Suppressors Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

Killer Spade 13

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Just a thought . . .

Wouldn't it be a good idea if a sticky were created which would allow those who have created living trusts for the purpose of purchasing suppressors to post edited copies of their trusts upon which others could rely for guidance?

They could even be assorted into the various states to assure legal compliance.

It seems so many questions are asked, and so few answers given.

It would be an excellent way for members to share and lighted a burdensome task.
 

netranger6

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

I think this is a good idea, but some of us spent a few bucks to have them prepared. I would post, but don't think my attorney would approve his firms product up for distro.
 

Killer Spade 13

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

The living trust is the product of the state, not proprietary property of a private law practice . . . just sayin'

I realize that people have spent money for these things.

Kinda like changing someone's tire on the side of the road. You can let the person call a tow truck and have it done, or you can stop and help.

Not picking at ya, but if I'd had one done, I'd be more than happy to share.

I've printed off the forms from a public share ware site. I'm going to fill them out and have my cousin, who's an attorney, review them for correctness. If they're correct, then I'll edit out the specific portions, put in generic verbage, and post to the site.

I'm just sort of that way . . .
 

wakajawaka

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think this is a good idea, but some of us spent a few bucks to have them prepared. I would post, but don't think my attorney would approve his firms product up for distro. </div></div>

+1
 

netranger6

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

I hear ya man, I'm just referencing the one I had prepared by a firm that took the time to have the director review at NFA branch. Includes not only the trust/shcedule A, but a few additional addendums additional page. They took the time to have a very specific NFA trust.

https://tlsnfa.com/pages/about

Not a shameless plug, just my experience and I'm happy with the product. They have been great with before,during, and now after advice. I can literally call my attorney, and actually speak with him without waiting days on end. Pretty slick.
 

Killer Spade 13

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

Wow, didn't know so many were so fond of paying unnecessary legal fees!!!

Guys, this is a legal document created by the respective state in which you live, it doens't belong to an attorney. All we do is just pay them to put in the right words!!!

Anyway . . .
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

I think this is a great idea.......

I have a friend that is a lawyer, He has the Document saved a a WORD DOC. all he does is puts your name and trust name in pushes button and WHAM.....your trust is done... And that will be 350.00 Thanks you.....

That is how it works plain and simple...... It also works that way for many more documents and contracts.....
 

KYS

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The living trust is the product of the state, not proprietary property of a private law practice . . . just sayin'

I realize that people have spent money for these things.

Kinda like changing someone's tire on the side of the road. You can let the person call a tow truck and have it done, or you can stop and help.

Not picking at ya, but if I'd had one done, I'd be more than happy to share.

I've printed off the forms from a public share ware site. I'm going to fill them out and have my cousin, who's an attorney, review them for correctness. If they're correct, then I'll edit out the specific portions, put in generic verbage, and post to the site.

I'm just sort of that way . . . </div></div>

The trust is property of the Grantor and Trustee, the state doesn't own it. Its compliant with state laws, if that is what you meant.

Generic verbage is a good way to have your trust deemed invalid by the NFA. Hence the lawyers written trust specific to your needs and state laws. Every state is different in how they determine a trust is specific enough.

If I paid $600.00 to have my trust written specifically to NFA language, then had to go thru 2 lawyers for correctness why would I give that away? That is a service I paid for. The idea of it is nice but it's not fair to the person to expect them to just start handing out what they worked hard to obtain. Changing someones tire on the side of the road does not cost me $600.00. It costs me some time and dirty hands....
 

netranger6

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

Well then just get Quicken and rock on. I've looked at a few of those you refer too, and can say that the product I paid for is much more solid. Trust me, (no pun intended), I would have saved some jack if I thought it was worth the long term.

Sure, all attorneys just plug and play, not just with Trusts. To me, it's more important to go the route I went. I don't plan on flipping any items in the trust, they are there for my 2 1/2 year old to enjoy when he's 21.
 

Killer Spade 13

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

"Generic verbage is a good way to have your trust deemed invalid by the NFA. Hence the lawyers written trust specific to your needs and state laws. Every state is different in how they determine a trust is specific enough."

KYS338, that is why I suggested it be broken down into specific states.

