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Libya

Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I look forward to your next number, perhaps a Foxtrot or Disco would be nice. </div></div>

Was disco ever nice?? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep dancing Broker, what's next, your Two-Step or possibly the Meringue?</div></div>

Disco? Only when they spread the Meringue all over everybody ...

R0fAQ.jpg


laugh.gif


</div></div>

All the dancing analogies makes me think someone likes dance dance revolution a little too much...

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Re: Libya

We destabilized the country when we intervened in the uprising in Libya when it gave our government the excuse it needed to help the Muslim Brotherhood gain hegemony in the region, the most likely outcome of these interventions. Consider the sick irony that simultaneously we had aircraft providing close air support FOR Al-Qaeda in Libya and AGAINST them in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We support the ouster of Mubarak, who would at least cooperate with us, while simultaneously refusing to help the activists in Iran seeking to oust the ayatollahs.

The real question is: What is the objective of such a foreign policy? If our previous policy seemed naive and incoherent, this new one seems quite clear, and frankly thought it hardly seems possible, even more dangerous.
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider the sick irony that simultaneously we had aircraft providing close air support FOR Al-Qaeda in Libya and AGAINST them in Iraq and Afghanistan. </div></div>

Perhaps you stating the obvious will awaken Broker from his slumber.

Who are the "bad guys" again?
 
Re: Libya

Perhaps it needs repeating. Libya voted in a moderate and the muslim brotherhood lost the election. MB does not have hegemony in the region.

The foreign policy - if there is one - around Arab Spring is to depose those dictators who want to butter both sides of the slice. Now, the irony is the one country that's most guilty of this is Saudia Arabia but, well, then we're back to oil aren't we.

Dictators no longer work in our favor. The idea of 'he's our bastard' is not longer tenable not when we choose to justify wars on higher moral grounds. The information age, although not widespread in ME still means blatant hypocrisy is easily exploited by our enemies.

Just to put things in perspective - our judging the actions of the people who assaulted in the Consulate in Libya given the numbers involved would be same as judging the US or Christianity by the losers you get at a skinhead rally. It's not representative. Still needs attention and resolution, but it's not 'crater time'. We have more to gain by growing partnerships through more open politics and commerce than we do by outright isolationism.

As for Reagan... well, we already have an anti-gun, pro-debt dude in charge, two would just be too much fun...
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider the sick irony that simultaneously we had aircraft providing close air support FOR Al-Qaeda in Libya and AGAINST them in Iraq and Afghanistan. </div></div>

Perhaps you stating the obvious will awaken Broker from his slumber.

Who are the "bad guys" again? </div></div>

I'm not asleep. You stated that we were destabilizing them (present tense) and my point was that it's already been done so our presence there would not be a continuance of an already achieved agenda. I also took issue with the fact that you think all of us should just get "thick skin" and you're crass attitude towards those hostile over the loss of life as nothing more than collateral damage and "Team America"... Just look at your statement above. Are you implying the Ambassador, Marines, and formal SEAL are "bad guys" because of an Administrations policy? It looks like it to me... I'll gladly take "Team America" any day of the week...
 
Re: Libya

Broker - The American population has a common sense of decency and not only expects, but is told by media that our government crafts policy based on the same. It is largely a lie.

A way point along the journey of truth here: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261

For those that deny the obvious (and choose not to actually pick up a book and educate themselves) - check your own thinking about the outgrowth of LBJ's Great Society Programs and successive generations of welfare recipients within certain demographics. There is no denying the utter failure of the stated purpose of the program - so why would it continue to exist? Why after repeated government studies that identify the basic 'if you give a man a fish vs teach a man to fish' does each admin revamp the program by effectively expanding it? Think there is a correlation to many of the other issues - shrinking middle class / pitting the poor against the rich and squeezing the middle class / drugs / incarceration rates / general government control that may be exerted both by force and via the economy? And that is just one example. Government serves government, and our form of 'representative' government largely caters those who can afford to be represented.



Good luck
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Broker - The American population has a common sense of decency and not only expects, but is told by media that our government crafts policy based on the same. It is largely a lie.

