How do I erase the mental image of this? There is not enough bourbon in the world...

ILya

Don't lookup "Blumpkin" either...

 

[Glitterball]

Looks like I got pinched too. Ordered a Burris XTR in early August which I did receive in about 3 weeks, but I also ordered a pair of Fury ABs a day later and they never showed. I was in contact with Scott via email on 10/11, and he said the order would be shipping within the next week. I hopped on the Hide yesterday to check the Liberty Optics thread for any general news and delivery chatter and found out about this whole shitshow.

I just exchanged emails with Shamus who confirmed that Vortex had my order but no payment. I was able to initiate a dispute with my cc company (72 days from the transaction date), and they are issuing a conditional refund while they investigate. Presumably the investigation will consist of them reaching out to Scott for his side of the story. Given that they are unlikely to receive any response, I’m hopeful that the dispute will shake out in my favor.

In the meantime, I’m working with Shamus and the Vortex team to get squared away. It’s already been said multiple times, but Vortex is really going out of their way to do as right as they can by all of us that got caught up in this mess. The fact that they consider anyone who purchased a Vortex product to be their customer (regardless of the vendor it was purchased through) says a lot about who they are as a company.

I obviously don’t blame myself for what has happened, but I’m sure I’ll be a bit more cautious in the future - regardless of someone’s reputation. As another member so succinctly put it, people are trustworthy until they aren’t.

 

[lash]

I barely missed being burned by both SWA and LO. Maybe I should sit number three out.

 

[FuhQ]

I barely missed being burned by both SWA and LO. Maybe I should sit number three out.

Just order from EuroOptic, and you'll be alright.

 

[Kiba]

Just order from EuroOptic, and you'll be alright.

Unless he calls and their new sales associate Bott Scerish picks up the phone; while he sounds like a pretty good dude on the phone, the way he speaks with a hint of a eastern European accent and constantly twirls his little mustache and acts all shifty eyed while on a video conference call makes me a little suspicious.

I think he's trustworthy enough for a 90-120 day prepaid backorder though.

 

[FuhQ]

Unless he calls and their new sales associate Bott Scerish picks up the phone; while he sounds like a pretty good dude on the phone, the way he speaks with a hint of a eastern European accent and constantly twirls his little mustache and acts all shifty eyed while on a video conference call makes me a little suspicious.

I think he's trustworthy enough for a 90-120 day prepaid backorder though.

Well, they sound like yanks and have a PA accent... But they've taken lots of my money, and always sent a product in return for it...VERY QUICKLY I might add.

Fixing to order a thermal from them in the next couple weeks. For real though, if I order something before about 2pm CST, it ships THAT DAY. It's crazy how on the ball they are. I have lots of respect for those guys. They're the only ones I buy optics from (as long as they carry the particular item that I'm looking for).

 

[Kiba]

Euro is good people for sure.

I've purchased several S&B 5-25s there and purchased 3x vortex LHT 4.5-22s from them during their memorial day sale this year, about a week before Scott announced his matching sale... While I initially felt bad about not waiting a couple days to give Scott the business (and also not having to pay sales tax) turns out I probably dodged a bullet as if I ordered everything from Scott I'd very likely be out the money for 3x LHTs in addition to the money I'm already out for the 2x razor G3's I did order from Scott.

If I had just ordered everything from Euro Optic at once, I might have had to pay sales tax but I would have had all the scopes in 2 or 3 days. This may in fact be the one time I regret not paying sales tax...

 

[Emerson0311]

Despite internet memes and liberal lies to the contrary, you probably won't find a more law abiding group and also a group less prone to violence.

It’s a question of cost and benefit. The more a guy DGAF about many things, the simpler the calculations.

 

[Emerson0311]

I agree that this group, like most true firearms enthusiast, are very much law abiding folks who would look to violence as the very last resort, and even then, for something like this where its not life or death, I highly doubt anyone would take it there.

But this group is very savvy and will use every legal means there is to try and get people what they are owed.

Or just make life complicated for a guy that needs a commupance.

 

[CMP70306]

Well, they sound like yanks and have a PA accent... But they've taken lots of my money, and always sent a product in return for it...VERY QUICKLY I might add.