What does it benefit me by making others pay for something which I consider public domain property? Like Mamma used to say, "Just because Billy ate a piece of chicken shit, does that mean you have to?"

If I have the ability to alleviate someone of, what I consider to be, an unnecesary financial outlay without breaking the law, then I will elect to do so.

It is my considered opinion that the number of trusts generated by such beheficence would not have an egregious impact on the revenues generated by our legal brothers. I'm sure they'll still be able to afford their Lexus', Escalades, etc. . . .

I've merely posted this suggestion so that the powers that be that run the board can give it consideraton. Those who elect to participate will do so, those who don't, won't.
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The living trust is the product of the state, not proprietary property of a private law practice . . . just sayin'

I realize that people have spent money for these things.

Kinda like changing someone's tire on the side of the road. You can let the person call a tow truck and have it done, or you can stop and help.

Not picking at ya, but if I'd had one done, I'd be more than happy to share.

I've printed off the forms from a public share ware site. I'm going to fill them out and have my cousin, who's an attorney, review them for correctness. If they're correct, then I'll edit out the specific portions, put in generic verbage, and post to the site.

I'm just sort of that way . . . </div></div>

The trust is property of the Grantor and Trustee, the state doesn't own it. Its compliant with state laws, if that is what you meant.

Generic verbage is a good way to have your trust deemed invalid by the NFA. Hence the lawyers written trust specific to your needs and state laws. Every state is different in how they determine a trust is specific enough.

If I paid $600.00 to have my trust written specifically to NFA language, then had to go thru 2 lawyers for correctness why would I give that away? That is a service I paid for. The idea of it is nice but it's not fair to the person to expect them to just start handing out what they worked hard to obtain. Changing someones tire on the side of the road does not cost me $600.00. It costs me some time and dirty hands.... </div></div>

They worked hard for???? Maybe the original guy or a intern worked hard. And as for it being reviewed by two other lawyers.... That is funny LOL...LOL... If you believe that then there is some ocean front property in Arizona 4-sale.
 

KYS

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The living trust is the product of the state, not proprietary property of a private law practice . . . just sayin'

I realize that people have spent money for these things.

Kinda like changing someone's tire on the side of the road. You can let the person call a tow truck and have it done, or you can stop and help.

Not picking at ya, but if I'd had one done, I'd be more than happy to share.

I've printed off the forms from a public share ware site. I'm going to fill them out and have my cousin, who's an attorney, review them for correctness. If they're correct, then I'll edit out the specific portions, put in generic verbage, and post to the site.

I'm just sort of that way . . . </div></div>

The trust is property of the Grantor and Trustee, the state doesn't own it. Its compliant with state laws, if that is what you meant.

Generic verbage is a good way to have your trust deemed invalid by the NFA. Hence the lawyers written trust specific to your needs and state laws. Every state is different in how they determine a trust is specific enough.

If I paid $600.00 to have my trust written specifically to NFA language, then had to go thru 2 lawyers for correctness why would I give that away? That is a service I paid for. The idea of it is nice but it's not fair to the person to expect them to just start handing out what they worked hard to obtain. Changing someones tire on the side of the road does not cost me $600.00. It costs me some time and dirty hands.... </div></div>

They worked hard for???? Maybe the original guy or a intern worked hard. And as for it being reviewed by two other lawyers.... That is funny LOL...LOL... If you believe that then there is some ocean front property in Arizona 4-sale. </div></div>

Whats funny? The lawyer I paid to write the trust was in Florida. The woman who revised and reviewed the trust for my state laws was a local lawyer. The firm I used has a web of lawyers all over to check compliance with their state laws of said client. I met with her. So I don't know where you get off thinking that you know everything about the law firm I used or hundreds of others have used with success.

I went the lawyer route because I wanted security knowing when I die my successor will have no trouble taking over the items in my trust. Quicken is NOT specific enough to cover NFA items and eventually they will deem them to broad and invalid. Might have something to do with why Quicken stopped offering the program....

I will take lake front property in Arizona.... I have always wanted to be on Havasu
 

KYS

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EXACTLY, It takes the lawyers dirty hands 1 minute to type your info in. and push print on a already written document. And then ask you for 600.00.