A way point along the journey of truth here: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261

For those that deny the obvious (and choose not to actually pick up a book and educate themselves) - check your own thinking about the outgrowth of LBJ's Great Society Programs and successive generations of welfare recipients within certain demographics. There is no denying the utter failure of the stated purpose of the program - so why would it continue to exist? Why after repeated government studies that identify the basic 'if you give a man a fish vs teach a man to fish' does each admin revamp the program by effectively expanding it? Think there is a correlation to many of the other issues - shrinking middle class / pitting the poor against the rich and squeezing the middle class / drugs / incarceration rates / general government control that may be exerted both by force and via the economy? And that is just one example. Government serves government, and our form of 'representative' government largely caters those who can afford to be represented.



Good luck </div></div>

You ugly shatter-er of worlds and castles in the cloud you...
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think treating our friends like friends and our enemies like enemies is a good theme.

Unfortunately, when the chips go down, America has one friend, America; and there are a daunting number of Americans who aren't America's friends, either.

I think a time is coming when tolerance of Americans who hate America is going to be on the wane.

Greg</div></div>
Greg, I don't disagree with you often, but I am definitely disagreeing with you here. There is Canada, Australia, and Great Britain as well. Though I am only speaking from the Canadian perspective. Ya'll has friends, the only thing is, do you want friends? </div></div>

There are more than a few Aussies that will stand in front of the line with the US .

The sad part is there are just as many Aussies and US citizens who have their head in the sand and cant see what is happening.
 
Re: Libya

The talk of allies - Don't forget about Poland.

Their GROM commandos have been shoulder to shoulder with our Tier 1 guys in every shit hole since 9-11.

Not only committed friends but like our tier 1 <span style="font-style: italic">they are good at this</span>. Try reading a book about any US tier 1 unit that doesn't mention working with them, and always in an extremely positive light.

We should have a closer relationship with them than we do.

--Fargo007
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There are more than a few Aussies that will stand in front of the line with the US .
</div></div>

Agreed, read further.
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you implying the Ambassador, Marines, and formal SEAL are "bad guys" because of an Administrations policy? It looks like it to me... I'll gladly take "Team America" any day of the week... </div></div>


It looks like you seriously need a remedial course in reading comp.

At no point have I suggested what you're now feebly trying to misrepresent as my position.

The "bad guys" are not US personnel Mr. Wizard, but nice attempt at distraction.

Does falsely painting others with your bullshit, typically work as a debate tactic for you?

Carry on prostituting what little intellectual honesty you may or may not have ever possessed.

SamJackson-1.gif


 
Re: Libya

I find the only distractions are any discussion on this subject that follows the media template that misdirects people from the central facts: that these diplomatic missions were attacked on the 11th anniversary of the September 11th, 2001 attacks and that there were ample warnings to prepare for them had there been competent leadership.

Mindless rants about chickens coming home to roost, negative returns on grand strategic missteps, the incessant imbecilic blame on our alliance with Israel being the source of this enmity all pale in stark contrast with the fundamentals that are being ignored.

The first and foremost point that is being ignored is that we were attacked on Sept. 11th. The leadership, in collusion and cooperation with major media is attempting to misdirect the attention of the citizenry of the U.S. and our allies and place blame on bogeymen: Some absurd movie trailer no one ever heard of, the "errors" made by previous administrations, hostility to Islam, racism, grand conspiracies orchestrated by Israel and intl. Jewry, the 1% and other lame brain horse shit. And then there is the even more laughable blame being heaped upon the candidate seeking to replace the current president...

There are many things to discuss when looking at the nightmares unfolding in Egypt, Libya, Yemen and other locations. That so many are blathering about the arcana, shibboleths and tangents is what I find most shocking.

It is indicative that we have no competent leadership and very little in media to keep them honest. That's the real story here.
 
Re: Libya

Well put and timely, too.

Yesterday, this topic led at the top line of all the news services; then by late afternoon, it became harder and harder to find. Interesting, that...

Greg
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you implying the Ambassador, Marines, and formal SEAL are "bad guys" because of an Administrations policy? It looks like it to me... I'll gladly take "Team America" any day of the week... </div></div>


It looks like you seriously need a remedial course in reading comp.

At no point have I suggested what you're now feebly trying to misrepresent as my position.

The "bad guys" are not US personnel Mr. Wizard, but nice attempt at distraction.

Does falsely painting others with your bullshit, typically work as a debate tactic for you?

Carry on prostituting what little intellectual honesty you may or may not have ever possessed.

SamJackson-1.gif


</div></div>

Lol... Ok Kettle...
 
Re: Libya

These attack weren't even front page news on USA Today news paper. It was relegated to page 2 and continued on page 8, if I remember correctly. I only took a quick glance before I checked out of the hotel.