Fixing to order a thermal from them in the next couple weeks. For real though, if I order something before about 2pm CST, it ships THAT DAY. It's crazy how on the ball they are. I have lots of respect for those guys. They're the only ones I buy optics from (as long as they carry the particular item that I'm looking for).

I ordered my original Gen 2 Razor from them or got deals at the outdoor show in Harrisburg but usually passed over them due to PA sales tax. Now that most places charge tax regardless of location and LO is down I’ll probably go back to ordering through them.

 

[FuhQ]

I ordered my original Gen 2 Razor from them or got deals at the outdoor show in Harrisburg but usually passed over them due to PA sales tax. Now that most places charge tax regardless of location and LO is down I’ll probably go back to ordering through them.

Yeah, Alabama started doing that online tax shit a few years back...

#TaxationIsTheft

 

[LuvDog]

The very first Vortex scope I bought I bought them from EO. I'll always look at their site to check on prices. Great folks there and also fantastic customer service.

I hate paying sales tax for online orders though, but EO is most likely my go to place now for all future orders.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Just order from EuroOptic Optics Planet, and you'll be alright.

Fixed it

 

[R_A_W]

I figure there must be more than a few of us PBB refugees here.

Pirate?

 

[FuhQ]

Fixed it

You'll be ok if you're fine with them losing your order in the warehouse and never shipping it after charging you for it... So 2 months later you have to call them, cancel it, and get a refund so you can immediately order it from Midway (where I should have bought from in the first place) and have it in 2 days... True story. Another incident, It took them over 6 months for them to ship me a Phase5 Tactical single-point sling...That was supposedly "in stock" when I bought it.

Lesson learned, I'll never buy from Optics Planet again.

 

[Terp]

Just order from EuroOptic, and you'll be alright.

They love selling open box Vortex Razors as new. I wish Vortex would reign this practice in.

 

[FuhQ]

They love selling open box Vortex Razors as new. I wish Vortex would reign this practice in.

Just because something is open box doesn't mean it's not new... As long as it's never been mounted and demo'd then it's still technically brand new...Just opened packaging. As long as this is the case, and as long as the full new-purchase warranty for said product is still in tact, I'm cool with it. But I agree, that they should at least tell people "New - Other (Open Box)" condition.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

of all scopes to buy open box or used, a vortex product is the one i care the least about.

 

[LoCal247]

Looks like people are going off topic to get the thread locked? Otherwise why all the side crap.

 

[Evintos]

I prefer the off topic posts over the attempts at shit stirring and trolling, but that's just me, and I'm no moderator. It at least keeps the thread at the top of this section of the forum for visibility purposes. I think someone just found out about this yesterday.

At this point in time, although I think most people are aware of the situation and has filed for a credit dispute/chargeback and contacted Vortex, there could be some infrequent visitors/users left that aren't aware and I think visibility is important to make sure they don't get screwed.

Many of us are now in a state of limbo while our credit card companies or bank conduct their investigation which could take upwards to 90 days (if not longer). I myself will be providing updates (if any) as the investigation progresses but at the moment I have no update.

As far as research I've conducted, in case there is a requirement to go the next step to potentially receive restitution, the main ones are file a report with the Montana DOJ Office of Consumer Protection, realize that Montana Supreme Court ruled that individuals of an LLC can be held individually liable for tortious or criminal conduct, the dissolution of the LLC or the existence of an LLC does not shield individuals from the ramifications of tortious or criminal conduct and any claims that are resultant from such conduct, and there could be other legal precedent in the state of Montana that would bolster the chances.

One of my hopes is that many of us are made whole financially (after the investigations) and can provide enough evidence for others whose financial institutions, unfortunately, are unwilling to even begin investigation to the fraud (due to arbitrary set time limits), to reconsider. Ultimately, I'd like to see everyone be made whole financially (except Scott Berish, fuck him).

 

[LoCal247]

I prefer the off topic posts over the attempts at shit stirring and trolling, but that's just me, and I'm no moderator. It at least keeps the thread at the top of this section of the forum for visibility purposes. I think someone just found out about this yesterday.

At this point in time, although I think most people are aware of the situation and has filed for a credit dispute/chargeback and contacted Vortex, there could be some infrequent visitors/users left that aren't aware and I think visibility is important to make sure they don't get screwed.