The language is the same on every one of the trust... The name and address is different and the name of trust is different. that is it.

</div></div>

Not correct in the least bit..... I started off with a Quicken Willmaker generated trust. It was so basic and vague that I got uncomfortable and made the call to have a lawyer amend the trust and rewrite it SPECIFICALLY for NFA items. Quicken is not specific, I cant stress it enough.

A basic computer program is on another spectrum vs. a trust written for you specifically for the NFA items. I advise research it and go that route if you can.
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

Well, there you have it. You spent to much for what you got....Why would you not just start with a lawyer in your state, so there is not all this reviewing back and forth.

By the way there is no security in the future for anything.... So if you think that when you are dead you have any say in what happens to your stuff well, that is Naive...
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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By the way I never said to go to quicken.
 

KYS

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, there you have it. You spent to much for what you got....Why would you not just start with a lawyer in your state, so there is not all this reviewing back and forth.

By the way there is no security in the future for anything.... <span style="color: #FF0000">So if you think that when you are dead you have any say in what happens to your stuff well, that is Naive.</span>.. </div></div>

Really? I won't be able to communicate when I'm dead? Are you sure?

I paid what I did for the services provided and knowledge that they brought to the table. Get over it! I was not aware that you know every price to every law firm in the country and "what their services are worth".
 

raider1v1

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EXACTLY, It takes the lawyers dirty hands 1 minute to type your info in. and push print on a already written document. And then ask you for 600.00.

The language is the same on every one of the trust... The name and address is different and the name of trust is different. that is it.

</div></div>

Not correct in the least bit..... I started off with a Quicken Willmaker generated trust. It was so basic and vague that I got uncomfortable and made the call to have a lawyer amend the trust and rewrite it SPECIFICALLY for NFA items. Quicken is not specific, I cant stress it enough.

A basic computer program is on another spectrum vs. a trust written for you specifically for the NFA items. I advise research it and go that route if you can.

</div></div>

I also had a standard quicken trust and it was VERY generic and in the current version, its not even an offered option. I paid 350 for mine in KS and am VERY happy with it. it has language specific for NFA items and the penalty for something missing or done incorrectly is not worth saving the cost of the trust.

If the cost of having an attorney do one is not something you feel comfortable paying, i would suggest just doing the personal ownership route.

Both dealers in KS that I have talked to strongly recommended doing the trust route through a lawyer.

If anyone wants, the lawyer in KS I used was:

R. Todd King
Wichita, KS
P: 316.263.0505
F: 316.263.2128
E: [email protected]

I sent my quicken version to him and he said that it was fine for approval, but under an attorneys scrutiny it wont hold up. He then proceeded to tell me several sections that were not included that needed to be.
 

TexasGunTrustLawyer

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The language is the same on every one of the trust... The name and address is different and the name of trust is different. that is it.</div></div>

This really is not corrrect. My trust is different than Goldman's trust. His trust is differnt than Bass' trust. Bass's trust is different than the new group that is doing them in Texas and that trust is different than Trent's trust.

They are revocable trusts, but each one is different and not a copy of the other.

You pay an attorney to gain access to his expertise. If I do your trust, we will talk before the trust to determine if it fits your needs and how it should be structured. Once the trust is done, even if it 4 years later, you call, I answer and help you resolve your question. If the ATF kicks a form back, I call the ATF for my clients and figure out what is needed to resolve the issue.

Its a free country, if you want to hire an attorney and if you feel that it is worth the money, you should do it. If you are comfortable going it alone and getting your answers from the internet, then do that.

I have amended several people's internet/Quicken/Legal Zoom trusts that were rejected after the ATF transferred NFA items into the trust on prior occasions. One of these trusts was on the 5th application for transfer of a suppressor.

One guy who had 3-4 NFA items transferred to a DBA in his name. On the last transfer, soneone at the ATF figured out that all these items had been wrongly transferred into a DBA and not a business entity. This had to be corrected immeidatley per the ATF's NFA Branch.

Did the ATF kick anyone's doors down? Nope. Did these issue cause unneeded and unnecessary stress? Yes.