It's a real sh*t storm over there for sure.
 
Re: Libya


- Egypt CIA warns US of attack on 9/4
- State dept receives news of planned attack 2 days in advance
- US evacuates no one, does not strengthen security, does not issue ammo to marines
- US embassies in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Tunisia attacked
- US ambassador ass-raped by goat fuckers in Libya before being murdered
- Commander in Cheese skips intel briefing, parties hardy, tells jokes
- US press attempt to downplay and ignore the attacks.
- DHS monitors extremist websites like snipershide and facebook
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
- Egypt CIA warns US of attack on 9/4
- State dept receives news of planned attack 2 days in advance
- US evacuates no one, does not strengthen security, does not issue ammo to marines
- US embassies in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Tunisia attacked
- US ambassador ass-raped by goat fuckers in Libya before being murdered
- Commander in Cheese skips intel briefing, parties hardy, tells jokes
- US press attempt to downplay and ignore the attacks.
- DHS monitors extremist websites like snipershide and facebook

</div></div>

What time is the next golf outing? That Jay Z is da Bomb!
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
- Egypt CIA warns US of attack on 9/4
- State dept receives news of planned attack 2 days in advance
- US evacuates no one, does not strengthen security, does not issue ammo to marines
- US embassies in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Tunisia attacked
- US ambassador ass-raped by goat fuckers in Libya before being murdered
- Commander in Cheese skips intel briefing, parties hardy, tells jokes
- US press attempt to downplay and ignore the attacks.
- DHS monitors extremist websites like snipershide and facebook

</div></div>

Is part of getting into heaven for these guys is to have sex with men? Remember how pissed the media was about the Marines pissing on some dead insurgents, but our ambassador gets butt raped and nothing.
 
Re: Libya

What is the source of the reports about the warnings? I haven't seen any confirmed reports of this yet.
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter McGavin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
- Egypt CIA warns US of attack on 9/4
- State dept receives news of planned attack 2 days in advance
- US evacuates no one, does not strengthen security, does not issue ammo to marines
- US embassies in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Tunisia attacked
- US ambassador ass-raped by goat fuckers in Libya before being murdered
- Commander in Cheese skips intel briefing, parties hardy, tells jokes
- US press attempt to downplay and ignore the attacks.
- DHS monitors extremist websites like snipershide and facebook

</div></div>

Is part of getting into heaven for these guys is to have sex with men? Remember how pissed the media was about the Marines pissing on some dead insurgents, but our ambassador gets butt raped and nothing. </div></div>

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If you get the time, watch all 4 parts.
 
Re: Libya

Not all Muslims are terrorists. But all terrorists are Muslims.

It's a religious war silly. Nothing will ever change.

Show me one clean civilized city in the middle east?
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find the only distractions are any discussion on this subject that follows the media template that misdirects people from the central facts: that these diplomatic missions were attacked on the 11th anniversary of the September 11th, 2001 attacks and that there were ample warnings to prepare for them had there been competent leadership.

Mindless rants about chickens coming home to roost, negative returns on grand strategic missteps, the incessant imbecilic blame on our alliance with Israel being the source of this enmity all pale in stark contrast with the fundamentals that are being ignored.

The first and foremost point that is being ignored is that we were attacked on Sept. 11th. The leadership, in collusion and cooperation with major media is attempting to misdirect the attention of the citizenry of the U.S. and our allies and place blame on bogeymen: Some absurd movie trailer no one ever heard of, the "errors" made by previous administrations, hostility to Islam, racism, grand conspiracies orchestrated by Israel and intl. Jewry, the 1% and other lame brain horse shit. And then there is the even more laughable blame being heaped upon the candidate seeking to replace the current president...

There are many things to discuss when looking at the nightmares unfolding in Egypt, Libya, Yemen and other locations. That so many are blathering about the arcana, shibboleths and tangents is what I find most shocking.

It is indicative that we have no competent leadership and very little in media to keep them honest. That's the real story here. </div></div>

This. Well said. It would seem even more baffling if one didn't already have the belief that the media at large and players inside our govt. on both sides of the aisle don't have us, the American people's best interest at heart. With news you can't really trust, and spin on spin on spin, and politicians more concerned with their own private agendas it's hard to get a solid read on current events.

It's good to have friends like Aussies, I find that I often relate more with Aussies and Canadians on this forum than some of our own countrymen!
 