Many of us are now in a state of limbo while our credit card companies or bank conduct their investigation which could take upwards to 90 days (if not longer). I myself will be providing updates (if any) as the investigation progresses but at the moment I have no update.

As far as research I've conducted, in case there is a requirement to go the next step to potentially receive restitution, the main ones are file a report with the Montana DOJ Office of Consumer Protection, realize that Montana Supreme Court ruled that individuals of an LLC can be held individually liable for tortious or criminal conduct, the dissolution of the LLC or the existence of an LLC does not shield individuals from the ramifications of tortious or criminal conduct and any claims that are resultant from such conduct, and there could be other legal precedent in the state of Montana that would bolster the chances.

One of my hopes is that many of us are made whole financially (after the investigations) and can provide enough evidence for others whose financial institutions, unfortunately, are unwilling to even begin investigation to the fraud (due to arbitrary set time limits), to reconsider. Ultimately, I'd like to see everyone be made whole financially (except Scott Berish, fuck him).

Haha so you agree

 

[Kiba]

I prefer the off topic posts over the attempts at shit stirring and trolling, but that's just me, and I'm no moderator. It at least keeps the thread at the top of this section of the forum for visibility purposes. I think someone just found out about this yesterday.

At this point in time, although I think most people are aware of the situation and has filed for a credit dispute/chargeback and contacted Vortex, there could be some infrequent visitors/users left that aren't aware and I think visibility is important to make sure they don't get screwed.

Many of us are now in a state of limbo while our credit card companies or bank conduct their investigation which could take upwards to 90 days (if not longer). I myself will be providing updates (if any) as the investigation progresses but at the moment I have no update.

As far as research I've conducted, in case there is a requirement to go the next step to potentially receive restitution, the main ones are file a report with the Montana DOJ Office of Consumer Protection, realize that Montana Supreme Court ruled that individuals of an LLC can be held individually liable for tortious or criminal conduct, the dissolution of the LLC or the existence of an LLC does not shield individuals from the ramifications of tortious or criminal conduct and any claims that are resultant from such conduct, and there could be other legal precedent in the state of Montana that would bolster the chances.

One of my hopes is that many of us are made whole financially (after the investigations) and can provide enough evidence for others whose financial institutions, unfortunately, are unwilling to even begin investigation to the fraud (due to arbitrary set time limits), to reconsider. Ultimately, I'd like to see everyone be made whole financially (except Scott Berish, fuck him).

The flathead county sheriff's deputy I talked with Friday said this is probably going to end up a civil matter, so if you don't get a refund from your credit card company you will likely have to file a civil case in court. In the likely event Scott can't be found and served with a summons or doesn't show up and you get a default judgement, there's still a matter of collections... But if he ends up getting a job somewhere else they could attach his wages.

Unless he skipped to Costa Rica or something.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

The flathead county sheriff's deputy I talked with Friday said this is probably going to end up a civil matter, so if you don't get a refund from your credit card company you will likely have to file a civil case in court. In the likely event Scott can't be found and served with a summons or doesn't show up and you get a default judgement, there's still a matter of collections... But if he ends up getting a job somewhere else they could attach his wages.

Unless he skipped to Costa Rica or something.

It's definitely fraud. Especially when there's messages of him telling customers it was ordered, and he wasn't sure why it hadn't shipped combined with Vortex records it was never paid for. There is 20 years of history of him drop shipping and paying for the optics. So it's pretty clear when he stopped doing that, despite telling customers he was looking into why.

The trick is being able to find an agency/dept/investigator/prosector who isn't busy with larger fraud and such.

And then there's convincing a jury that he actually meant to defraud and wasn't just in bad financial situation trying to stay afloat.

 

[stanley_white]

This comes to mind…

18 U.S. Code Chapter 63 - MAIL FRAUD AND OTHER FRAUD OFFENSES

www.law.cornell.edu

More specifically, this:

18 U.S. Code § 1343 - Fraud by wire, radio, or television

www.law.cornell.edu

Where the 1811s at?

-Stan

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

This comes to mind…

18 U.S. Code Chapter 63 - MAIL FRAUD AND OTHER FRAUD OFFENSES

www.law.cornell.edu

More specifically, this:

18 U.S. Code § 1343 - Fraud by wire, radio, or television

www.law.cornell.edu

Where the 1811s at?