So if you want an attorney to prepare your trust, we are here. There are several of us in Texas that do these. Some charge more than I do, some charge less. Yo pay your money and make your choice.
 

netranger6

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/334067_NFA_Trust_Sample.html </div></div>

Yeah, my $$ was well spent after looking that one over. Plus I have a team to represent my NFA interests. I almost pulled the trigger on doing my own hack job, but figured it would cost me more in A: Time B: Expense (attorney to review) C: Ibruprofen

Does 300, 400, 500 bucks seem too much to invest in the instrument, given you're investing 500-2500 or whatever, in NFA items? Or, deal with your CLEO and hope he/she isn't a dick. OR, download that and adopt it to your state specific and hope it passes examiner scrutiny. The process is already a lengthy one, so why bother making it longer.
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

I actually stand corrected, I see you guys point. I am going with your guys netranger6.
 

netranger6

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I actually stand corrected, I see you guys point. I am going with your guys netranger6. </div></div>

Cool. You'll like them my friend.
 

Numb_Skull

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

In Michigan you also have to register you're trust with the county courthouse, the lawyers name and bar# is required. So making you're own trust is not an option, unless you know a lawyer who will sign off on your home made one.
 

Killer Spade 13

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Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

Once again, if you follow the dictate of the state, the instrument is conforming and abiding. What is so complicated about this?

If one executes the instrument, according to all legal requirements of the state in which it is created, has that instrument accepted by a federal agency, why cannot that instrument, with the requisite modifications made, not be an acceptable instrument to the same jurisdiction?
 

Adam B

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Michigan you also have to register you're trust with the county courthouse, the lawyers name and bar# is required. So making you're own trust is not an option, unless you know a lawyer who will sign off on your home made one. </div></div>


    shit, I knew it was too easy to do it on your own.
     

    Jeffvn

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    Each state has different trust requirements (some are very similar, but they are NOT all the same). The Trust I saw from Texas is not the same as the one that I have in Nevada.

    I paid for mine, and am confident its done right (That was why I paid to have it done).

    the more troubling question (and one that I do not have an answer for) is what happens if you move from a state like Texas or Nevada to a state like Michigan where the requirements are different... what was legal in one may not be legal in the other....

    JeffVN
     

    Killer Spade 13

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    A quick question, when the copy of the trust is submitted with the application, is there any item or items listed on the trust, or is it merely proof that the trust has been set up?
     

    netranger6

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    Well, that again is state specific I believe. In Texas, the trust listed them to be in the trust via Schedule A. As well, my trust has an Assignment of Interest on the items. The entire trust, Schedule A and Assignment of Interest were submitted along with the Form 4 (s). Also, make sure your Form 4's are printed front and back, not two pages of front only.
     

    Silenced America

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TexasGunTrustLawer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The language is the same on every one of the trust... The name and address is different and the name of trust is different. that is it.</div></div>

    This really is not corrrect. My trust is different than Goldman's trust. His trust is differnt than Bass' trust. Bass's trust is different than the new group that is doing them in Texas and that trust is different than Trent's trust.

    They are revocable trusts, but each one is different and not a copy of the other.

    You pay an attorney to gain access to his expertise. If I do your trust, we will talk before the trust to determine if it fits your needs and how it should be structured. Once the trust is done, even if it 4 years later, you call, I answer and help you resolve your question. If the ATF kicks a form back, I call the ATF for my clients and figure out what is needed to resolve the issue.

    Its a free country, if you want to hire an attorney and if you feel that it is worth the money, you should do it. If you are comfortable going it alone and getting your answers from the internet, then do that.

    I have amended several people's internet/Quicken/Legal Zoom trusts that were rejected after the ATF transferred NFA items into the trust on prior occasions. One of these trusts was on the 5th application for transfer of a suppressor.

    One guy who had 3-4 NFA items transferred to a DBA in his name. On the last transfer, soneone at the ATF figured out that all these items had been wrongly transferred into a DBA and not a business entity. This had to be corrected immeidatley per the ATF's NFA Branch.

    Did the ATF kick anyone's doors down? Nope. Did these issue cause unneeded and unnecessary stress? Yes.