Re: Libya

cnn just posted 4 have been "arrested" in libya. we shall see is anything is actually done or just another sham. "round up the usual suspects" claude rains-casablanca.
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: truman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cnn just posted 4 have been "arrested" in libya. we shall see is anything is actually done or just another sham. "round up the usual suspects" claude rains-casablanca. </div></div>

4? Try more like 400 or 4000. 4? Hahahahaha
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find the only distractions are any discussion on this subject that follows the media template that misdirects people from the central facts: that these diplomatic missions were attacked on the 11th anniversary of the September 11th, 2001 attacks and that there were ample warnings to prepare for them had there been competent leadership.

Mindless rants about chickens coming home to roost, negative returns on grand strategic missteps, the incessant imbecilic blame on our alliance with Israel being the source of this enmity all pale in stark contrast with the fundamentals that are being ignored.

The first and foremost point that is being ignored is that we were attacked on Sept. 11th. The leadership, in collusion and cooperation with major media is attempting to misdirect the attention of the citizenry of the U.S. and our allies and place blame on bogeymen: Some absurd movie trailer no one ever heard of, the "errors" made by previous administrations, hostility to Islam, racism, grand conspiracies orchestrated by Israel and intl. Jewry, the 1% and other lame brain horse shit. And then there is the even more laughable blame being heaped upon the candidate seeking to replace the current president...

There are many things to discuss when looking at the nightmares unfolding in Egypt, Libya, Yemen and other locations. That so many are blathering about the arcana, shibboleths and tangents is what I find most shocking.

It is indicative that we have no competent leadership and very little in media to keep them honest. That's the real story here. </div></div>

Wow - dude, I thought the carpenter thing was just a coincidence, didn't realize it was a brand... will you be doing the water and food thing on PPV or PBS?
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter McGavin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
- Egypt CIA warns US of attack on 9/4
- State dept receives news of planned attack 2 days in advance
- US evacuates no one, does not strengthen security, does not issue ammo to marines
- US embassies in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Tunisia attacked
- US ambassador ass-raped by goat fuckers in Libya before being murdered
- Commander in Cheese skips intel briefing, parties hardy, tells jokes
- US press attempt to downplay and ignore the attacks.
- DHS monitors extremist websites like snipershide and facebook

</div></div>

Is part of getting into heaven for these guys is to have sex with men? Remember how pissed the media was about the Marines pissing on some dead insurgents, but our ambassador gets butt raped and nothing. </div></div>

Any documentation or source other than 500's imagination for the above?
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There are more than a few Aussies that will stand in front of the line with the US .
</div></div>

Agreed, read further. </div></div>

I know just letting you know that there are people out there that will stand up for whats right.
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter McGavin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
- Egypt CIA warns US of attack on 9/4
- State dept receives news of planned attack 2 days in advance
- US evacuates no one, does not strengthen security, does not issue ammo to marines
- US embassies in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Tunisia attacked
- US ambassador ass-raped by goat fuckers in Libya before being murdered
- Commander in Cheese skips intel briefing, parties hardy, tells jokes
- US press attempt to downplay and ignore the attacks.
- DHS monitors extremist websites like snipershide and facebook

</div></div>

Is part of getting into heaven for these guys is to have sex with men? Remember how pissed the media was about the Marines pissing on some dead insurgents, but our ambassador gets butt raped and nothing. </div></div>

Any documentation or source other than 500's imagination for the above? </div></div>

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=284684

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...on-8135797.html


Most of what 500grains said (ass-raping, presidential partying and a silent Press withstanding) is being confirmed.

The Administration is denying they were ever warned, SHOCKER.
 
Re: Libya

Well, one source cites a 'secret letter' (I doubt that egyptian or Israeli media is any more want to prevent fact from getting in the way of a good story) and the other actually pokes a finger in the single eye of the idea that there was no appropriate protection - in fact, Stevens was in a safe house and it seems there was a security breach given his location and presence in the country was supposed to be secret. I wonder if the secrecy was because it was Sept. 11 and it would have been dangerous or foolish to be out in the open... who knows.

I'll leave the ass-raping to cable news to verify, perhaps 500 will post a re-enactment for our benefit.
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find the only distractions are any discussion on this subject that follows the media template that misdirects people from the central facts: that these diplomatic missions were attacked on the 11th anniversary of the September 11th, 2001 attacks and that there were ample warnings to prepare for them had there been competent leadership.