-Stan

Unfortunately, dealing with bigger fraud (the ones who deal in fraud....the rest are doing other criminal investigations)

 

[Evintos]

It's definitely fraud. Especially when there's messages of him telling customers it was ordered, and he wasn't sure why it hadn't shipped combined with Vortex records it was never paid for. There is 20 years of history of him drop shipping and paying for the optics. So it's pretty clear when he stopped doing that, despite telling customers he was looking into why.

The trick is being able to find an agency/dept/investigator/prosector who isn't busy with larger fraud and such.

And then there's convincing a jury that he actually meant to defraud and wasn't just in bad financial situation trying to stay afloat.

My assumption on a criminal investigation being opened also would depend on the existence of victims or permanent harm being done to anyone filing a criminal complaint and that if our financial institutions reimbursed us, that would disqualify us. I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Edit - Or anyone's thoughts on this.

 

[Belton 45]

I’ve been running through my head how they can deny a chargeback with the current situation. Im sure they will find a way. I sure hope not.

 

[Kiba]

I’ve been running through my head how they can deny a chargeback with the current situation. Im sure they will find a way. I sure hope not.

Some people on here are out their money because their cards only allow disputing a charge for 2 billing cycles. Those people are screwed by policy.

For the others, the credit card company investigators will probably not be about to get a hold of Scott, so hopefully between being unable to contact the merchant in addition to Vortex confirming the orders were never paid for means you'll get a chargeback.

Chargebacks can be denied when the merchant can prove to the credit card company investigators that the product was delivered as promised and the wrong doing was on the customer's side.

 

[Belton 45]

Some people on here are out their money because their cards only allow disputing a charge for 2 billing cycles. Those people are screwed by policy.

For the others, the credit card company investigators will probably not be about to get a hold of Scott, so hopefully between being unable to contact the merchant in addition to Vortex confirming the orders were never paid for means you'll get a chargeback.

Chargebacks can be denied when the merchant can prove to the credit card company investigators that the product was delivered as promised and the wrong doing was on the customer's side.

Ordered on 9/9 and submitted chargeback last week. So I should be ok on the timeline wise.

 

[fdkay]

My assumption on a criminal investigation being opened also would depend on the existence of victims or permanent harm being done to anyone filing a criminal complaint and that if our financial institutions reimbursed us, that would disqualify us. I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Edit - Or anyone's thoughts on this.

The most applicable penal code violation is probably "Deceptive Practices".
Whether or not you are reimbursed, the offense was still committed.
What matters is Whether or not the prosecutor is willing to move forward with it.
They may reassign the victim as the financial institution, those institutions, typically, don't want to be bothered with it.
A criminal case has no bearing on a civil case, both can be brought.
A civil case is usually faster, and the level of proof is far lower.
A criminal case requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
A civil case is decided on the preponderance of evidence.

 

[R_A_W]

The most applicable penal code violation is probably "Deceptive Practices".

Most applicable? nope

 

[fdkay]

Most applicable? nope

I'm not privy to the entire Wyoming penal code. Enlighten me.
I also said "probably", not absolute

 

[Norinco982lover]

I’m a cop, not in Montana. You certainly can get a district attorney to pursue this if it’s a big enough case for him to be interested.

As another user stated, it’s theft. Whatever Montana’s version of theft by deception.

Even if you get your money back with visa protection it’s still theft. The victim has just moved from you to the credit card company and it will be up to them to pursue it.

 

[Evintos]

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0450/chapter_0060/part_0030/section_0010/0450-0060-0030-0010.html

Spoiler: Montana Code Annotated 2021 TITLE 45. CRIMES CHAPTER 6. OFFENSES AGAINST PROPERTY Part 3. Theft and Related Offenses Theft