    So if you want an attorney to prepare your trust, we are here. There are several of us in Texas that do these. Some charge more than I do, some charge less. Yo pay your money and make your choice.



    </div></div>

    FWIW, TGTL has a bad ass trust. He is easy to deal with. I cannot count the number of trusts that I have sent in that were created by him and I have never had one kicked back. I have never had a customer complain about his services. All I have heard were folks singing his praises.

    I always tell people that a trust is worth the INVESTMENT. It protects you and your investments. It ensures that your investments will be looked after well after you have kicked the bucket and your family won't be left holding your NFA items wondering WTF they should do with them.

    On a side note...whether or not you go with a Trust, it is your responsibility to inform those who will be responsible for your estate when you die about the legalities of the NFA items that you possess. If you are going the individual route, I would suggest that in your will (everyone needs a will) you specifically list the items by make, model, and Ser# and who you want them to go to. That is my non-lawyerly advice.
     

    Killer Spade 13

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    I posted this thread not as an idea for a complete legal library, but simply a way of allowing <span style="font-weight: bold">1:</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">A</span> shooter of 2: <span style="font-weight: bold">A specific state</span> to have access to 3: <span style="font-weight: bold">A sample trust previously accepted by the ATF</span> for 4: <span style="font-weight: bold">The sole purpose </span>of 5: <span style="font-weight: bold">Purchasing one suppressor</span>.

    GIVEN that all of the above caveats apply:

    <span style="font-weight: bold">IF:</span> The trust has been accepted for that state by the ATF

    <span style="font-weight: bold">THEN:</span> The prospective purchaser can use it with the understanding that it is valid is his state

    <span style="font-weight: bold">THEREFORE:</span> The sample trust can be completed and submitted to the ATF with confidence that it will be accepted

    <span style="font-weight: bold">ELSE:</span> The prospective purchaser will find a viable alternative to registration

    I dare say that if <span style="font-weight: bold">10 different purchasers </span>from <span style="font-weight: bold">10 different towns</span> in the <span style="font-weight: bold">same state</span> went to the <span style="font-weight: bold">same estate attorney</span> for the sole purpose of purchasing 1 suppressor, the instruments created would look just like a "fill in the blank" for but with different details.

    I didn't mean to raise the fury of the American Bar Association's lobby group.
     

    netranger6

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    Spade, you're too hostile over something that will never be settled. Just do what you want to do or think is the right route for your situation. No matter what, the process takes time, lots of it, so you could develop your own via research and verbage.

    I don't think you have anything to lose, with exception of possibly having that phone call saying there's an issue with the transfer to the trust.
     

    223ai

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silenced America</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TexasGunTrustLawer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The language is the same on every one of the trust... The name and address is different and the name of trust is different. that is it.</div></div>

    This really is not corrrect. My trust is different than Goldman's trust. His trust is differnt than Bass' trust. Bass's trust is different than the new group that is doing them in Texas and that trust is different than Trent's trust.

    They are revocable trusts, but each one is different and not a copy of the other.

    You pay an attorney to gain access to his expertise. If I do your trust, we will talk before the trust to determine if it fits your needs and how it should be structured. Once the trust is done, even if it 4 years later, you call, I answer and help you resolve your question. If the ATF kicks a form back, I call the ATF for my clients and figure out what is needed to resolve the issue.

    Its a free country, if you want to hire an attorney and if you feel that it is worth the money, you should do it. If you are comfortable going it alone and getting your answers from the internet, then do that.

    I have amended several people's internet/Quicken/Legal Zoom trusts that were rejected after the ATF transferred NFA items into the trust on prior occasions. One of these trusts was on the 5th application for transfer of a suppressor.

    One guy who had 3-4 NFA items transferred to a DBA in his name. On the last transfer, soneone at the ATF figured out that all these items had been wrongly transferred into a DBA and not a business entity. This had to be corrected immeidatley per the ATF's NFA Branch.

    Did the ATF kick anyone's doors down? Nope. Did these issue cause unneeded and unnecessary stress? Yes.

    So if you want an attorney to prepare your trust, we are here. There are several of us in Texas that do these. Some charge more than I do, some charge less. Yo pay your money and make your choice.