Mindless rants about chickens coming home to roost, negative returns on grand strategic missteps, the incessant imbecilic blame on our alliance with Israel being the source of this enmity all pale in stark contrast with the fundamentals that are being ignored.

The first and foremost point that is being ignored is that we were attacked on Sept. 11th. The leadership, in collusion and cooperation with major media is attempting to misdirect the attention of the citizenry of the U.S. and our allies and place blame on bogeymen: Some absurd movie trailer no one ever heard of, the "errors" made by previous administrations, hostility to Islam, racism, grand conspiracies orchestrated by Israel and intl. Jewry, the 1% and other lame brain horse shit. And then there is the even more laughable blame being heaped upon the candidate seeking to replace the current president...

There are many things to discuss when looking at the nightmares unfolding in Egypt, Libya, Yemen and other locations. That so many are blathering about the arcana, shibboleths and tangents is what I find most shocking.

It is indicative that we have no competent leadership and very little in media to keep them honest. That's the real story here. </div></div>

<span style="color: #990000">Wow - dude, I thought the carpenter thing was just a coincidence, didn't realize it was a brand... will you be doing the water and food thing on PPV or PBS?</span>

</div></div>

Non sequitor in red...
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, one source cites a 'secret letter' (I doubt that egyptian or Israeli media is any more want to prevent fact from getting in the way of a good story) and the other actually pokes a finger in the single eye of the idea that there was no appropriate protection - in fact, Stevens was in a safe house and it seems there was a security breach given his location and presence in the country was supposed to be secret. I wonder if the secrecy was because it was Sept. 11 and it would have been dangerous or foolish to be out in the open... who knows.

I'll leave the ass-raping to cable news to verify, perhaps 500 will post a re-enactment for our benefit.
</div></div>

These aspects have been widely reported at this point, including clear evidence that the safe house location was burned in advance of their appearance at it (mortars dialed in on it).

You cannot argue there was "appropriate protection" when the ambassador is tortured, and he and three other Americans are dead, and there are ZERO EKIA.

--Fargo007
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps it needs repeating. Libya voted in a moderate and the muslim brotherhood lost the election. MB does not have hegemony in the region.

The foreign policy - if there is one - around Arab Spring is to depose those dictators who want to butter both sides of the slice. Now, the irony is the one country that's most guilty of this is Saudia Arabia but, well, then we're back to oil aren't we.

Dictators no longer work in our favor. The idea of 'he's our bastard' is not longer tenable not when we choose to justify wars on higher moral grounds. The information age, although not widespread in ME still means blatant hypocrisy is easily exploited by our enemies.

Just to put things in perspective - our judging the actions of the people who assaulted in the Consulate in Libya given the numbers involved would be same as judging the US or Christianity by the losers you get at a skinhead rally. It's not representative. Still needs attention and resolution, but it's not 'crater time'. We have more to gain by growing partnerships through more open politics and commerce than we do by outright isolationism.

As for Reagan... well, we already have an anti-gun, pro-debt dude in charge, two would just be too much fun...

</div></div>

With all due respect EH, and I mean that as I believe you are an independent thinker which I respect, I think your view here is somewhat optimistic. I have dedicated several years of my professional life to this region which has given me some common sense perspective, though I am not claiming to have the only valid viewpoint.

First, as far as the moderate government in Libya, we will just wait and see and don't worry I won't say I told you so later. I have seen some crazy stuff over there but I have never been surprised at anything they have done - if Libya turns out to be a moderate functioning Islamic democracy then I WILL be surprised. I won't bet you on the outcome because it would be the same as stealing. Most of the votes for Mustafa Abshugar came from Brotherhood delegates. We will see.

As far as the so called Arab Spring, again call me a severe sceptic, as I am confident it will in reality result in Arab winter. Show me a strong majority free Islamic society. Democracy in and of itself is the potential for good - not the result of it. The Palestinians had democratic elections and promptly elected Hamas. Is that cause for rejoicing? Hardly. Democracy can easily lead to all forms of despotism...a fact which causes me to fear for my children's future in our own country, which is why it is right to focus here. You believe the actions of the embassy attackers isn't representative, but based on my experience, I believe that it is. The expansion of Sharia law through violence when necessary follows them wherever they have the majority.