45-6-301. Theft. (1) A person commits the offense of theft when the person purposely or knowingly obtains or exerts unauthorized control over property of the owner and:
(a) has the purpose of depriving the owner of the property;
(b) purposely or knowingly uses, conceals, or abandons the property in a manner that deprives the owner of the property; or
(c) uses, conceals, or abandons the property knowing that the use, concealment, or abandonment probably will deprive the owner of the property.
(2) A person commits the offense of theft when the person purposely or knowingly obtains by threat or deception control over property of the owner and:
(a) has the purpose of depriving the owner of the property;
(b) purposely or knowingly uses, conceals, or abandons the property in a manner that deprives the owner of the property; or
(c) uses, conceals, or abandons the property knowing that the use, concealment, or abandonment probably will deprive the owner of the property.
(3) A person commits the offense of theft when the person purposely or knowingly obtains control over stolen property knowing the property to have been stolen by another and:
(a) has the purpose of depriving the owner of the property;
(b) purposely or knowingly uses, conceals, or abandons the property in a manner that deprives the owner of the property; or
(c) uses, conceals, or abandons the property knowing that the use, concealment, or abandonment probably will deprive the owner of the property.
(4) A person commits the offense of theft when the person purposely or knowingly obtains or exerts unauthorized control over any part of any public assistance provided under Title 52 or 53 by a state or county agency, regardless of the original source of assistance, by means of:
(a) a knowingly false statement, representation, or impersonation; or
(b) a fraudulent scheme or device.
(5) A person commits the offense of theft when the person purposely or knowingly obtains or exerts or helps another obtain or exert unauthorized control over any part of any benefits provided under Title 39, chapter 71, by means of:
(a) a knowingly false statement, representation, or impersonation; or
(b) deception or other fraudulent action.
(6) A person commits the offense of theft of property by embezzlement when, with the purpose to deprive the owner of the property, the person:
(a) purposely or knowingly obtains or exerts unauthorized control over property of the person's employer or over property entrusted to the person; or
(b) purposely or knowingly obtains by deception control over property of the person's employer or over property entrusted to the person.
(7) (a) Except as provided in subsections (7)(b) and (7)(d), a person convicted of a first offense of the offense of theft of property not exceeding $1,500 in value shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500. A person convicted of a second offense shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both. A person convicted of a third or subsequent offense shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500 and be imprisoned in the county jail for a term of not less than 5 days or more than 1 year.
(b) (i) Except as provided in subsection (7)(c), a person convicted of the offense of theft of property that exceeds $1,500 in value and does not exceed $5,000 in value shall be fined an amount not to exceed $1,500 or be imprisoned in the state prison for a term not to exceed 3 years, or both. A person convicted of a second offense shall be fined an amount not to exceed $1,500 or be imprisoned in the state prison for a term not to exceed 5 years, or both. A person convicted of a third or subsequent offense shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a term of not less than 2 years or more than 5 years and may be fined an amount not to exceed $5,000.
(ii) A person convicted of the theft of property exceeding $5,000 in value or as part of a common scheme as defined in 45-2-101, or the theft of any amount of anhydrous ammonia for the purpose of manufacturing dangerous drugs, shall be fined an amount not to exceed $10,000 or be imprisoned in a state prison for a term not to exceed 10 years, or both.
(iii) A person convicted of the theft of any commonly domesticated hoofed animal shall be fined an amount of not less than $5,000 or more than $50,000 or be imprisoned in a state prison for a term not to exceed 10 years, or both. If a prison term is deferred, the court shall order the offender to perform 416 hours of community service during a 1-year period, in the offender's county of residence. In addition to the fine and imprisonment, the offender's property is subject to criminal forfeiture pursuant to 45-6-328 and 45-6-329.
(c) A person convicted of the offense of theft of property exceeding $10,000 in value by embezzlement shall be imprisoned in a state prison for a term of not less than 1 year or more than 10 years and may be fined an amount not to exceed $50,000. The court may, in its discretion, place the person on probation with the requirement that restitution be made under terms set by the court. If the terms are not met, the required prison term may be ordered.
(d) A person convicted of a first offense for the offense of theft of property not exceeding $1,500 in value and who utilized an emergency exit in furtherance of that offense shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both. On a second conviction, the offender shall be fined an amount not to exceed $1,000 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 1 year, or both. On a third conviction, the offender shall be fined an amount not to exceed $5,000 and be imprisoned in the county jail for a term of not less than 5 days or more than 1 year.
(8) Amounts involved in thefts committed pursuant to a common scheme or the same transaction, whether from the same person or several persons, may be aggregated in determining the value of the property.
(9) A person convicted of the offense of theft of property not exceeding $100 in value is presumed to qualify for a deferred imposition of sentence as long as the person has not been convicted of a misdemeanor or felony offense in the past 5 years.
History: En. 94-6-302 by Sec. 1, Ch. 513, L. 1973; amd. Sec. 22, Ch. 359, L. 1977; R.C.M. 1947, 94-6-302; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 374, L. 1979; amd. Sec. 7, Ch. 198, L. 1981; amd. Sec. 2, Ch. 581, L. 1983; amd. Sec. 21, Ch. 670, L. 1985; amd. Sec. 65, Ch. 464, L. 1987; amd. Sec. 2, Ch. 739, L. 1991; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 190, L. 1993; amd. Sec. 3, Ch. 616, L. 1993; amd. Sec. 2, Ch. 618, L. 1993; amd. Sec. 9, Ch. 237, L. 1995; amd. Sec. 5, Ch. 397, L. 1999; amd. Sec. 70, Ch. 227, L. 2001; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 427, L. 2001; amd. Sec. 50, Ch. 380, L. 2003; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 137, L. 2005; amd. Sec. 35, Ch. 416, L. 2005; amd. Sec. 17, Ch. 595, L. 2005; amd. Sec. 4, Ch. 400, L. 2009; amd. Sec. 5, Ch. 473, L. 2009; amd. Sec. 51, Ch. 151, L. 2017; amd. Sec. 9, Ch. 321, L. 2017; amd. Sec. 31, Ch. 396, L. 2017; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 372, L. 2019.