    </div></div>

    FWIW, TGTL has a bad ass trust. He is easy to deal with. I cannot count the number of trusts that I have sent in that were created by him and I have never had one kicked back. I have never had a customer complain about his services. All I have heard were folks singing his praises.

    I always tell people that a trust is worth the INVESTMENT. It protects you and your investments. It ensures that your investments will be looked after well after you have kicked the bucket and your family won't be left holding your NFA items wondering WTF they should do with them.

    On a side note...whether or not you go with a Trust, it is your responsibility to inform those who will be responsible for your estate when you die about the legalities of the NFA items that you possess. If you are going the individual route, I would suggest that in your will (everyone needs a will) you specifically list the items by make, model, and Ser# and who you want them to go to. That is my non-lawyerly advice.
    </div></div>

    I had Sean completely rework my original trust, which was done via quicken. Not only is Sean extremely knowledgeable on all things NFA, he also took the time to walk me through the "why's" of setting up a trust a certain way. Most definitely worth the price of admission for his expertise and insight alone. As well, the fees charged by him, and others like him, are negligible compared to the headache of things not being correct. When it comes to the ATF, I'm not in to mucking around. I want it done right the first time, with the support to fix any items that need fixing. My time, and my family's time, is worth more than that.
     

    Silenced America

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    Spade, everyone posting an example of their trust is something that most people don't take lightly. Sure, it can be redacted to hide names. Here is the problem...most people don't want someone else to have for free what they have paid for. If Joe spends $500 on a trust, he doesn't want to post it for Tom to have for free. Most Joes think that Tom needs to pay up for his own.

    It is like cheating in college...sure, most everyone does it, but I don't want you to cheat off of me. I studied and divised my own methods so you are not going to get a free ride off of my work.

    Lawyers sure as hell are not going to post their work and who can blame them? Ask them for an editable .doc or .rtf of your trust and see what they say. If you want to copy their work then you will need to re-type it.

    I understand where you are coming from. I even sympathize. Having a gun habbit is expensive. Guns are expensive, cans are expensive, and so are trusts. I think the problem is that a trust doen't perform any physical action like shooting or suppressing. It is just a necessary annoyance that is paying off someone's law school loans.
     

    KYS

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TxShooter63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I created my own with no issues. I was amazed it went through! </div></div>

    Good luck to you in the future.....
     

    DBohn

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    If TxShooter63 can create his own and have the ATF approve it, then what is the problem and what are people worried about that they have to have a lawyer write it up.

    Are they afraid the ATF or state will disapprove of it later or can they even do that? Are they afraid that their successors are going to fight over it and contest it and that it won't hold up in court?

    I'm going the trust route right now and I'm curious as to if something is good enough for the ATF to allow the transfer then where's the problem?
     

    raider1v1

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DBohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If TxShooter63 can create his own and have the ATF approve it, then what is the problem and what are people worried about that they have to have a lawyer write it up.

    Are they afraid the ATF or state will disapprove of it later or can they even do that? Are they afraid that their successors are going to fight over it and contest it and that it won't hold up in court?

    I'm going the trust route right now and I'm curious as to if something is good enough for the ATF to allow the transfer then where's the problem? </div></div>

    ok heres the deal. the examiners arent attorneys. most legal documentation can be created by non-attorneys. the issue is when it is reviewed by an attorney with working knoweldge of the law in the specific area. that is why you pay to have them do it vs you doing it or using a template.

    i just recently executed my NFA trust and it contains A LOT of info that wasnt in the quicken one that I was planning on using.

    sure it will pass inspection, but should it be necessary to have it reviewed by a BATFE attorney it will most likely not pass inspection and you may have penalties.

    this "most likely" vs "probably not" vs "eh its ok" is what people weigh when they opt to use a template trust vs having an attorney do one.

    for me, the deciding factor was asking myself:

    "How stupid will I feel if something ends up with a ton of paperwork, losing the item, court costs, hassle, etc...all to save $350?"