I would be fine with open commerce, but I am done politically with the Islamists. Buy, sell, trade, fine. But if I was in charge this country would be done with being strong armed by a cartel of oil pushers who screw us with the sale of the same product we discovered for them, then delivered a turnkey industry to, and which industry WE have defended in several wars. I am done with them. The popular opinion is we cant afford life without them...after trillions in debt and the REAL cost of gasoline at the pump in the hundreds of dollars per gallon I say we can't afford living with them. It is time to take charge of our energy future and focus on solving our own problems instead of theirs.

I once had your optimism...unfortunately it was crushed under the weight of the reality I experienced.
 
Re: Libya

I'm not saying there was appropriate protection. Clearly the American dead bear grim testimony that there wasn't. But the secrecy (or attempted anyway) over Stevens' movements doesn't jive with the view idea that there was indifference to the date and situation.

It was and is a clusterfuck. I'm just bored with the idea that the oval office was filled with people screaming for armed divisions to guard the embassies only to be refuted by an Obama dressed in traditional Arab garb, burning a US flag replying nonchalantly, "Nah, we're good."

As is often stated in much simpler situations , "we weren't there, we don't have all the information."
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm just bored with the idea that the oval office was filled with people screaming for armed divisions to guard the embassies only to be refuted by an Obama dressed in traditional Arab garb, burning a US flag replying nonchalantly, "Nah, we're good."

As is often stated in much simpler situations , "we weren't there, we don't have all the information."

</div></div>


I dunno, I can kinda see Ol Barry blazing a fatty while chillin in a Dashiki, conferring with Rev Wright on the phone and coming up with the exact wording of "Nah, we're good".



Good luck



 
Re: Libya

As I see it this Arab spring thing sounded like a good idea. But unfortunately democracy is like a loaded gun. You never give it to anyone unless you know where they're going to point it. Arab society hasn't progressed to a point where they are ready for democracy. Give it another few hundred years, & maybe. Right now they still need dictators.
 
Re: Libya

Democracy is a rough-and-tumble business. It wasn't so long ago that our country went through its own internal struggles.
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Democracy is a rough-and-tumble business. It wasn't so long ago that our country went through its own internal struggles. </div></div>

This is very true, and there's no saying we won't have more internal struggles of that magnitude in the future.
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not saying there was appropriate protection. Clearly the American dead bear grim testimony that there wasn't. But the secrecy (or attempted anyway) over Stevens' movements doesn't jive with the view idea that there was indifference to the date and situation.

It was and is a clusterfuck. <span style="color: #3333FF">I'm just bored with the idea that the oval office was filled with people screaming for armed divisions to guard the embassies only to be refuted by an Obama dressed in traditional Arab garb, burning a US flag replying nonchalantly, "Nah, we're good."</span>

As is often stated in much simpler situations , "we weren't there, we don't have all the information."

</div></div>

How about competent people who don't retroactively redact, edit or remove evidence of what they have done, what they were provided and have no fucking accountability by the presstitutes who used to go so far as provide intel to our enemies as recently as 4 years ago. This while saying unbelievably bald faced horseshit about what a great job they are doing!

Is that boring you?

I think this belies your protestations of objective cynicism. You know, the "They are all the same", "Watch something other than Faux News" crap you love to spout.

The time is well past such pretense. This monumental fuck up is the product of arrogance coupled with incompetence aided and abetted by an echo chamber of media whores who are actively engaged in advocacy unparalleled in the history of yellow journalism. The lust for power and access to it is far more objectionable to me than the frequently demonized "Profiteers" so monolithically savaged by the same power mad people so desperately trying to separate the owner of this colossal calamity from his responsibility for it.

This is the real story. It has been for some time. The idea that any of the horseshit that has occurred in the "Arab Spring" is anything resembling democracy is laughable. They voted...Uh OK...

Like the lazy comparison to our revolution by those who invoke that of the French...It's crap.

The French revolution was not democracy, it was mob rule that turned into blood drenched chaos. It was many years later, post Napoleon's empire building, that anything resembling a republic emerged. And there have since been 3? 4? hard to keep track, but be assured I never forget that we should do whatever the French say...
crazy.gif


The mobs that overran Tunesia, then Egypt, then Libya and now Syria were/are always Islamic: Moslem Brotherhood, AlQueda, and other intensely Islamic outfits.

The mush headed nonsense even carries over to the marxist shitheads attempting to manipulate the acquisitive and embittered loafers populating the "Occupy" malingerers. They did a great job here in Tampa!
laugh.gif
I guess the "Movement" has a ways to go in motivating the shitbaggery to come out in the rain and heat...