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0450/chapter_0060/part_0030/section_0170/0450-0060-0030-0170.html

Spoiler: Montana Code Annotated 2021 TITLE 45. CRIMES CHAPTER 6. OFFENSES AGAINST PROPERTY Part 3. Theft and Related Offenses Deceptive Practices

45-6-317. Deceptive practices. (1) A person commits the offense of deceptive practices when the person purposely or knowingly:
(a) causes another, by deception or threat, to execute a document disposing of property or a document by which a pecuniary obligation is incurred;
(b) makes or directs another to make a false or deceptive statement addressed to the public or any person for the purpose of promoting or procuring the sale of property or services;
(c) makes or directs another to make a false or deceptive statement to any person respecting the financial condition of the person making or directing another to make the statement for the purpose of procuring a loan or credit or accepts a false or deceptive statement from any person who is attempting to procure a loan or credit regarding that person's financial condition; or
(d) obtains or attempts to obtain property, labor, or services by any of the following means:
(i) using a credit card that was issued to another without the other's consent;
(ii) using a credit card that has been revoked or canceled;
(iii) using a credit card that has been falsely made, counterfeited, or altered in any material respect;
(iv) using the pretended number or description of a fictitious credit card; or
(v) using a credit card that has expired when the credit card clearly indicates the expiration date.
(2) (a) A person convicted of the offense of deceptive practices if the value of any property, labor, or services obtained or attempted to be obtained does not exceed $1,500 in value shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500. A person convicted of a second offense shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both. A person convicted of a third or subsequent offense shall be imprisoned in the county jail for a term of not less than 5 days or more than 1 year and may be fined an amount not to exceed $500.
(b) A person convicted of the offense of deceptive practices if the value of any property, labor, or services obtained or attempted to be obtained exceeds $1,500 in value and does not exceed $5,000 in value shall be fined an amount not to exceed $1,500 or be imprisoned in the state prison for a term not to exceed 3 years, or both. A person convicted of a second offense shall be fined an amount not to exceed $1,500 or be imprisoned in the state prison for a term not to exceed 5 years, or both. A person convicted of a third or subsequent offense shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a term of not less than 2 years or more than 5 years and may be fined an amount not to exceed $5,000.
(c) A person convicted of the offense of deceptive practices if the value of any property, labor, or services obtained or attempted to be obtained exceeds $5,000 in value or as part of a common scheme shall be fined an amount not to exceed $10,000 or be imprisoned in the state prison for a term not to exceed 10 years, or both.
History: En. 94-6-307 by Sec. 1, Ch. 513, L. 1973; amd. Sec. 23, Ch. 359, L. 1977; R.C.M. 1947, 94-6-307; amd. Sec. 7, Ch. 198, L. 1981; amd. Sec. 6, Ch. 581, L. 1983; amd. Sec. 8, Ch. 616, L. 1993; amd. Sec. 11, Ch. 397, L. 1999; amd. Sec. 11, Ch. 473, L. 2009; amd. Sec. 12, Ch. 321, L. 2017.