    My answer to myself was "I would feel very stupid." so i had an attorney do mine.
     

    timelinex

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silenced America</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spade, everyone posting an example of their trust is something that most people don't take lightly. Sure, it can be redacted to hide names. Here is the problem...most people don't want someone else to have for free what they have paid for. If Joe spends $500 on a trust, he doesn't want to post it for Tom to have for free. Most Joes think that Tom needs to pay up for his own.

    It is like cheating in college...sure, most everyone does it, but I don't want you to cheat off of me. I studied and divised my own methods so you are not going to get a free ride off of my work.

    Lawyers sure as hell are not going to post their work and who can blame them? Ask them for an editable .doc or .rtf of your trust and see what they say. If you want to copy their work then you will need to re-type it.

    I understand where you are coming from. I even sympathize. Having a gun habbit is expensive. Guns are expensive, cans are expensive, and so are trusts. I think the problem is that a trust doen't perform any physical action like shooting or suppressing. It is just a necessary annoyance that is paying off someone's law school loans. </div></div>
    No it's actually nothing like cheating.... I don't even see how you can draw that comparison. That's just purposely muddying the waters. Cheating is being dishonest, and there is no dishonesty in using someone else's trust as a template. You don't sign a contract saying you can't share the format of the Trust and the ATF doesn't give you recognition for the quality of your work. If that was the case, getting a lawyer to draw it up for you would be just as much cheating.

    Does Your line about not wanting to give for free something that you had to pay for really not sound wrong to you? There's a word for that thought process and it's called being selfish. Sure we all have that urge, and I dont like the feeling of Paying for something someone else gets for free either, but that doesn't mean it's right. That's like inventing the wheel and not sharing it to help the rest of the world bc you spent time thinking it up. If everyone had that line of thinking all patents would be indefinite, and you wouldn't be able to use your neighbors wrench without paying a leasing fee.

    Don't get me wrong, there are advantages of having a lawyer but it shouldn't be that they can copy past a couple lines from their template and fill in some blanks. The advantage of the lawyer should be the support they will give you and guidance if there are any problems. If you want it done right without a doubt, get a lawyer. I've hired a lawyer more than once, when I could of done something myself from online literature, but It was vital for it to be dine right and I didn't want to deal with the hassle.

    Lastly, <span style="font-weight: bold">this was not directed at you</span> or your character and I am generally referring to the attitude that everyone on this thread has shown. You might very well be the most unselfish guy on the forums, but maybe you have your own reasons for having your stance. If I was a lawyer I sure as hell wouldn't want to advise sharing my papers. But that wouldn't be because it's 'right' not to, but rather for selfish reasons of wanting customers to pay for my services. They aren't going to be going broke anytime soon because of the release of such trusts, those that are too cheap to get a lawyer will find other ways anyways(like quicken).

    Don't mind the spelling and capitalization mistakes, writing on the iPad is far from perfect!
     

    DBohn

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    I was going to use Quicken but now everyone has me worried and I'm leaning towards having a lawyer write it up.

    What needs to be added that Quicken leaves out? Does anyone know anybody or heard of someone that set one up themselves and had the ATF come down on them for some reason?

    Maybe it's stereotypical but if the lawyer just has to change something or add a little bit of text is he doing it to try and justify charging $350? Unless you really know the lawyer it could be written perfectly and they still could say they need to change something just to get some money out of you.
     

    timelinex

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DBohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was going to use Quicken but now everyone has me worried and I'm leaning towards having a lawyer write it up.

    What needs to be added that Quicken leaves out? Does anyone know anybody or heard of someone that set one up themselves and had the ATF come down on them for some reason?

    Maybe it's stereotypical but if the lawyer just has to change something or add a little bit of text is he doing it to try and justify charging $350? Unless you really know the lawyer it could be written perfectly and they still could say they need to change something just to get some money out of you. </div></div>
    Of course it's justified, because you are buying an educated persons time so regardless of whether it's worth it to you or not you have to pay for someone else's time. The question of is it worth it to you is a whole different story. I'm no expert in this topic, but I would recommend doing more due diligence on your own and don't be scared off by everyone. Usually those that yell the loudest and claim the sky will fall if you do something a certain way have ties in the industry and are biased or simply are in a different financial situation where it's a lot easier to pay than go through a due diligence.
     