Dear lord the bullshit...

 
Re: Libya

Revising and extending my remarks...

I had commented to the effect that when one arms an Arab, one always ends up with a knife in one's back; I and recognize that might be interpreted as excessively harsh and unsympathethic.

I did not mean to infer that said Arab was turning on their benefactor. While this could be true in some instances, I think it rather more likely that said Arab's enemy would be wielding said knife. Find an Arab, and you'll likely also find several enemies.

Therein lies the problem in the Middle East; they just don't appear to have much desire to 'just all get along'.

Oddly enough, the West has never grasped that simple fact; and has made it their life's work to unquestioningly alter that force of nature.

Holy Land. Indeed.

Greg
 
Re: Libya

I wunder when the Occupy Movement, the peaceniks and the unions here in the US of A will join forces with them.
 
Re: Libya

When they do, all they will accomplish is a long overdue and probably disproportionate backlash.

The creeps seem to experience an insurmountable urge to slip out of the woodwork and undercut the mainstream when that surrounding culture comes under attack.

Maybe thsi will be the trigger that puts and end to the brand of abuse of decency and tolerance that allows malice to masquerade as diversity.

Counterculture is not a bad thing, but there are reasonable bounds within which its dedication and values can be of benefit.

Beyond those bounds lies anarchy, and no small portion of those who claim to respect those bounds are simply waiting for moments of distraction and stress to press their anarchist agenda. I welcome it, because this hypocrisy can only be addressed once it reveals its true intent.

Perhaps we are on a path to a deeper trasparency in our culture.

I think it comes at a useful time...

Greg
 
Re: Libya

Here's the thing that get's me by reading through this thread. Ninety-nine percent of you are taking this whole thing at face value!

You are all missing the point! This is the outcome of our meddling in foreign affairs. We are just now reaping the outcome of 30+ years of interfering with government structures where we had no business being in the first place!

I am 100% for a free democratic society. However, do I believe it is for everyone? Absolutely not! I know it's hard for us to understand while we're in our air conditioned home with our TV on, while we eat our freshly cooked breakfast from a hot stove. If we wish to ... we can drive down the road and purchase anything we want with credit, as long as we pay the bill later ... or ... maybe not!

The point is ... not all societies are set up as free and democratic societies. When we try and force feed our ideas to countries that aren't structured that way ... we have problems. Like we're seeing here! Just because it's good for us doesn't mean it's good for them!
 
Re: Libya

The militant protesters are characterized by fellow Islamics as a noisy minority.

Dead diplomats are not the product of a noisy minority.

They are the evidence of intolerance and a homicidal malice which is glibly disavowed without any genuine effort to diminish its growth. A silent majority is a cowardly majority, a dessembling majority, and shares all the blame that the noisy minority deserves.

Pointed fingers only serve to amplify that the pointers recognize the evil in their midst, but do nothing to absolve their inaction.

The houses need cleaning, and if the inhabitants insist on a practice that trades on indifference, it falls on their neighbors to reduce the common threat of deadly contamination.

Malice is evil, no matter what cloak it wears.

Greg
 
Re: Libya

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not saying there was appropriate protection. Clearly the American dead bear grim testimony that there wasn't. But the secrecy (or attempted anyway) over Stevens' movements doesn't jive with the view idea that there was indifference to the date and situation.

It was and is a clusterfuck. I'm just bored with the idea that the oval office was filled with people screaming for armed divisions to guard the embassies only to be refuted by an Obama dressed in traditional Arab garb, burning a US flag replying nonchalantly, "Nah, we're good."

As is often stated in much simpler situations , "we weren't there, we don't have all the information."

</div></div>

You're turning it into a cartoon, but the same anti-military, non-use of force attitude is there.

Need I point out that Clinton was the one who prohibited any armor support in Operation Gothic Serpent, a.k.a. "blackhawk down." And he did so to forestall the appearance of US armor crushing minorities. Had there been heavier support (as requested by those who knew it was necessary) it might have turned out quite differently.

Does he sit around wearing arab garb? No.

Is he a closet muslim? No.

Does he make decisions that weigh the sensibilities of muslims far higher than any other factor? Yes.

To include influencing the RoE and security profile to the extent that not one of them will be killed? I say Yes.

And his secretary of state is out there apologizing to the world for our constitution and freedom of speech.

Outrageous.

--Fargo007

 
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