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0450/chapter_0060/part_0030/section_0180/0450-0060-0030-0180.html

Spoiler: Montana Code Annotated 2021 TITLE 45. CRIMES CHAPTER 6. OFFENSES AGAINST PROPERTY Part 3. Theft and Related Offenses Deceptive Business Practices

Deceptive Business Practices​

45-6-318. Deceptive business practices. (1) A person commits the offense of deceptive business practices if in the course of engaging in a business, occupation, or profession, the person purposely or knowingly:
(a) uses or possesses for use a false weight or measure or any other device for falsely determining or recording any quality or quantity;
(b) sells, offers, exposes for sale, or delivers less than the represented quantity of any commodity or service;
(c) takes or attempts to take more than the represented quantity of any commodity or service when as buyer the person furnished the weight or measure;
(d) sells, offers, or exposes for sale adulterated commodities;
(e) sells, offers, or exposes for sale mislabeled commodities; or
(f) makes a deceptive statement regarding the quantity or price of goods in any advertisement addressed to the public.
(2) "Adulterated" means varying from the standard of composition or quality prescribed by statute or lawfully promulgated administrative regulation or, if none, as set by established commercial usage.
(3) "Mislabeled" means:
(a) varying from the standard of truth or disclosure in labeling prescribed by statute or lawfully promulgated administrative regulation or, if none, as set by established commercial usage; or
(b) represented as being another person's produce though otherwise labeled accurately as to quality and quantity.
(4) A person convicted of the offense of deceptive business practices shall be fined not to exceed $500 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both.
History: En. 94-6-308 by Sec. 1, Ch. 513, L. 1973; R.C.M. 1947, 94-6-308; amd. Sec. 1672, Ch. 56, L. 2009.

Troy log furniture maker pleads guilty to theft

A Troy man accused of defrauding several people after allegedly failing to build log furniture after taking their orders or not refunding their money has pleaded guilty.

...

Grable was originally charged with felony theft, but according to an amended charging document filed Sept. 29 by Lincoln County Attorney Marcia Boris, two more charges were alleged, including theft in a common scheme and deceptive practices in a common scheme.

...

Court records indicate most of the alleged victims were from out of state, but also in Northwest Montana locations, including Libby and Lakeside. The Better Business Bureau in Spokane, Washington, told Det. Hall it had 18 complaints filed on its website against Montana Custom Log Furniture.

 

[R_A_W]

It's been over a decade since I read anything on the DTPA and I'm not looking up WY code either... but deceptive practices would be more like selling refurbished scopes as 100% NIB from the factory, or offering the purchasers of a first product a 50% off a second specific product that has actually been discontinued and is forever unavailable. It might apply here, I don't know & don't care too much... but

Either Scott has 1) died or otherwise become incapacitated or 2) committed fraud. In the event of #2, the easiest thing to get Scott for here is probably mail/wire fraud.

 

[fdkay]

It's been over a decade since I read anything on the DTPA and I'm not looking up WY code either... but deceptive practices would be more like selling refurbished scopes as 100% NIB from the factory, or offering the purchasers of a first product a 50% off a second specific product that has actually been discontinued and is forever unavailable. It might apply here, I don't know & don't care too much... but

Either Scott has 1) died or otherwise become incapacitated or 2) committed fraud. In the event of #2, the easiest thing to get Scott for here is probably mail/wire fraud.

I'm going to admit, I got my wires crossed somewhere.
Somehow Wyoming ended up in the conversation.
regardless, there is definitely a penal code violation and frequently, there is overlap between two different violations.

The link you provided is for the federal offense.
This is small potato's as far as the feds are concerned. They ususally have a minimum amount before they will even entertain it.
However, if enough reports are filed, the local guys MIGHT refer it to the feds, once they have several reports.
Another avenue is to file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, since, in most cases, there is inter-state involvement.
Here is a video on how to do it.
If everyone on this site that was ripped off files a complaint, you might get some action.

File A Complaint

The official website of the Federal Trade Commission, protecting America’s consumers for over 100 years.

www.ftc.gov