    DBohn

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    What I'm asking is what's wrong with the Quicken version if the ATF is approving them? Who's going after these trusts? Obviously there have been people that have got their class 3 items transferred this way.

    I guess I'm missing the part where the trusts that the lawyers set up have tons of extra stuff in them that needs to be there when the ATF goes ahead and also approves the ones that don't have all the extra lawyer shit in them. So again, if the ATF says it's good to go, who else is there to worry about?
     

    mewillis

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    Some things to remember to make your trust valid.
    1. Have proper trustee's and successor trustees.
    2. Have something tangible ie; investments, a bank account, insurance policy etc. titled in the trusts name.
    3. Have it properly witnessed and notarized then follow your states law on need to file with the courts or not.

    Pretty simple really if you do it right. It does help to have one to look at that is valid. Just because a lawyer makes a super complicated trust and or it costs hundreds of dollars does not make a simple trust any less valid in the eyes of the law.
    To me the only reason to have a separate trust is if you have a very large amount of money in your trust, if not a willmaker is perfect IMO. I am my trusts trustee and trustee of 3 other family trusts in the past. Just do your homework.
     

    Graham

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Michigan you also have to register you're trust with the county courthouse, the lawyers name and bar# is required. So making you're own trust is not an option, unless you know a lawyer who will sign off on your home made one. </div></div>Really? Do you have a citation to EPIC that goes with that rule? Because I don't believe you.
     

    DBohn

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some things to remember to make your trust valid.
    1. Have proper trustee's and successor trustees.
    2. Have something tangible ie; investments, a bank account, insurance policy etc. titled in the trusts name.
    3. Have it properly witnessed and notarized then follow your states law on need to file with the courts or not.

    Pretty simple really if you do it right. It does help to have one to look at that is valid. Just because a lawyer makes a super complicated trust and or it costs hundreds of dollars does not make a simple trust any less valid in the eyes of the law.
    To me the only reason to have a separate trust is if you have a very large amount of money in your trust, if not a willmaker is perfect IMO. I am my trusts trustee and trustee of 3 other family trusts in the past. Just do your homework. </div></div>

    Thanks MEW. That's what I figured but after sitting and reading all these posts knocking a trust that's not set up by a lawyer I started second guessing myself.
     

    223ai

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    Graham's Rule #1 is a rule to live by, regardless. It's especially true with NFA items.
     

    bullelk6

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    money makes the world go round.greed is the worst of all evil.the whoe thin revolves around money.
     

    COLOSHOOTR

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I read it's only required that the Trust be a valid legal trust for a NFA item to be tranferred into it. I had an attorney, who does a lot of estate stuff, check a online trust from Nolo (Came with Willmaker) as well as another one made from legal software found at a local office supply store. He did say the Nolo one was better and had less unneeded stuff in it but if they had been signed and notarized both would be valid and legal allowing the transfer of a NFA item to the trust. On the other hand he said he would change some things on both and said there was unnecessary fluff in each.

    The point is both were legal and cost way less then $500. From what I understand about the expensive ones is they add the fluff that states if you die the beneficiary needs to do XY&Z to transfer the item/weapon legally and that they must be legally able to own the item. If you're that worried it's going to be messed up staple a copy of the ATF FAQ instructions to the trust with a note saying you have to do this if I die. Also make sure the beneficiary knows the proper way to do it before you reach that point. With a correct online trust and good instructions it seems you achieve the same objective for a fraction of the cost. Then again nobody who paid for one cares to share one of the expensive ones and prove me totally wrong about the "extra NFA specific stuff" thats a must have in a trust.
     

    Graham

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    Re: Living Trusts - Examples and Specimens

    An NFA trust is not only an estate planning tool, it's a method by which to ensure compliance with a body of federal law that has severe civil and criminal penalties for violating it.

    We live in a free country, and that means people are free to be fools, so go ahead: Roll the dice with NFA compliance and play lawyer all you want; I'm sure the latest version of Backyard Willmaker III, especially version 2.5, the one with Uncle Elmo's additions, will save you a few hundred bucks. Then you can sleep well knowing that with regard to your your irreplaceable NFA items you saved yourself the cost of a few tax stamps.
    wink.gif


    Brilliant!